You can't follow up "consistent positive reinforcement based conditioning" with punishment, and still call it consistent or proper positive reinforcement conditioning. I think everyone can agree that consistency is required on both ends of the training spectrum, and to successfully train through positive reinforcement you can't punish when they don't obey, then there is no consistent conditioning to eliminate punishment, and offering only praise and reward. Positive reinforcement training would tell you to be consistent, just as the type of training Mike is talking about. You can't condition a dog for good behavior using positive reinforcement, and then follow it up with punishment. Then you're associating the command with punishment, which is not positive reinforcement at all. If your dog says "...Naaah" it means you haven't set a clear enough expectation, so if you punish the dog when he comes back you are only reinforcing that he has every right to keep his distance. If people have different approaches to train, and it works with success, than I guess I'll just have to learn to bite my tongue on whether I agree on the techniques. But it seems like some people are saying "well, I tried positive reinforcement, but it works better if I use punishment", and to me that is no way to judge whether it is a successful method or not. Either you follow positive reinforcement consistently, because you will have the same results that Mike has using his methods, or not. But you can't just jump off of the boat when the water gets a little rough, and say that it doesn't work.
Your narrow mindedness is tragic.
This is what happens. I get out my clicker. I condition a new behavior until it's satisfactory. I begin training under distraction. This goes on for quite a while. I fade out food to a low rate of variable reinforcement. Etc, etc. Now, let's say this happens. Dogs sits 99% of the time. Great. One day, I say "sit" while the dog is sniffing pee - and I've commanded the dog into a sit from sniffing pee before. The dog's ear twitches, she looks up, then goes back to the pee. Collar correction. Praise and reward upon compliance.
This creates a dog with a good work ethic and a positive attitude about its work, but with a healthy respect for the wishes of its handler. And quite to the contrary, the ability to move fluidly between styles without confusing the dog is the mark of
great trainer. The fact that you believe you can’t combine styles and methods is just plain… scary. If you actually understand learning theory, you can combine anything because you know exactly what you’re doing. I run far and fast from trainers who think you have to stick with one training “recipe” – even when it’s not working! That tells me they don’t understand dogs; they’re just following a manual.
If you've read my posts, you'd know
I don't buy it. I think it's outdated and ridiculous to state that any time a dog does not comply, it is because the dog does not understand my expectations. I think that's MOST of the time, but not all of time. When my dog does not understand, we go back a step. When she blows me off, she's in trouble. A little trouble, not a lot, but a little. I think it’s flat out derogatory to dogs to act as though they can make the decision that they don’t feel like complying. We are essentially using a psychological model that has been long thrown out as debunked in humans on our dogs. Why? There is increasing evidence of their cognitive abilities…
And please, I'm not dumb enough to call the dog to me and punish it.
Seriously. It's become quite clear you don't even understand how a balanced trainer uses a correction in a motivational-based training program. It's honestly humorous you're trying to tell me that how I train "doesn't work" and that I can't "eliminate punishment".
Number 1: Punishment is self-eliminating, that's the operant definition of
punishment. If it doesn't deter the behavior it's not punishment, it's just bad dog training.
Number 2: I've got off leash obedience with the dog sitting at about 95-97% reliability. Heel, sit, down, long stays, recall, down on recall, sit and down out of motion. So please, tell me training doesn't work. Please tell me again. ...Please? (And yes, I can get you a video of you want. Where? Neighborhood park? Pet store?) I want you to see how my dog works consistently and with a big wagging tail.
I'm gonna be real honest here, Michael, and say that this conversation does not particularly interest me. I have discussed with positive only crowd before, and there is nothing you can say that will be new to me or enlighten me. And you're exposing some glaring gaps in your knowledge, which is making this less than fun.
