was it the mice?

[Kyra Omega]

Hi all,

I am new and will do an intro post after this one, But I have a question which is semi-serious. I have 2 beautiful baby corn snakes that I was given to try to save (almost a year ago now) , The guy said they were non-feeders and would probably die. He said If I didn't want them he would feed them to his kingsnake... I ended up coming home with 2 very tiny very skinny baby corn snakes.

Well, they ate wonderfully for me on a brained pinky. The male regurged after his first feeding, I waited 10 days, fed again then it was smooth sailing. Thy both rounded out a little and put on a few inches, though I am told they are still tiny from what they should be (both still under 2 feet long). Other then possible slow growig I havn't had any problems.... until now.

I recently moved my babies up from double pinks to a fuzzy each. The first 3 feedings went well (even though I was a little worried, the fuzzys look so big!) But this last feeding, the 4th with fuzzys, they both regurged! When on pinks I fed every 5 days, once I switched to Fuzzy I moved it up to every 7 days. From what I know of the babies they are about 1 year to one year and 4 months old. They each live in their own 58 quart tupperware ( i did some research and saw this was an ok house. Please correct me if I am wrong) They each have a hide and a shallow water bowl which I clean and refil every other day. Their bedding is dry Bermuda grass. They also have an UTC heat pad. There hasn't been any changes in their housing or temps other then routine cleaning. I check regularly when I say hi to them. Their sheds are always complete. They also get fed in a seperate tupperware so I don't have to worry about them ingesting their substrate.

So I don't know what might have happend to cause them both to regurge a day after eating. The fuzzies are f/t that I buy at pet smart. Is it possible that the mice were bad? What else could cause 2 healty corns to regurge at the same time? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Meanwhile my poor babies will have to be hungry for another 10 days.

Thanks,

Kyra

 

[cat bojangles]

I'm a novice, but I think the following information would help narrow it down:

- what are their warm side temperatures and how are they measured?

- have you noticed any recent changes in behaviour or environment? (ie, preparing to shed, looking sick, smelling different, recent cold/hot weather affecting the room temp., acting strange)

- how are you preparing the mice? Did they look or smell strange this time? Have they been thawed and refrozen that you know of?

Hopefully with the above information the experts here will be able to help you figure out what's wrong. Good luck and don't forget to read the Regurg FAQ.

 

[Kyra Omega]

Thanks for the reply Cat. I read the regurge faq. But I just can't seem to place where they fit.

- tank 1 -wam side temp is 85 cool side clocks in at 71. Temps are measures by a probe themomenter.

- tank 2 - warm side- 83 cool side - 70
(temps don't fluctuate more then 1 or 2 degrees)

- no abnormal behavior/smell/ or environment changes.

- and as far as i know the mice have not been thawed before. but it is impossible to know when buying from a pe store.

 

[windowswisher]

Seems to me like they should have been eating more than 2 pinks all that time, since you indicated they were 16 months old. My snake is now 8 months old and has been eating medium-ish fuzzies for 2 months now. That's probably contributed to their small size.

Unfortunately, I met someone over Christmas with an 8 year old cornsnake he fed just one fuzzy every month. I felt so bad for that poor snake - he was all skin and bones and tiny tiny tiny. I corrected him, but I frankly don't think he cares at all about that snake anymore.

One regurge is not anything to be particularly concerned about, especially if they took the first 3 fuzzies well. Just watch them closely. If it happens again, then I would begin to feel some concern. Personally I REALLY don't like the mice from Petsmart. Despite being triple what I pay at my exotic petstore, their quality is just generally lower.

 

[Kyra Omega]

so I should have moved them up to fuzzies sooner? They only thing is that the fuzzies are just now appropriate size for them from what I read. 1 1/2 x girth?

And could it be some freak occurence that both snakes that are housed seperatly both regurged at the same time?

Thanks

 

[Kyra Omega]

Personally I REALLY don't like the mice from Petsmart. Despite being triple what I pay at my exotic petstore, their quality is just generally lower.

I also don't like petmart mice, but there are no other pet stores around. So I have bought a few and are just waiting for the babies.... they ate their first litter 1m/3f. Sigh.... the waiting game is never fun....

 

[Nroc]

so I should have moved them up to fuzzies sooner? They only thing is that the fuzzies are just now appropriate size for them from what I read. 1 1/2 x girth?

And could it be some freak occurence that both snakes that are housed seperatly both regurged at the same time?

Thanks

How do you get your fuzzies? Do you buy in bulk, and keep them in the freezer? I want to see if these fuzzies are from the same batch as your last 3fuzzies.

Also when you say probe temps are 85, is that right above the UTH (bottom of bin), or on top of the dried bermuda?

Did the fuzzies seem at all too big for your snakes? Bigger than the last 3 batches?

 

[Kyra Omega]

I don't buy my fuzzis in bulk. It was a new batch. (petsmart yay)

The probe temp was right above the utc heater. Surface temps were a bit lower.

the tanks have been set up this way since i got them/almost a year.

The fuzzies were about the same size as the previous ones.

I think I am gonna just guess that it was probably just bad mice... unless it hapens again.

Thanks all.

 

[bitsy]

I'd go back to pinks for a few feeds, just to get them re-established. It's not unusual for very slow starters to take much longer than usual to move up food sizes and to grow very slowly. As long as they're in proportion (head not too big for the body), then they'll be doing fine. My gut feel is that their digestive systems just hit some kind of problem with larger food items after a while.

The 1.5 times girth rule is absolutely spot on. Just sounds like they're going to be delicate feeders for a while yet.

Great work on getting them eating at all!

 

[Asbit]

I second bitsy's feelings here, it does not surprise me at all that they are still small if they were having that much trouble feeding in the first place. If the size of the mouse is proportional to the the snake(no larger than 1.5 times the widest part of the snake) then you are feeding the right sized meal.

Sound like you have done excellent work so far, keep it up.

 

[Kyra Omega]

Thanks guys, I wll go back to pinks for the next 2 or 3 meals. When I move back up should I split the sides of the fuzzies to help them digest?

 

[Asbit]

Yes, esp. with snakes like yours who have had feeding troubles. At least I would if they were mine.

 

[Marica]

Not sure if this could cause a regurge a day late, but could the mice not have been fully de-thawed? My main thought though is that, like mentioned, they may have been larger than the previous fuzzies you feed. I've noticed both buying from a pet store and ordering in bulk that there can be quite the size difference in a size category. Sounds like you've done well in the past with regurges, good luck with the pinks.

As far as habitat suggestions, though they've obviously done fine so far, is to add another hide. If I understand correctly you only have one in each of their vivs. You may want to add another, one on the cool side and one on the warm.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

Also keep in mind that next feed should be 10days after the regurge. Might not hurt to put a little Nutribac on the pinkys as well on the next feed.

 

[wade]

Marica made a good comment, if the mice had a frozen center that may have been the problem and would explain both snakes at the same time.

Age has nothing to do with the size mouse you should be feeding. You are correct in the 1.5 x Girth for the size. I also think your husbandry sounds good too. I don't think you need to make any changes there.

My first thought was temperature problems. It sounds like you have that ok. I would think that bad mice is a very unlikely cause. Snakes have a digestion system that can handle things that would kill you and I.

I think there are some things to consider. First changing to a larger meal is going to take longer to digest and maybe your snakes are slow digesters. I don't think that is it.

Fuzzies differ from pinkies in one very important way. The addition of hair and more bone mass. This is definitely going to be harder to digest. I would suggest that once you start feeding again, I would go slowly. When you work your way back up to fuzzies again, I would feed every 10 or 12 days for the first few and gradually work back to ever 7 days.

Make sure the have the 85* hot end to go to if they choose and give them plenty of time to digest. Don't disturb the for 2 or 3 days after feeding. I think you'll be fine.