vet info on eggbinding, any thoughts?

[Kali]

I had to go to my vet recently as my beautifull MBK Cruella had gotten eggbound. It already had gotten quite serious and in the end he had to cut her open to get everything out and clean the mess up. Several eggs had opened inside of her, wasn't looking good, but she's slowly getting better now fortunately.

I did leave it too long before going to the vet, one of the reasons it already was so serious, so I asked him how long I could leave it before I best go to the vet should it ever happen again (hope not!).
He said that when a slug (or fertilised egg) is laid and nothing else comes out in one or two days, you best go as then there is the most chance the injection would work.
So I wanted to know how you can determine egg binding when no egg is laid first. He said he had never come upon that problem, that there is always at least the one egg laid before stopping and getting into trouble.

Now this vet is a well-known specialist in reptiles (and fish) out here, and from what I've heard about him and experienced myself, he is really a guy to be trusted. But I had never heard about the 'at least one egg laid' so I thought let's ask other people too
So what's your experience with this? For the people that have had egg-bound females, did they always lay a first egg before getting in trouble?

I especially am anxious now, because my amel motley/stripe het caramel female Donatella has laid a slug today and nothing else yet If it stays like this, you can be sure that monday morning I'll be at the vet's with her this time!

Now the story started with my MBK, but the eggbinding question is for corns too, so I put it here. If it's not right, any mod can feel free to move it where it belongs.

 

[Pasodama]

I don't have an answer, for you, on laying at least one egg before egg binding ever occurs. I can see why he would say that (most experience probably does happen that way) but I would believe that egg binding could happen at any time during the process of egg laying (such as even before one egg is laid).
As for your female, who has laid one slug and nothing else yet, ... it is not uncommon for a female ... for example ... to lay a slug one day, and maybe another slug the next day (or even a couple of days later), before the day that they actually lay the actual bulk of, or entire, clutch.

 

[Kali]

Thanks for your answer Pasodama, but it confuses me even more
As for the first part, I too thought that egg binding could occur whenever, that's why I was confused at what he said...
The second part... well there is a chance that I could have prevented my MBK to have to go through that quite heavy operation, had I come in sooner. So now I wouldn't want to wait too long . My vet said two days max. Is that not correct? Like I said, he is a good vet, and I do trust him, but it's hard to choose what to do when it could make such a difference for the snake...

 

[Pasodama]

The second part... well there is a chance that I could have prevented my MBK to have to go through that quite heavy operation, had I come in sooner. So now I wouldn't want to wait too long . My vet said two days max. Is that not correct? Like I said, he is a good vet, and I do trust him, but it's hard to choose what to do when it could make such a difference for the snake...

As long as you do not see an egg pressing (to get out) at her vent area, I wouldn't worry too much. As I had mentioned (in previous post), it isn't uncommon for a female to lay a slug, and perhaps lay another slug (or two) a day or two later, before the day that she lays the entire clutch. It is "normal".
If she hasn't laid anything else (after laying a slug), within a week, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have her checked out.

Now, OTOH, if she started to lay eggs (esp. fertile eggs), and, suddenly, stops laying while there are still eggs in her ... I, myself, would do something, about it, within two days. Not that something couldn't be done a wee bit later, than two days, but my thoughts are that it would be better, for the female, to not wait longer to do something.
Also, I wouldn't wait more than a day to do something about an egg being stuck at, and pressing against, the vent area.. if other measures (such as a swim or light exercise), to entice passing of the egg, does not work.
Others may do things slightly different but this is, basically, what I follow.

 

[SnakeAround]

I 'diagnose' egg binding if at least one egg has lowered so much it is really visible as a lump close to the vent yet not coming out soon after. From what I have seen at my females, there never is a lump showing near the vent the evening (or a couple of hours) before they start a regular session of egg laying. During a regular session eggs come out like every half an hour max I think, but usually faster, towards the end it might slow down. So, if you see a lump close the vent, and it does not come out within a couple of ours, I consider it to be egg binding. Then the dilemma of what to do starts.... This season I had one case so far and waiting a week before consulting the vet worked; she layed a couple on her own and the vet got two out easily by deflating and them massaging it out, they were close to the vent. Maybe leaving her be would have worked too, as could have going to the vet a.s.a.p.... one simply does not know.The eggs had started to go bad, so the vet said it was a good decision to get them out instead of just waiting. She is not a fan of letting nature do its thing, far from that, and she is an experienced snake keeper and heavily specialized in reptile medical care. Yet some very experienced breeders say it's the best thing you can do...

Then the situation with the pre-laying expelling of slugs; in my (limited) experience with it, a female lays a slug, usually 'wax like', without a shell I suppose, and a couple of days later the actual laying starts. No egg lowers to the vent until the actual laying.

 

[VIRAGI]

Either way, dont wait please more than two days...I would say none. My corn I had to put her to sleep because i waited one week. I did not know I thought it was too early that she laid that one egg. So sad now I regret and I hated to see her suffering so I put her to sleep. That one egg she laid has a purpose.
Good luck with your girls and keep us posted.

 

[SnakeAround]

I'd like to add that in case of egg binding of many eggs (like 5-6 or more, depending on other factors like how low they are), I'd go to a vet quite soon indeed, I lost two snakes to binding of many eggs last year Even though the vet and me aspirated, massaged and what not...

 

[Kali]

Well, with Cruella, the MBK, the case was this: she laid one slug, and then stopped. No eggs seemed to be pressing at the vent. After a week I went to the vet. He tried it first with an injection, but said that he didn't think it would still work. One more slug came out, but then it stopped again. After that he operated on her, got the eggs out, cleaned everything as some of the eggs had opened. She was heavily infected by then. I gave her antibiotics for two weeks after that. She was very weak at first, but slowly got stronger. She's not really her old self yet, but is getting there.
After this, you might understand why I'm not keen on waiting a week after laying a slug. I'm thinking better too soon than too late here...? I suppose every case is different...

 

[SnakeAround]

Well, with Cruella, the MBK, the case was this: she laid one slug, and then stopped. No eggs seemed to be pressing at the vent. After a week I went to the vet. He tried it first with an injection, but said that he didn't think it would still work. One more slug came out, but then it stopped again. After that he operated on her, got the eggs out, cleaned everything as some of the eggs had opened. She was heavily infected by then. I gave her antibiotics for two weeks after that. She was very weak at first, but slowly got stronger. She's not really her old self yet, but is getting there.
After this, you might understand why I'm not keen on waiting a week after laying a slug. I'm thinking better too soon than too late here...? I suppose every case is different...

Indeed, that's what makes this si difficult to deal with...

 

[Pasodama]

True enough ... what is, typically, something "normal" (or what should not cause much concern or should not pose a problem) could go awry with some snake at some point in time ... a fluke. So, while the best guidelines can be given, anything can happen that does not follow the norm.
Your MBK seems to have been outside the "norm" and, who knows, maybe the slugs/eggs were retained, within her, for a little longer than you thought... always a possibility.:shrugs:

Typically, if a slug is laid first (with nothing more happening that day), the female will lay another one or two slugs within a couple of days (+/-) of the first one, then go on to lay their entire clutch on another day... This is all, usually, within a week's time frame (+/-). Either that or they lay one slug and, two or three days later, lay their entire clutch without anymore slugs in between ... multiple scenarios as to how many slugs (~if~ there are slugs), & when they are laid, prior to laying the rest of (the entire) clutch. So, when I suggested your gal go into the vet, within a week (not one week, or later, after the ~last~ slug is laid), it is in taking certain things/scenarios into account and trying to meld it into the best, "cover all", time frame.
Each individual, of course, can be a case by case basis.

Again, If it were an egg (not a slug) and nothing else followed, ... totally different scenario. I sure wouldn't go long... would be doing/checking something waaaay before what I would do with slug/s laid prior to the entire clutch (as in my last post).

Perhaps, for you, take your gal, in to the vet, within a couple/few days if she doesn't lay anything else from now until then... it would be soon enough, if there should happen to be a problem, and, at the least end (if nothing is wrong), it can give you "peace of mind" that all is as it should be.

Speaking of egg binding ... I just had an egg bound girl. It's a long, complicated, weird, scenario but here is the "short version" ...
She started laying some eggs before becoming egg bound (at vent area). I attempted giving her a swim to see if that would help. It did not, so, eventually, a couple/few eggs started to line up after the one that was stuck. Thus, I, finally, ended up having to lube/probe her to get the stuck egg out. She laid two more eggs, on her own, before becoming egg bound again. Once again, I had to lube/probe her to get the stuck egg out. By this time, two more eggs were left, inside her, to come out. One close to the vent and another high up (10 saddles up from her vent). She laid the one near her vent, on her own, but the very last egg made absolutely no movement throughout the day (morning to evening). I decided to step in again. That last egg I was able to massage to her vent (or just before the vent) but, by the next day, it had not been laid and it was obvious that my girl was egg bound yet again... jeepers! This one I was not able to get out, yesterday, via lube/probe method ... So, off to the vet she went, today, where the vet was able to extract the egg through her vent. Phew! Glad this is over. Am sure my poor gal is too.

 

[Kali]

ok thanks! Apparantly again something without any strict rules to it, but then again, what is...? We'll see what happens.
Glad your girl is ok pasodama

 

[Pasodama]

Thanks Kali.
Hope everything goes as it should with Donatella. Keep us posted.