Jr Nimeskern
Snake lover for lifer
what would you get if you mated a female normal het blizzard het bloodred to a male charcoal het pewter? this is just for future refrence... thank you
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what would you get...
- Thread starter Jr Nimeskern
- Start date
Serpwidgets
New member
Are you asking genotypes or phenotypes?
For future reference, it is easier to determine these if you break them down into single traits like so:
The female is het charcoal, amel, and bloodred.
The male is charcoal het bloodred.
The rest is cake. There are only 6 possible combinations. 3 of them are always the same outcome:
Half of the clutch would express charcoal. (standard het to mutant)
1/4th of the clutch would express bloodred. (standard het to het)
IOW, half of the bloodreds--1/8th of the clutch--would be pewters.
All of them would be 50% poss het amel. (standard het to normal)
The non-bloodred-expressing offspring would be 66% poss het bloodred. (standard het to het)
All non-charcoals would be het charcoal. (standard het to mutant)
I would expect less than 25% to express "bloodred" because I think it is supposed to be polygenic, but I've heard different stories on this. I'm still not sure what the deal is.
For future reference, it is easier to determine these if you break them down into single traits like so:
The female is het charcoal, amel, and bloodred.
The male is charcoal het bloodred.
The rest is cake. There are only 6 possible combinations. 3 of them are always the same outcome:
- normal to normal = all normal
- mutant to normal = all are known hets
- mutant to mutant = all are mutants
The other 3 are predictable outcomes that are quite simple to learn: - het to normal = 50% possible het
- het to het = 25% mutant, the rest 66% poss het
- mutant to het = 50% mutants, 50% are known hets
Half of the clutch would express charcoal. (standard het to mutant)
1/4th of the clutch would express bloodred. (standard het to het)
IOW, half of the bloodreds--1/8th of the clutch--would be pewters.
All of them would be 50% poss het amel. (standard het to normal)
The non-bloodred-expressing offspring would be 66% poss het bloodred. (standard het to het)
All non-charcoals would be het charcoal. (standard het to mutant)
I would expect less than 25% to express "bloodred" because I think it is supposed to be polygenic, but I've heard different stories on this. I'm still not sure what the deal is.
what *is* the deal with the bloods?
So exactly what is going on with the bloodreds? My impression was that when corny says "het", he means an outcrossed blood, which is what you get if you breed a pure blood to anything else. So his female theoretical snake, right now, should look kinda like a blood. And the male, if he's a charcoal with bloodred outcross, wouldn't that make him a pewter?
If so, then that cross *ought* to come up with
12.5% outcross blood, charcoal, het for amel
12.5% outcross blood, charcoal
12.5% outcross blood, het amel, het charcoal
12.5% outcross blood, het charcoal
6.25% *pure* bloodred (if possible?) charcoal (super pewter?) het amel
6.25% pure bloodred, charcoal
6.25% pure blood, het amel, het charcoal
6.25% pure blood, het charcoal
6.25% pure blood, het amel
6.25% charcoal, het amel
6.25% charcoal
6.25% het amel, het charcoal
6.25% het amel
which ought to result in phenotypes something like:
25% pewter
25% outcross blood/normal
12.5% pure bloodred, charcoal (Pewter, but... more?)
18.75% pure bloodred
12.5% charcoal
12.5% normal
But all that's assuming that pewters are charcoal + outcrossed blood, *and* that two outcrossed bloods are capable of producing pure bloods again. Maybe they'd just produce outcrosses that are a little bit more like pures? How in the world is this thing inherited, anyway?
Most confused,
TS
So exactly what is going on with the bloodreds? My impression was that when corny says "het", he means an outcrossed blood, which is what you get if you breed a pure blood to anything else. So his female theoretical snake, right now, should look kinda like a blood. And the male, if he's a charcoal with bloodred outcross, wouldn't that make him a pewter?
If so, then that cross *ought* to come up with
12.5% outcross blood, charcoal, het for amel
12.5% outcross blood, charcoal
12.5% outcross blood, het amel, het charcoal
12.5% outcross blood, het charcoal
6.25% *pure* bloodred (if possible?) charcoal (super pewter?) het amel
6.25% pure bloodred, charcoal
6.25% pure blood, het amel, het charcoal
6.25% pure blood, het charcoal
6.25% pure blood, het amel
6.25% charcoal, het amel
6.25% charcoal
6.25% het amel, het charcoal
6.25% het amel
which ought to result in phenotypes something like:
25% pewter
25% outcross blood/normal
12.5% pure bloodred, charcoal (Pewter, but... more?)
18.75% pure bloodred
12.5% charcoal
12.5% normal
But all that's assuming that pewters are charcoal + outcrossed blood, *and* that two outcrossed bloods are capable of producing pure bloods again. Maybe they'd just produce outcrosses that are a little bit more like pures? How in the world is this thing inherited, anyway?
Most confused,
TS
Jr Nimeskern
Snake lover for lifer
DANG im confused now also... lol but its all good... i guess ill just have to learn as I go... thanks for the help Serp. and Tschofie I cant breed them for at least 1 more year... but then I think that itll very intresting...
Serpwidgets
New member
According to this, 13/16ths of the clutch is bloodred. I'm not sure how you arrived at this. (?)
For every additional non-linked recessive trait, the odds of recovering them all in one F2 animal is divided by 4. So 16, 64, 256, etc.
Also, referring to "outcrossed bloodred," I took a survey on another forum a while back and learned that the term means something different to everyone.
To some it means the F1 offspring of Bloodred X Normal.
Others use "outcross" to describe an F2 that has the plain belly and maybe some other effects, but is not the solid patternless "pure" bloodred.
The plain-belly trait is simple-recessive. If you consider anything expressing the plain-belly trait to be a bloodred--which AFAIK is the standard at this point--then my original post on the outcome is accurate.
Serpwidgets
New member
I use the term mutant to mean one that is expressing a mutation. Anything that is not wild-type is a mutant. Amels, charcoals, etc.Matt L said:
hmmm.
It should have come out to more like 12/16ths (3/4) showing bloodred. (I think I must have enterd something twice, since those numbers add up to more than 100%. Whoops! Sorry.)
So does it matter what you are starting with in the first place? For instance, are corny's "het" bloodreds are F1s, or by "het" does he mean a normal outcross F2, like you said. These are the punnet squares I was working with, with lower case being mutant:
Female:
AaCcBb
Male:
AAccBb
So none of the clutch should be amel, but 1/2 should be carriers
1/2 the clutch shoudl be charcoal, the rest should be carriers
1/2 the clutch should be the same kind of blood outcross their parents are, whatever that is, 1/4 should be non-carriers and 1/4 should be more blood-like than their parents were.
This *could* mean that half the outcross bloods (which were 1/2 of the clutch) would also express charcoal, which should make them pewters just like their father. (Is he "het-enough" blood to be a pewter?) But then, about that 1/8th you mentioned, which you get from halving the "more pure" bloods... what kinds of pewters to those make? They would have to express more blood than their father or mother. But would you even be able to tell them apart from their more common pewter siblings?
When you buy a "pewter" at a store, what exactly are you getting? A straight F1 outcross, or a more pure one?
But then, once you throw in independant assortment... I just don't know. Corny, can you describe what your male and female look like right now? How much belly patterning do they have? Does the male look like a pewter, only with belly patterning?
So confused.
Cheers,
TS
It should have come out to more like 12/16ths (3/4) showing bloodred. (I think I must have enterd something twice, since those numbers add up to more than 100%. Whoops! Sorry.)
So does it matter what you are starting with in the first place? For instance, are corny's "het" bloodreds are F1s, or by "het" does he mean a normal outcross F2, like you said. These are the punnet squares I was working with, with lower case being mutant:
Female:
AaCcBb
Male:
AAccBb
So none of the clutch should be amel, but 1/2 should be carriers
1/2 the clutch shoudl be charcoal, the rest should be carriers
1/2 the clutch should be the same kind of blood outcross their parents are, whatever that is, 1/4 should be non-carriers and 1/4 should be more blood-like than their parents were.
This *could* mean that half the outcross bloods (which were 1/2 of the clutch) would also express charcoal, which should make them pewters just like their father. (Is he "het-enough" blood to be a pewter?) But then, about that 1/8th you mentioned, which you get from halving the "more pure" bloods... what kinds of pewters to those make? They would have to express more blood than their father or mother. But would you even be able to tell them apart from their more common pewter siblings?
When you buy a "pewter" at a store, what exactly are you getting? A straight F1 outcross, or a more pure one?
But then, once you throw in independant assortment... I just don't know. Corny, can you describe what your male and female look like right now? How much belly patterning do they have? Does the male look like a pewter, only with belly patterning?
So confused.
Cheers,
TS
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Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
I don't mean to further cloud the issue of what is a "het for bloodred" animal, but . . .
I know of a clutch of eggs produced by a bloodred male bred to an anery female, which produced exactly what you would expect with some bloodred looking babies exhibiting limited checkering on the ventral scales. However, about half of the clutch was also anery with either limited or no ventral checks!
Unless I am missing something here, this means that the bloodred male is het for anerythrism. If the bloodreds are more het than we understand them to be even when they are completely phenotypically bloodred, maybe that is why it is so hard to nail down what they throw when crossed to other morphs! Thoughts?
Darin
I know of a clutch of eggs produced by a bloodred male bred to an anery female, which produced exactly what you would expect with some bloodred looking babies exhibiting limited checkering on the ventral scales. However, about half of the clutch was also anery with either limited or no ventral checks!
Unless I am missing something here, this means that the bloodred male is het for anerythrism. If the bloodreds are more het than we understand them to be even when they are completely phenotypically bloodred, maybe that is why it is so hard to nail down what they throw when crossed to other morphs! Thoughts?
Darin
Jr Nimeskern
Snake lover for lifer
Well to tell you the truth I dont have the corns yet... Im going to pick them up at the St. Louis show in Aug. I was just wondernig about the outcome of the babys when I breed them... if it matters they are brother and sister... Im wouldnt be able to give you a description Im sorry...
yikes
Wow. So you had a pure blood (he must have been het for anery?), with no belly checks, yes? And you bred to an anery female. And what you got was about 1/2 blood outcrosses (het for anery) and 1/2 anery, which had no or limited belly checking.
Serp says (I think this is what you meant?) belly checks sort independently of good solid color, and that sounds cool to me. So I can see where the belly check absence would come from, if your anery just-so-happened to be het for no belly checks.
But then why didn't some of the blood outcrosses also show up without checks? And why does Anery seem capable of masking the effects of a blood outcrossing? What exactly is it that the blood gene does? Something to do with spreading the red out? Is that why the Anery masks it, because there is no red to brighten?
Did *all* the anery hatchlings have no belly checks? Does anyone know, if you do just this same thing but with a butter instead of an anery, if the same kind of thing happens? 'Cause you *might* have pinpointed the chromosome that carries belly checking (i.e. the same one that carries anery) if there weren't any fully-patterned anery hatchlings.
And do you think belly checks is simple recessive? What about partial checks? Do you think it could be the same gene, just that it's codominant? What were the checks on the female like?
Save some of those asprin for me, Matt.
TS
Wow. So you had a pure blood (he must have been het for anery?), with no belly checks, yes? And you bred to an anery female. And what you got was about 1/2 blood outcrosses (het for anery) and 1/2 anery, which had no or limited belly checking.
Serp says (I think this is what you meant?) belly checks sort independently of good solid color, and that sounds cool to me. So I can see where the belly check absence would come from, if your anery just-so-happened to be het for no belly checks.
But then why didn't some of the blood outcrosses also show up without checks? And why does Anery seem capable of masking the effects of a blood outcrossing? What exactly is it that the blood gene does? Something to do with spreading the red out? Is that why the Anery masks it, because there is no red to brighten?
Did *all* the anery hatchlings have no belly checks? Does anyone know, if you do just this same thing but with a butter instead of an anery, if the same kind of thing happens? 'Cause you *might* have pinpointed the chromosome that carries belly checking (i.e. the same one that carries anery) if there weren't any fully-patterned anery hatchlings.
And do you think belly checks is simple recessive? What about partial checks? Do you think it could be the same gene, just that it's codominant? What were the checks on the female like?
Save some of those asprin for me, Matt.
TS
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Jr Nimeskern
Snake lover for lifer
Hey Tschofie when you did the punnet square... did you get a 8X2 ??? making that there will be 16 genotypes all together??? when I did my punnet square I got
...2 Pewters 1 will be het for Amel
...6 Charcoals 2 will be het for Blood and Amel
2 will be het for just Blood
1 will be het for Amel
and 1 will just be Charcoal
...2 Bloods 1 will be het for Blizzard(Char.)(Amel)
1 will be het for Charcoal
...6 Normals 2 will be het for Charcoal, Bloodred, and Amel
2 will be het for Pewter (Char.)(Blood)
1 will be het for Charcoal and Amel
1 will be het for just Charcoal
sorry for all that mess their... this is the first time I used the punnet square for corns... Ive only done it for my Bio class... if you could just check it out and see if its correct thanks for all the help... especially Serp and Tschofie
...2 Pewters 1 will be het for Amel
...6 Charcoals 2 will be het for Blood and Amel
2 will be het for just Blood
1 will be het for Amel
and 1 will just be Charcoal
...2 Bloods 1 will be het for Blizzard(Char.)(Amel)
1 will be het for Charcoal
...6 Normals 2 will be het for Charcoal, Bloodred, and Amel
2 will be het for Pewter (Char.)(Blood)
1 will be het for Charcoal and Amel
1 will be het for just Charcoal
sorry for all that mess their... this is the first time I used the punnet square for corns... Ive only done it for my Bio class... if you could just check it out and see if its correct thanks for all the help... especially Serp and Tschofie
Serpwidgets
New member
I didn't originally do a Punnett square, but here's one...
Punnett Square for AaBbCc X AABbcc
The squares are color-coded by phenotype, white=normal, gray=charcoal, red=blood, yellow=pewter. You'll see.
Corny... said:
Punnett Square for AaBbCc X AABbcc
The squares are color-coded by phenotype, white=normal, gray=charcoal, red=blood, yellow=pewter. You'll see.
Serpwidgets
New member
From what I've heard, some loss of checkering appears in hets. From what you've described, it sounds like the blood is het Anery and the Anery is het blood, or at least the same or a compatible plain-belly trait. My bloodred is the product of Anery (het blood) X Pewter.Darin Chappell said:
As mentioned, there's more to the morph "bloodred" than the one gene.
If you haven't seen them, corns that are expressing both Anery and Bloodred look very different than pewters. Anery seems to at least partially block the expression of bloodred.
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/If you haven't seen them, corns that are expressing
/both Anery and Bloodred look very different than
/pewters. Anery seems to at least partially block the
/expression of bloodred.
Ahh, I see. And that explanins the belly checks (multiplying entities needlessly again, bad, bad Tenley!) But... being het bloodred normally produces some visable color change, doesn't it? Why wouldn't the anery het bloods of Darin's look at least a little different from normal?
TS
/both Anery and Bloodred look very different than
/pewters. Anery seems to at least partially block the
/expression of bloodred.
Ahh, I see. And that explanins the belly checks (multiplying entities needlessly again, bad, bad Tenley!) But... being het bloodred normally produces some visable color change, doesn't it? Why wouldn't the anery het bloods of Darin's look at least a little different from normal?
TS
Jr Nimeskern
Snake lover for lifer
Thanks Serp for the punnett thats a really nice punnett square at that... is that a program or something??? how did you make it?
on another note... I thought if a normal has het for bloodred then the color of the normal after time would soon turn a little redder... at least that is what ive heard... wouldnt it still work for a anery het bloodred??? will the anery start to change colors as it grows older?
on another note... I thought if a normal has het for bloodred then the color of the normal after time would soon turn a little redder... at least that is what ive heard... wouldnt it still work for a anery het bloodred??? will the anery start to change colors as it grows older?
Jr Nimeskern
Snake lover for lifer
OOOooo and one more question??? if something has a Phenotype of Amel can they be het Blizzard? since Amel is a key ingredient for Blizzard would it just be Amel het Charcoal??? or Amel Het Blizzard???
kenalotia
New member
I've heard people use both terms to describe that sort of a snake. As you said, amelanism is one of the two ingredients in blizzards, and charcoal is the other one. So whether you hear someone say amel, het for blizzard or amel, het for charcoal, they're talking about the same thing.
I think you're welcome to call an amel het charcoal either "amel het blizzard" or "amel het charcoal," no prob either way. It's when you start using *only* "het for blizzard" that there might be confusion... does the person mean that the snake is het amel het charcoal? Or full charcoal, het amel, or what? So I think you're ok.
P.S. does anyone know exactly what a pewter is in terms of blood outcrossings?
Cheers,
TS
P.S. does anyone know exactly what a pewter is in terms of blood outcrossings?
Cheers,
TS
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