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What was wrong with the litter?

SnakeAround

SnakeAround

Formerly Blutengel
One of my mice threw a litter on 10th of november (most probably first one). She give birth to 9 baby's but 6 of them died right after birth, they were dead when I saw them so within 24 hours. One was almost completely eaten. The other 3 grew but very slow and looked kind of weird, like they were retarded (out of proportion) but they didn't look like they were suffering. They also moved around slower than a second litter I had from another female the next day. I offered 1 to my snakes about a week after weaning and put 2 together with my male breeder because they looked like they could be males. Before I had the opportunity to offer another 1 to a snake, one died. A couple of days later, the 1 'retarded' mouse left, seemed groggy and skinny. When I picked him up, I saw his weewee hanging out?! (not his anal tissue, I'm sure of that) He felt weak in my hand so I ended his life with a knock on the head with something heavy. Date was 21st or 22nd of December so he was like 41-42 days old.

Can anybody tell me what was going on? I suspect inbreed (right word ? Caused by late separation at the hobbyist breeders place) so a genetic flaw caused it. Especially since the breeder male in with 2 of them seems healthy as ever and those mice looked retarded from the beginning. Because 2 of the 3 retarded mice I checked looked male and actually 1 proved he was (weewee showing), I tend to think that the ones that died after birth,were female and the litter had not obied Murphy's law. So the flaw could be sex-linked maybe? The 1 I offered to a snake wasn't mature enough to visually be sexed yet (by me, not much experience in it). Besides that, I was able to sex my other litter better at the age of weaning, with the retards it looked like they didn't develop testicles at all.... only the distance between anus and genitals was larger. They all had quite thick and long hair (like their mom) so maybe that also made it more difficult to see, but it seemed a little weird.

Should I breed this female again with a totally different blood line male or would it be too risky? She is quite big and sturdy and a good mom. I would like to breed her for that. I like to breed mice being larger than the ones from pet shops....
 
Retarded or crippled litter

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Maggierose here.
I had the experience of the retarded and crippled backs in more than 1 litter. It is genetic. I put down as feeders all of 2 different litters as well as the parents as we had 3 families decended from one female when we first started. All of her daughters and 1 son had some but not all cripples in the pups. We put all down and save none of her blood line.

When you buy from the large feedermice companies you won't know what you have until the 1st litter is born. You can get GREAT mice and not be exactly sure what you have. I bought a pg female from a large box of mice and she had extremely large satin young. We kept those young to breed because they were different from anything we had seen before. We weighed one full grown female to 100g a weanling of hers 50g and a normal weanling 25g. They were only a day difference in age. The XL weanling is the same weight as our large normal adult male. XL adult male is the same weight as the XL female 100g. Surprise I'll say and most of these are B&T in shades of brown/Cream, not wild or self. What do I have?
Our Corn Snakes are not big enough to eat someting this big. Any body in Alberta Canada, need feeders this big?
Maggierose.
 
Tnx Maggie! And welcome to the forum!

I bought both the suspected mother and the father from a private person that just didn't expect mice to breed so fast... they were from several bloodlines but maybe the female was already pregnant from a sibling before I put them together
 
All baby mice act "retarded" Some times the females eat the litters if they feel they are sick or in danger. I have seen rats and mice eat entire litters in the past. If you try to mess with the mice or the pinks to early(usually about 2-4 days) they feel the babies are in danger and kill them some times. Ive never got successful breeding to happen yet but I hope to get it this group I just got. I hope to discoved some of the problems that people always talk about so I have first hand experience to help
 
It COULD be inbreeding, but last time I read about it, it takes like 8-9 generations of inbreeding to really see any negative effects. It could have just been a bad litter, it could have been environmental, it could have been anything.

Like Porky said, most baby mice act "retarded" and a little slow on the up-take.

Most good mothers will eat the weak or stillborn young shortly after birth. But a few will leave them in the nest to rot if a cagemate doesn't remove them from the nest beforehand.

How did their bodies look aside from the mental aspects? Full, distended bellies, humped backs, coarse oily hair?

By 40 days they should be smaller versions of the parents running around and able to do things for themselves. Maybe nursing slightly, if the females let them. If a second litter comes out similar, I'd cull her from the program.
 
If you have one of those live-catch mouse traps, try and get a male house mouse and breed it with your doe. That'll get some hybrid vigor back into your mice colony. But watch the initial meeting...if they fight, separate them.
 
The retarded mouse had longer hair, like their mommy but even more. It is difficult to explain, but the coat looked less 'even' , like the hairs grouped a little instead of being separared from each other, liek when your own hair has to be washed (but not oily). Further their head looked just bigger, especially with one that survived at first. They were surely much slower then my othe rlitter, which was running around after a couple of weeks. These retards just stayed in their hides mostly and when forced out they hardly ran away from my hand like all other hoppers and weaners do. They also were more timid when taken out by their tail, they just hung mostly instead of trying to get up to your hand.
 
Marky, that could be the worst advice you could give. =P

Wild mice are covered in parasites (internal and external) and from a fellow member who had wild mice mating with her domestics in her colonies, the wild mice traits of being able to jump out of tubs and fit through wire were also there as well.

We raise domestic mice for a reason; they're naive and innocent all the way to the end.

So all in all, I wouldn't recommend it. If the female was bought pregnant, give her a couple more litters with the new male and see how they do. If they're just as bad, cull the mother or father and start with new mice.
 
Hi Misty, I didn't plan on breeding some wild caught in any way, I thought of the same, but tnx for the reply!
 
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