Temperatures influence gender?

[desertanimal]

Well I guess if I don't go w/ the flow , its called arguing !
( I knew there was reason why I don't frequent the forums )


No , I don't think you see what I am looking for , what I want is blkkat to provide me with the info that made her so confident on the statement she made. I don't want YOU to provide me with the info.

She was so confident in her statements that I thought she would have some facts to back it up. And not have some one else provide documentation.

oh well ...maybe another time.
I'll drop it here because I don't appreciate it when I try to have a discussion and get accused of "arguing". And I think she just made a statement and has nothing to back it up.

Well, I never said arguing was a bad thing. I said I couldn't help you with arguing. I, myself, am prone to arguing, and sometimes quite enjoy it. In fact, I would argue that that's what I'm doing right now--arguing. I just don't think arguing is a terrible thing to be avoided. I do it at parties wiht my best friends. I feel passionately about logic and reasonable actions, and I will argue a position at the proverbial drop of a hat. I don't take my balls home when someone calls it arguing, because a spade's a spade, after all. I keep throwing my balls just as hard as I can until I've won or lost or given up. I think this metaphor might be heading in directions I don't want it to, and so I shall abandon it . . .

But let me restate what I think you've said here, to be sure I'm clear. Are you saying that you are NOT actually interested in taking a look at the data that may pertain to whether or not TSD occurs in cornsnakes and are ONLY interested in having blkkat back up her statements? I believe that's how the above reads.

I assumed that you were actually interested in knowing more about the topic at hand and I guessed that you were ALSO interested in arguing with blkkat. I may have been incorrect; according to your last post you are only interested in the latter. I made no judgements in my post about the rectitude of either pursuit, but recognized explicitly that in this case, the two are fundamentally different lines of investigation and require different courses of action. One, I can help with, the other, I cannot. I can't get blkkat to cough up references any more easily than you.

I simply coughed up one to help with the first issue, and bowed out on the second.

I'm sorry you took umbrage at my apparently accusatory post. If it makes you feel any better, just think of it as discussion and going against the flow.

 

[homegrownherps]

Well, I never said arguing was a bad thing. I said I couldn't help you with arguing. I, myself, am prone to arguing, and sometimes quite enjoy it. In fact, I would argue that that's what I'm doing right now--arguing. I just don't think arguing is a terrible thing to be avoided. I do it at parties wiht my best friends. I feel passionately about logic and reasonable actions, and I will argue a position at the proverbial drop of a hat. I don't take my balls home when someone calls it arguing, because a spade's a spade, after all. I keep throwing my balls just as hard as I can until I've won or lost or given up. I think this metaphor might be heading in directions I don't want it to, and so I shall abandon it . . .

But let me restate what I think you've said here, to be sure I'm clear. Are you saying that you are NOT actually interested in taking a look at the data that may pertain to whether or not TSD occurs in cornsnakes and are ONLY interested in having blkkat back up her statements? I believe that's how the above reads.

I assumed that you were actually interested in knowing more about the topic at hand and I guessed that you were ALSO interested in arguing with blkkat. I may have been incorrect; according to your last post you are only interested in the latter. I made no judgements in my post about the rectitude of either pursuit, but recognized explicitly that in this case, the two are fundamentally different lines of investigation and require different courses of action. One, I can help with, the other, I cannot. I can't get blkkat to cough up references any more easily than you.

I simply coughed up one to help with the first issue, and bowed out on the second.

I'm sorry you took umbrage at my apparently accusatory post. If it makes you feel any better, just think of it as discussion and going against the flow.

A great way to look at it I suppose.

Yes I am very interested in TSD info. and would appreciate any info you could pass along.

But I am VERY interested in the info blkkat used as a reference to determine her decision as well.

Thanks in advance for your time.

 

[stephen]

Homegrownherps

I agree with you Jim about what you have stated here,in my experience the higher the temps the more males hatch out.I do suggest 80 degree temps and the reason is not to produce more females.I have found that the longer the corn stays in the egg the healthier the snake.One year all my clutches stayed in there eggs between 70 to 75 days and I had most all good feeders.I think I only hatched out about 150 corns that year but I think only one refused to eat ,luck maybe?

 

[cornmorphs]

i'm not going to read 5 pages, but i know there is a guy in England that has been doing this for years with several species inc snakes.. he has been getting 100% female clutches every time.

 

[Ssthisto]

I'm glad you're done with this thread. because you're not getting the point.

I incubated at 82 got 50/50
Your buddy incubated at 84 & got a high count of females
Meg / Steven incubated at 80 & got a high count of females
Kat incubated at 86 degrees & got a high count of females

Do you see with the temps & sex what is wrong? High counts of females were produced at both mid & high incubation temperatures. And this is shown with only 5 different results.

I'm pretty sure that is impossible. Also, if that were the case, then everyone saying they're getting males at higher temperatures (which would be correct for TSD) again points that it is not TSD. Their is too much variation for TSD to be a factor. That is my point!

Interesting to note that in most TSD species (including crocodiles and leopard geckos), it's not as simple as "low temp = female, high temp = male"...

It's "low temp = female. Medium-high temp = male. High temp = 'hot' female"

I've got at least one "hot" female leopard gecko - she's masculinised in body shape (very heavy head and neck, and one of my males treats her AS a male), but she has laid (apparently infertile) eggs and become egg-bound - so she's definitely biologically and partly functionally female. I don't have any definite hatchlings from her, and due to her propensity to get egg-bound, I never will.

So it'd be interesting, as others have pointed out, to try a LARGE number of corn clutches at temperatures from "might as well stick 'em in the fridge" to "are we incubating these or cooking them?". The two extreme ends will have particularly low hatch rates, but it'd be interesting to see the ratios coming out of the egg along the curve.

Only way I see that happening, though, is if someone's got a lot of low-sales-value-potential clutches they're willing to 'waste'.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I apologize for my delay, for some reason I did not receive the TRN. :shrugs:

Could it be that sex is determined before the eggs are laid, and depending on the temps the gravid female is kept could possibly determine the sex

That is NOT what TSD is. TSD is INCUBATION temperatures.

Again, for the 10 billionth time...IF it was TSD, their would not be high ratios of female (or male) at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I also do not need "references" for what is obvious.

desertanimal, if you still have access to the documentation you mentioned, I would at least like to take a look at it.

 

[homegrownherps]

I apologize for my delay, for some reason I did not receive the TRN. :shrugs:



That is NOT what TSD is. TSD is INCUBATION temperatures.

Again, for the 10 billionth time...IF it was TSD, their would not be high ratios of female (or male) at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I also do not need "references" for what is obvious.

desertanimal, if you still have access to the documentation you mentioned, I would at least like to take a look at it.

Ok , here's an easier request. Send me your research data on which you made your conclusion.
(I'm not keeping track of how many times I've asked you)

I would like to know how long you've been conducting this study and YOUR results.

 

[desertanimal]

Hey. I still have it. I'll send it over the weekend after our visiting lemur primatologist leaves town. Remember it's not about TSD per se, but has references pertaining to TSD.

p.s. You'll need to PM me your email address because I can't attach something to emails I send through the cornsnake page.

 

[PnyKlr]

At that, if TSD was involved with Cornsnakes, I believe it would have been identified long ago.

I will preface my statement with this: I am not a breeder, so I can't give any specifics.

As a buyer, however, I often see people selling lone females at a much higher price than lone males, and only dropping the price if a pair is being purchased. Sometimes, lone females aren't sold because there "aren't enough" of them. If gender is determined by incubation temperature (which also effects the time-in-egg, right?), wouldn't breeders have noticed the trend and looked into achieving a better male-female ratio?

Breeders like Don (where I bought my snakes) turn out so many clutches that they would be blind not to notice a trend, right?

Just my two cents.


:-offtopic My fishies, on the other hand, have their genders determined by both temperature AND pH during the first 3 weeks of their lives. Interesting...

 

[homegrownherps]

A statement was made that sex is determined in the first two weeks of incubation. Can it be that incubation temps do NOT play a role in sex ratio outcome?
And the temps the female is kept last two week prior to the eggs being laid are what determine the sex. Which would mean they are already determined BEFORE they even hit the incubator.

I just believe that there has not been enough research done to determine either way if sex can be determined by incubation temps.

 

[PnyKlr]

But once again it, for me, boils down to the large breeders and their results. Assuming that most breeders keep snakes in racks where the temps are regulated and constant, wouldn't a recognizable trend show up? If all females are kept at the same (constant) temps, then there clutch ratios should be similar.

The simplest answer, or theory, is generally the right one. If it doesn't work "all of the time," then it's not accurate.

 

[homegrownherps]

But once again it, for me, boils down to the large breeders and their results. Assuming that most breeders keep snakes in racks where the temps are regulated and constant, wouldn't a recognizable trend show up? If all females are kept at the same (constant) temps, then there clutch ratios should be similar.

The simplest answer, or theory, is generally the right one. If it doesn't work "all of the time," then it's not accurate.

What do you mean by "large" breeders ?

Even in rack systems , temps are not consistant. the top holes in a rack system differ for the temps in the bottom holes by several degrees.

I produce about 700-800 eggs, and I do see a difference in the sex's when the incubation temps are lower.
I have not purposely tried to incubate my snakes for sex, but I have noticed a higher ratio of females when I incubate at a lower temp.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

My fishies, on the other hand, have their genders determined by both temperature AND pH during the first 3 weeks of their lives. Interesting...

That really IS interesting. I never realy considered how sex was determined in fish.

A statement was made that sex is determined in the first two weeks of incubation. Can it be that incubation temps do NOT play a role in sex ratio outcome?

I was referring to TSD with that statement. Reread the thread.

I also have been saying that TSD does not apply here, the same thing you post in the quote above. :shrugs:

 

[PnyKlr]

IMO it would take a lot of tracking by a lot of people before anyone could even suggest that the sex is temperature dependant.

If results can not be easily repeated in further studies, then it is coincidence.

If one person says "I see a correlation between gender and incubation temperature," and two others say "I haven't seen anything that can be repeated easily," then its a non-issue.

I see it like people thinking identical twinning is hereditary. It has not been prooven one way or the other (that I know of) but studies have shown that most multiple identical-twinning within a family is purely coincidental ("skipping a generation").


But I'm rambling now...

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

If results can not be easily repeated in further studies, then it is coincidence.

We like to thank Murphy when that happens.

If one person says "I see a correlation between gender and incubation temperature," and two others say "I haven't seen anything that can be repeated easily," then its a non-issue.

Very pleased to see you get my point. Their is an inconsistency in results which points to results that say it is not TSD.

 

[Joejr14]

Funny how when someone wants some specific information about YOUR results, you get defensive and rude, Stephanie.

Jim didn't attack, he wasn't rude, he just disagreed with you. You could have simply answered the questions and ended this 10 posts ago, instead no..

Last time I checked, Jim has WAY more experience than you do with breeding snakes. I have no idea how you can definitively say 'Corns are without a doubt not TSD' based on what, 4 or 5 clutches?

This whole thread kills me. For all the smart people here, only Stephen and Jim have brought up this point. In ALL rack systems, temperatues are very different on the bottom rack compared to the top rack. Normally, by a few degrees. Do you think incubators hold a constant temperature 24/7? Not sure how we would be able to say with 100% accuracy since I bet most of us are using crappy $10 therms from Walmart.

TSD in croc nests are normally seperated by layers---but it's not a rule. It's a nest, and temps flucuate---just like they do in our ""static"" incubating containers and rack systems. Do you think a clutch of eggs in a container is all going to incubate at 85 degrees because that's what the therm says? LoL. That's comical.

IMO it would take a lot of tracking by a lot of people before anyone could even suggest that the sex is temperature dependant.

Absolutely. But to beat your chest and enter a thread and say "no way are corns TSD" is just as ridiculous as saying you're positive that they are.

If one person says "I see a correlation between gender and incubation temperature," and two others say "I haven't seen anything that can be repeated easily," then its a non-issue.

Huh? It's a discussion forum---everything is an issue that should be discussed.

Very pleased to see you get my point. Their is an inconsistency in results which points to results that say it is not TSD.

First off, it's THERE. Secondly, and again, eggs in a box are not all at the same temperature. You cannot flat out say that without a doubt corns are not TSD.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Funny how when someone wants some specific information about YOUR results, you get defensive and rude, Stephanie.

Jim didn't attack, he wasn't rude, he just disagreed with you. You could have simply answered the questions and ended this 10 posts ago, instead no.

I'm tired of repeating myself. I answered what was needed to be answered, and a few posted their results as well. I disagree with your opinion on Jim's posts. I felt he was being argumentive.

Last time I checked, Jim has WAY more experience than you do with breeding snakes. I have no idea how you can definitively say 'Corns are without a doubt not TSD' based on what, 4 or 5 clutches?

The inconsistances in the clutches in this thread are proof enough.

First off, it's THERE.

Don't be a snot, Joe.

You cannot flat out say that without a doubt corns are not TSD.

Yes, I can. Want me to say it some more for you? :shrugs:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I am done with this thread. I refuse to continue to go around in circles with what is obvious. For those who wish to believe that Cornsnakes are TSD, more power to you!

 

[PnyKlr]

Huh? It's a discussion forum---everything is an issue that should be discussed.

Who's to decide what's an "issue." It is subjective, and there is also a point where one would cede to the other based on the information presented (once an "outcome" has been determined).

The point of my statement was more from a scientific view. What I meant was if there is more evidence (on a more "global scale" than the three people I mentioned) pointing to an issue being coincidence than there is evidence showing a temperature correlation, then it is a "non-issue."

I've said before that I have never bred snakes (or anything other than fish) nor am I taking sides, but with as many years as people have been doing this more people should have seen a correlation between temps and sex if it were more than coincidence. Look at all of the different morphs that have been bred!

It appears, at the moment, that evidence is leaning towards the "not temperature dependant" side of the issue. But once again, in order for the results to be reliable, one would have to track the temperatures (and fluctuations) of every egg over the course of many clutches.


*I'm sorry if I, too, have any grammatical errors and I apologize for any word mis-use*. [/smartaleck]

 

[homegrownherps]

Blkkat your saying that sex in corn snakes can not be determined by incubation temps. So I have asked you several times to provide me with some type of research data that you have conducted. So far you've provided nothing but a website about gecko breeding and sex ratios for several of your clutches ( I didn't go back and count but I think it was about 8-10 clutches ), as well as several other clutches of snakes from ...was 1 or 2 other breeders.

WHERES YOUR PROOF ( FROM CLUTCHES YOU HATCHED OUT ) THAT TEMPS DO NOT DETERMINE SEX ??

You're entitled to your opinion , just as I am ...and thats exactly what you have ...an opinion, and no actual research data of your own.

Its a very simple question that you've been avoiding from the start.
As I mentioned before ...I am on the fence on this subject and have not done enough of my experimenting to decide either way. But you on the other hand seem to have conducted enough research and experimentation with this to be able to come to a conclusion.

So please share your records.

Yes it would take allot of recording keeping by several breeders, before any conclusions can be made. So from the sounds of it Blkkat has done all this.
How many clutches of corn snakes did blkkat use to conduct this experiment.
How long has blkkat been working on it?

I don't know what others incubate their eggs at, I know what I do. And I can most definitely say that when I lowered the incubation temps that I hatched out a higher ratio of females. Next season I will do the same and gladly share my results w/ any one that wants to know.


Blkkat ......you CAN NOT say definitely that corns are not TSD WITHOUT some sort of proof.


PnyKlr....... It's an issue as long as people have an intrest in it and want to discuss it. As far as cedeing ....well, I am still waiting for blkkat to send/or post the data in which they came to their conclusion.

And what I understand you to be sayng is that even if I produce a higher ratio of females - several seasons consistently that it would still be "coincidence" because a "world wide" study has not proven it either way. ( which to my knowledge has not happened )

You said "Look at all the different morphs that have been bred" ....I may have missed it, but what does that have to do with TSD ?

You also mention .... that evidence is leaning towards the "not temperature dependant" side of the issue.
I ask ..who's evidence, what evidence?
Because w/ my personal experience I see it differently.


Blkkat ...if it seems this thread is going in circles , its because you still avoid the the question.

Either you have the info or you don't. If you don't, you cant possibly say either way TSD can be done with corn snakes and then your statement just becomes your opinion.. If you do have proof/data please share it w/ us.