White House Blaming the Shutdown on....

[Tara80]

The real issue isn't even the Obamacare. It's money.
We've hit our debt ceiling. The reason why they are stalemated it is because they are trying to find funding to pay us (me included); they are 'rebudgeting'. It isn't as simple as "Republicans don't like Obamacare, so they are trying to get rid of it"; it has to do with the fact that the Senate wants to raise the debt ceiling and open up to more spending (along with wanting to try to pay our bills on time, even though we don't have enough to even do that at this point). Obamacare is a huge financial sink.
We are heading to a looming and huge economic collapse. It's going to happen. I THINK they WANT it to happen, and it is the ultimate goal. What better way is there to control the masses but through holding the financial reins that affect every single household of everyone in the world. All the decisions that have been made over the last few years have been spiraling headlong into financial collapse (a ridiculous amount of economists were warning people that this was going to happen), no causes to the actual problems that started all of this had ever been fixed and they continue to head in that direction.

I feel that the world around me has gone mad.

 

[SarahP]

True to a degree BUT, as I stated above the republican side actually HAS TRIED to negotiate to make both sides happy. The Senate side just plain refuses to budge, or even attempt a "happy medium" negotiation.
So, looking at this from a logical standpoint, who would be more "to blame" then the other side? The one actually trying to work on it, or the one saying "My way or nothing"? C'mon

Can you show me any compromise that the GOP has offered that does not involve defunding or delaying the ACA?

Because if not, then the GOP is essentially holding the country hostage over a law that has already been passed, as other people have pointed out. Or rather, a small minority would like the country held hostage over this, and the remainder of the party has, so far anyway, bowed to what they want.

Which is not compromise. That's, as you put it, one side saying "my way or nothing".

 

[Nova_C]

Look we both know where we stand on big gov issues. You are obviously pro big gov, control of healthcare and other liberties. I am not. We will have to agree to disagree. You think the reps are sociopaths I think some on both sides are. :shrugs:

I just saw this. When did I say that Republicans are sociopaths? I said there were a few in the party but most were trying to resolve this.

This is what drives me absolutely nuts about debating anything with you. You seem to be incapable of debating in good faith.

 

[Nova_C]

The real issue isn't even the Obamacare. It's money.
We've hit our debt ceiling. The reason why they are stalemated it is because they are trying to find funding to pay us (me included); they are 'rebudgeting'. It isn't as simple as "Republicans don't like Obamacare, so they are trying to get rid of it"; it has to do with the fact that the Senate wants to raise the debt ceiling and open up to more spending (along with wanting to try to pay our bills on time, even though we don't have enough to even do that at this point). Obamacare is a huge financial sink.
We are heading to a looming and huge economic collapse. It's going to happen. I THINK they WANT it to happen, and it is the ultimate goal. What better way is there to control the masses but through holding the financial reins that affect every single household of everyone in the world. All the decisions that have been made over the last few years have been spiraling headlong into financial collapse (a ridiculous amount of economists were warning people that this was going to happen), no causes to the actual problems that started all of this had ever been fixed and they continue to head in that direction.

I feel that the world around me has gone mad.

The debt ceiling vote used to be a procedural one. Even discounting the ACA, it has to be raised or the US doesn't pay its bills. Considering it's the body of government (Congress) that decides what to spend the money on, and that same group (Congress) is now saying that they aren't going to pay for it, it's ridiculous that this is even a thing.

 

[Outcast]

When I hear of the debt ceiling being raised I think of someone calling their creditors asking to raise the limit on all of their credit cards, so that they can pay their bills with money that they will never be able to pay back in their lifetimes... Raising the debt ceiling, in my opinion, is treasonous because it not only affects myself and those living right now, but it affects my children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren. It shows a distinct failure of our government to do their job in assuring that they do not over spend on pet projects. And proves to me that every one of them needs to be taken out of office and replaced by people who know how to handle finances responsibly, and that will take the leadership of this country as it should be taken, seriously and as a privilege.

Of course I also think it should be easier for the people to remove the leadership from office when they deem in necessary.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, in a nutshell, here's the game that all of the politicians are playing....

 

[Tara80]

Just for kicks........
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/28thamendment.asp

 

[Nova_C]

When I hear of the debt ceiling being raised I think of someone calling their creditors asking to raise the limit on all of their credit cards, so that they can pay their bills with money that they will never be able to pay back in their lifetimes... Raising the debt ceiling, in my opinion, is treasonous because it not only affects myself and those living right now, but it affects my children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren. It shows a distinct failure of our government to do their job in assuring that they do not over spend on pet projects. And proves to me that every one of them needs to be taken out of office and replaced by people who know how to handle finances responsibly, and that will take the leadership of this country as it should be taken, seriously and as a privilege.

Of course I also think it should be easier for the people to remove the leadership from office when they deem in necessary.

Lots of treason throughout the ages, then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_United_States_debt-ceiling_increases

Like I said, it used to be procedural.

 

[Rich Z]

The problem is that if treason takes place in the oval office or in congress, WHO initiates and enforces the necessary legal proceedings?

 

[tsst]

The real issue isn't even the Obamacare. It's money.
We've hit our debt ceiling. The reason why they are stalemated it is because they are trying to find funding to pay us (me included); they are 'rebudgeting'. It isn't as simple as "Republicans don't like Obamacare, so they are trying to get rid of it"; it has to do with the fact that the Senate wants to raise the debt ceiling and open up to more spending (along with wanting to try to pay our bills on time, even though we don't have enough to even do that at this point). Obamacare is a huge financial sink.
We are heading to a looming and huge economic collapse. It's going to happen. I THINK they WANT it to happen, and it is the ultimate goal. What better way is there to control the masses but through holding the financial reins that affect every single household of everyone in the world. All the decisions that have been made over the last few years have been spiraling headlong into financial collapse (a ridiculous amount of economists were warning people that this was going to happen), no causes to the actual problems that started all of this had ever been fixed and they continue to head in that direction.

I feel that the world around me has gone mad.

Exactly! obamacare to me is simply a massively huge unsustainable entitlement program that will add trillions to the debt we already can't pay. I wish the world worked the way some think it can, free healthcare, free food, free cell phones, free housing, free petty cash, etc and we plant a magical money tree on the White House lawn. Nothing is free!

I used to compare our eventual collapse to Greece but I was wrong. Greece could be absorbed. There is not a group of nations large enough to absorb our financial collapse. Even nova won't like it then because it will be global and given that Canada has a 400% trade surplus with the US it will devastate their economy too.

I am dumbfounded that so many seemingly intelligent people can't do simple math. We can't pay for this period. So frustrating! I feel guilty for having brought two kids into this world because they and their kids and grandkids and great grandkids will be paying for today's credit card debt.

Can you show me any compromise that the GOP has offered that does not involve defunding or delaying the ACA?

Because if not, then the GOP is essentially holding the country hostage over a law that has already been passed, as other people have pointed out. Or rather, a small minority would like the country held hostage over this, and the remainder of the party has, so far anyway, bowed to what they want.

Which is not compromise. That's, as you put it, one side saying "my way or nothing".

You mean like the delays Obama has unilaterally given, you mean like the funding changes made in waivers given by this admin, you mean like the exemptions DC has given themselves? And those were made unilaterally with no negotiation and were not the way the ACA was written.

One side simply did what they wanted with the law without negociation but the other side asks to negociate and their holding the country hostage? Obama gave a one year delay for penalties for big business but congress asks for the same delay for the people and it's hostage holding?!?!

And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the SCOTUS unconstitutionally approved obamacare in the first place. It was not their job to alter the ACA from fine to tax to make it legal. They should have sent it back to congress to change. The problem there was dems were about to lose their super-majority and would not have been able to ram through obamacare. "we have to pass so we can find out what's in it".

I just saw this. When did I say that Republicans are sociopaths? I said there were a few in the party but most were trying to resolve this.

This is what drives me absolutely nuts about debating anything with you. You seem to be incapable of debating in good faith.

Come on nova your furtive comments were bait that I took. I responded overtly and with a little hyperbole but I think you knew you were baiting with the sociopath comments. Hi pot my name is kettle. You want to simply talk about the issue don't start by slinging poo.

The problem is that if treason takes place in the oval office or in congress, WHO initiates and enforces the necessary legal proceedings?

Herein lies the issue with the fedgov. The proverbial wolves are guarding the hen house. I don't expect in my lifetime to see them relinquish power, to the contrary they keep grabbing. Oh how twisted our fedgov has become.

The debt ceiling vote used to be a procedural one. Even discounting the ACA, it has to be raised or the US doesn't pay its bills. Considering it's the body of government (Congress) that decides what to spend the money on, and that same group (Congress) is now saying that they aren't going to pay for it, it's ridiculous that this is even a thing.

ding ding ding ... It should NOT be procedural!!! That is a huge part of the problem. It has become so matter of factly that we increase debt. We can't pay it.

If you need $900 to pay your monthly bills and you only make $600 and borrow the other $300(every month) you DON'T go out this month and increase your monthly bills to $1200 and get two more credit cards to charge it on. Who thinks like that, well besides our fedgov?! It shouldn't be raised we should be cutting back on spending! I don't understand how even a big gov liberal can't see how this won't work. :headbang: If it is raised it should tied directly to manditory major cuts with a deadline goal to lower the debt ceiling progressively for the foreseeable future.

 

[tsst]

 

[SarahP]

You mean like the delays Obama has unilaterally given, you mean like the funding changes made in waivers given by this admin, you mean like the exemptions DC has given themselves? And those were made unilaterally with no negotiation and were not the way the ACA was written.

One side simply did what they wanted with the law without negociation but the other side asks to negociate and their holding the country hostage? Obama gave a one year delay for penalties for big business but congress asks for the same delay for the people and it's hostage holding?!?!

And that doesn't even touch on the fact that the SCOTUS unconstitutionally approved obamacare in the first place. It was not their job to alter the ACA from fine to tax to make it legal. They should have sent it back to congress to change. The problem there was dems were about to lose their super-majority and would not have been able to ram through obamacare. "we have to pass so we can find out what's in it".

Nope. I mean what I asked for. Show me a compromise that does not involve delaying or defunding the ACA.

Lack of faith in or dislike/hatred for the SCOTUS does not change the fact that they -did- review the ACA and they -did- find it constitutional, which makes the claim that it was "unconstitutionally approved" pretty ridiculous.

Have you read the entire ACA? Do you know what exactly is in it? I think Pelosi chose her words very poorly when she made that statement, but she was probably telling the truth.

The bottom line is this: If it really is a crappy law, and it really was passed unconstitutionally, there are -constitutional- ways to get it repealed. The GOP should be attempting to do -that-, not shutting down the government until someone else essentially does it for them.

 

[Outcast]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...-tells-her-the-media-are-part-of-the-problem/

 

[tsst]

Nope. I mean what I asked for. Show me a compromise that does not involve delaying or defunding the ACA.

I can't do that nor should I need to. The budget process is debatable there is no guaranteed funding for any program.

They ask to delay the individual mandate penalty just like the one granted by Obama to big business. And his and Harry's response was we will not compromise. Which in turn created the impass that led to no CR. :shrugs:

Lack of faith in or dislike/hatred for the SCOTUS does not change the fact that they -did- review the ACA and they -did- find it constitutional, which makes the claim that it was "unconstitutionally approved" pretty ridiculous.

I have lack of faith in general but it has nothing to do with like or dislike. They did review the ACA but did not find it constitutional without changing the individual mandate fine to a tax. That is legislating from the bench which is NOT authorized by the constitution in article III powers. What they should have done was send it back to congress(the legislative branch) to be revised. And Obama left no doubt what it was ...

Have you read the entire ACA? Do you know what exactly is in it? I think Pelosi chose her words very poorly when she made that statement, but she was probably telling the truth.

I have read much of it unfortunately, but not all. Probably far more than Pelosi. Aside from that I find it absolutely abhorrent that congress would pass a bill into law without knowing what's in it. So she basically told the country I didn't do the job you elected me to do, and people are ok with that?!?!

The bottom line is this: If it really is a crappy law, and it really was passed unconstitutionally, there are -constitutional- ways to get it repealed.

I concur.

The GOP should be attempting to do -that-, not shutting down the government until someone else essentially does it for them.

The house is empowered in article I to pass a budget. Whether it fully funds every program the fedgov has is debatable every budget. Whether they spend more or less on food stamps, whether they spend more or less on defense, etc. It is their constitutional job to budget.

For example it is directly in the constitution for the fedgov to provide defense for the nation. That in no way equates to automatic funding for everything a POTUS wants. The level of funding is debatable. And that is constitutional law not just an entitlement program.

Refusal by the dems to debate the budget is what is shutting down the gov not the house asking for debate.

 

[Tara80]

The house is empowered in article I to pass a budget. Whether it fully funds every program the fedgov has is debatable every budget. Whether they spend more or less on food stamps, whether they spend more or less on defense, etc. It is their constitutional job to budget.

For example it is directly in the constitution for the fedgov to provide defense for the nation. That in no way equates to automatic funding for everything a POTUS wants. The level of funding is debatable. And that is constitutional law not just an entitlement program.

Refusal by the dems to debate the budget is what is shutting down the gov not the house asking for debate.

Yes. Bingo. Thank you.
This is exactly what almost every average American is not aware of and does not understand what this means; or even what they're actually "doing".
They are not "shutting down the government because they don't like Obamacare". But that's what everyone seems to think is happening.
People don't realize that the FISCAL Year has to be budgeted and it's done at this time, every year and
.... every bill you spend money on and every purchase made, or obiligation to make passes through your hands for approval.. right?

 

[SarahP]

The budget process is debatable there is no guaranteed funding for any program.

This is true.

It's also a -fantastic- deflection of the issue.

 

[Tara80]

This is true.

It's also a -fantastic- deflection of the issue.

I don't get this. He did, in fact answer the question fairly clearly.
Why would you even add "without delaying"?
Delaying something IS compromising so that the rest of the budget can go through and then they can sit down and hash it out, without everyone else being held down meanwhile?

That doesn't even make sense. Delaying it IS an attempt at compromise (since many of the people in office have different opinions about what should or should not be included).

I was just thinking about this... what a way to attempt to back someone in the corner with a nonsensical question. Can God create a rock that he cannot lift? :laugh:

 

[tsst]

This is true.

It's also a -fantastic- deflection of the issue.

I guess I don't understand what you believe to be the issue then.

 

[SarahP]

The issue is that no matter how much it would be nice to say this is a fight over simple budgetary issues like fights that have happened in the past, that's not the truth. The Tea Party faction of the Republican party have made it very clear that they want the ACA rolled back, removed, repealed, delayed, pick a word. And they've made it clear that without that, they're not going to approve a budget.

Yes, budgetary issues get debated all the time and yes, that's expected, but to try to pass this off as "eh, it's just a budgetary disagreement and we're trying to be reasonable" is disingenuous.

 

[Tara80]

The issue is that no matter how much it would be nice to say this is a fight over simple budgetary issues like fights that have happened in the past, that's not the truth. The Tea Party faction of the Republican party have made it very clear that they want the ACA rolled back, removed, repealed, delayed, pick a word. And they've made it clear that without that, they're not going to approve a budget.

This is so much much much not true that it makes me cringe to read this.
ALL of this is about the debt ceiling. If you say otherwise then you really have no idea. Absolutely no idea. Our Country is hurting so much right now and the average American has no idea. Budgetary issues are not simple. Debt and spending is everything; It's the decline of our Country and it's going to be the fall of our Country.
Right now, they are happy to DELAY (yes that word) any talk of the ACA because that's not the real issue.
Go do some more reading and do not pick biased news sources from either side (I know that is hard).

The ignorance in the above statement really upsets me. Not very often on here; or any forum really, do I let something really bother me but what you said does because it shows to me how DEEP the ignorance is, how shielded and unsure we really can be out there. I work for the government, have for 15 years and I see the spending and budgets... what rolls across my desk.. and how terribly off we are right now. I know the truth and what's really going on. The budget is everything. Not simple... or simply... the word disingenuous has nothing to do with it. Our Country is literally starving financially. Literally. We don't have the money to pay our bills OR OUR PEOPLE. the ACA is a very very very small portion of it and a way to NOT spend more money right now that we do not have. (Thus why they would be happy to delay discussion about this)
If you think that is the concern about the Tea Party, then you are dead wrong. Go look up Tea Party and see what they stand for and why. Go do research. Read. Study.