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Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..

I have phoned the vet numerous times to get the hystopahology results for my back milk and I still have not recieved it. It's all been done, but I don't have the report in my hand to look at.
 
Tula_Montage said:
I have phoned the vet numerous times to get the hystopahology results for my back milk and I still have not recieved it. It's all been done, but I don't have the report in my hand to look at.
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Did you get Windsor's viral panel back yet? If not, has the vet given any reasons why it would take so long? If you do have the viral panel, did it show any positive results for any viruses? Which viruses were tested for?

I am not interested in the histopathology for the black milk or the bacterial results (as I feel bacterial information is not really relevant from a "contagious" point of view, so it's of no gain to anyone else but you and Lynn in the treatment of your own animals), but the viral panel results would be much appreciated.
 
I personally think a request for the viral panel results is reasonable, in the light of breeding plans for next year, Elle. You stated that the vet suggested suspending trading until the results were known. In order for herpers in your area or who may have had snakes pass though in transit and stored at Lynnes to move on, they really need those results.
I noticed that you now plan to go ahead with your breeding plans, so that would seem to indicate that the virus isn't present in your collection?
 
There are no viral panel results as far as I am aware. I have questioned the vets about this and they didn't really tell me anything. I will phone up later today to confirm whether there is actually a viral panel to come (which I was told there was, and it was written on the autopsy).

I do feel that the hystopathology for my black milk is extremely important because it was able to identify bacterias present in a sick snake BEFORE baytril was administered. They could only identify the pathogen in Windsor.

They have not confirmed in any way shape or form that it is a virus/bacteria/fungus however they have not ruled out the possibility of these either. Once I have talked to the vet again and confirmed all my OWN questions I will then get round to typing up the autopsy report.

I still have the intention of breeding my corns next year as I am confident that no more snakes are sick at the moment. And Windsor didn't have any inclusion bodies present which at least rules out IBD and Paramyxovirus.
 
Tula_Montage said:
I still have the intention of breeding my corns next year as I am confident that no more snakes are sick at the moment. And Windsor didn't have any inclusion bodies present which at least rules out IBD and Paramyxovirus.
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thats a change from one of your previous statements, i cant remember if it was on this thread on on the UK one.

sounds like with the information you had back so far, and the fact that you are going ahead with breeding your snakes that the RI issues were nothing more serious than that. i also noticed that you posted pics of the milksnake eating a meal since his recent health issues.

would it be possible for you to list here what reports you have had back from the vet so far to save us having to wade back through the threads to pick up shreds of info here and there. to be honest i would have thought that all the reports/results would have been complete by now.
 
All I have in my hand is the gross autopsy report and the hystopathology for Windsor. Thats it...

The report suggests that Windsor had pneumonia... however it also mentions legions on the brain, in the lungs (of course) and in the heart or either the liver. I don't have the report with me just now but it was deffinatley another vital organ. I believe that this is probably NOT a virus which is why I am continuing with my modest breeding plans.
 
Glad to hear you are a little more settled Elle. I hope others will feel the same soon also.

Lynne - if you read this, how is the little royal getting on? Haven't been ablet o catch you on MSN :(
 
I thought brain lesions were a positive sign for paramyxovirus? Not to be expected in a simple RI?
I hope you are clear of any nasties, so you can carry on with enjoying your collection now. Selling hatchlings may be difficult unless you are definately clear though.
 
Tula_Montage said:
There are no viral panel results as far as I am aware. I have questioned the vets about this and they didn't really tell me anything. I will phone up later today to confirm whether there is actually a viral panel to come (which I was told there was, and it was written on the autopsy).
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Are you saying that maybe Windsor wasn't tested for any viruses after all? If so ... then that is absolutely outrageous.

Your vet was apparently very concerned that this was viral:

"The vet agreed that his condition was too far gone and he was unsaveable. The infection has most probably turned viral and theres no cure for viruses in reptiles"

"The vet is extremely concerned that this is indeed viral. Theres also serious concerns that this is the first public reports of an outbreak of PARAMYXOVIRUS. "

In fact, at one point the vet confirmed to you he had done at requested at least one viral test:

"Phoned the vet to ask him to test for Paramyxovirus and he already said hes done it as it was a corncern."

"I agree, but when you have vets telling you THEY suspect it's a virus and are telling the labs to test for paramyxovirus then desperate times call for desperate measures."

"Lynn phoned the vet today and he told the labs down south to test for paramyxovirus after he opened him up as there were signs of it."

It just doesn't make any sense that there would be no viral testing done. As you said yourself earlier on, you can't risk bringing anything else into your collection until all the results are back, and you will not be breeding this year unless the tests on your other snakes all come back. Since the vet advised all trade was ceased until the results were back, surely he realised the significance of getting full and complete testing done?

If everything above is a true reflection of what the vet has told you and STILL no viral panels were done, I would seriously be considering legal action against your vet. It would be negligence for him to somehow forget to run viral panels after you not only paying for them, but after he told you he'd requested the tests due to strongly suspecting a virus himself.
 
Toyah, I don't know what to say. The vet I need to speak to is not in today, and when I last spoke to him about 2 weeks ago he told me the results over the phone, and said they would be sent out. I have still not received them. I have not asked to see if there is anything else coming back for Windsor, I assumed there was as the report says other results pending. I spoke to the vet in person with the autopsy with us and he said it doesn't really say much... that it just doesn't look like paramyxo. But of course they are covering themselves at the moment by saying it was a possibility.

He told me face to face they DID test for parmyxo, but I have no evidence in my hand to say that they did. I will deffinatley be chasing them up about this, and I will be absolutely infuriated if there has been no viral panel done!

I have no plans for any more purchases this year, and I have no plans for breeding for another 2-3 months yet. I am confident from what my vet has said to me, and from his report that this was a case of advanced RI and phumonia. Which is a sigh of relief for me and you. I sincerely apologize for the stress we have both been under, probably quite unnecessarily. I did overreact, but if it means more people are aware of these kinds of dieases, and the importance of quarantine then at least some lessons were learnt.
 
I agree from the information I have been given that it was "just" an RI, leading to pneumonia, and I imagine that it was never a coincidence that him and the two other boids came down with severe RIs at the time the weather got cold in the Glasgow area - incorrect temperatures lead to RIs, and a quick change of outside temperature is enough to knock off the temperature indoors ... if it had just been one snake, then "Windsor-specific" factors might come into play, but that would be a stupidly long stretch to make when it involves four different animals. It was a real shame that Windsor didn't get any treatment until at least a week after his first respiratory symptoms, and I have to admit to both crying and being incredibly angry when I realised that his decline and eventual euthanisation was most likely due to him being given no treatment or antibiotics at all for the last two weeks of his life (I had initially thought he was being given antibiotics and got worse despite them).

Personally, I think the posts on a virus scare with no evidence of a virus whatsoever were not a very efficient way of emphasising the importance of quarantine and correct husbandry - there would have been better and less alarmist ways of doing that, if that was your original hope. I do think (and hope) that the main lesson to come out of this will be the importance of prompt, targetted, continuing, and aggressive treatment for respiratory infections in snakes.


I guess all we can do now is wait until you speak to the vet concerned and find out if they bothered to run any viral panels on Windsor, Shug, Princess, or Noir - you'd think with all their concern regarding viruses they'll have remembered to run the tests on one of the four snakes they've seen. If they haven't ... then you need to decide what to do from there, whether you have enough evidence to *know* it isn't paramyxovirus.

If there is a chance it could have been, then Noir as a recovered snake could shed the virus in the next 10 months. If it's definitely not, then you should probably think of writing some sort of "statement" to be cross posted onto different forums as the original panic regarding the virus was. Not everyone will be reading this thread, or even realise that there was never any evidence of a virus, they will just have seen parts of the discussion and got confused, or read the beginning and not the middle (and there's no end yet for them to read).
 
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I agree Toyah, I should have got him there sooner and he should have had far more aggressive treatment. However I was not offered this. When I took him in on the final day, I was advised to just let him go there and then. I was infuriated to find out that later on by a different vet that he would have peronsonally attempted to treat Windsor. However the other vet had told him that I had other snakes in my collection and he wasn't "just a pet". When in fact he was indeed.

I don't know if you have ever seen my personal setup, but my "reptile" room is kept above 75f at all times, with one stat per box. I am an anal temperature checker (that sounded awful, but you know what I mean) so I know that his internal environment was spot on... a little too warm actually. Temperature drops of course can be a factor... as can stress, low immunity, changes in environment. It makes sense, being moved from one home and to another where his body was forced into action due to my heavy feeding regime to get him back to a normal body weight.

It's a damn tough lesson to learn, and after I have spoken to the vets which did indeed suggest it was viral and were acting very concenred then I will post everything I have. Which in all honesty isn't as lot - especially for the price of these kinds of autopy's and tests.
 
All I can say is, good lord.
This has been covered in monstrous depth on here and rfuk.
Jokes aside, but it could be made into a film one day.
All that matters, in the end, that AS SOON AS the results are available that they are all told, on a thread, on here, on rfuk, on every forum in the world if possible.
Everyone should know, a shortened, concise version of this epic and what came of it.
We need to stand strong as a community, to tackle things like this, no matter if were in USA or UK or Japan or South Africa, it affects us all.
I hope normality can return, and that we all think for the best, and think postively about this.
just my 2 pennies
 
How could your vet possibly not perform viral panel, when paramyxo virus was suspected and specifically mentioned as a possible outbreak, and other vets were being warned to test for it? If there were brain lesions, then surely that would be evidence for more than a simple RI?
I'm really not trying to give you a hard time, but that just doesn't make sense.
 
Perhaps you should change your vet. Not doing the tests you asked for and paid for is fraud, and very un professional to say the least.
I'll phone them up later and ask what were they thinking. Surly they must realise how important this is..
MIKE
 
snakewispera snr said:
Perhaps you should change your vet. Not doing the tests you asked for and paid for is fraud, and very un professional to say the least.
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Well, assuming that the vet has not done a viral panel (Elle still needs to call the vet to confirm this), this is not the only mistake Lynn and Elle have blamed on the vet. This is on top of what Lynn said earlier, that the vet made a mistake in not doing bacterial tests on her snake until after antibiotic treatment. And Elle comments in her last post that the vet did not even offer her more aggressive treatment for Windsor (the treatment given was no cultures or sensitivity testing done, just two weeks of baytril, then two weeks of no treatment at all, then euthanisation), and that he was put to sleep when another vet would have attempted treatment. This does seem to make the vet out to look very bad (which is odd as I've only heard good things about this vet practice before).

If Noir was ill with paramyxovirus and is now recovered, he will continue to shed the virus for up to ten months. I am sure the vet would do a full viral panel on him and get a rush on the results in order to provide a more conclusive answer - after the trio of major errors blamed on this vet practice I am sure they would be happy to try and fix at least one of them for you.


Edited to add: I just want to make it clear that I am NOT blaming the vet for any of these alleged errors - I am simply going off the information provided by Elle and Lynn. I have never used this particular vets as I have had no reason to, but if I did have an ill snake I would not hesitate to take my own snakes to this practice.
 
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snakewispera snr said:
Perhaps you should change your vet. Not doing the tests you asked for and paid for is fraud, and very un professional to say the least.
I'll phone them up later and ask what were they thinking. Surly they must realise how important this is..
MIKE
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It would be interesting to hear the vets point of view...

to my knowledge the practice that elle and lynn took their snakes to has very solid reputation when it comes to the treatment of reptiles as well as other exotics, they run two practices in central scotland one in falkirk and the other in cumbernauld, there are vets in scotland who will refer their clients to this practice if they feel they are unable to deal with any reptiles that are brought into their practices.

also if i recall correctly one of the practices partners has been involved in IBD studies with glasgow university vet school for a number of years.

i know of several keepers (of which three have at least a 10 year history) who have used this practice and would thoroughly recommend them.
 
I do not doubt the vets integrity or reputation at all... and I would not hesitate on taking any reps back for treatment. But I will be phoning to confirm EXACTLY what they tested for and what they didn't.
 
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