Why are hybrids evil?

[batwrangler]

I'd really like this to be a civil, well-reasoned thread, and I know we can make it so, but to help things along, I want to limit this to just talking about hybrids within the Elaphe/Pantherophis species. That is New World corn/rat snake crosses.

Should we be trying to maintain some kind of "purity" (however you define purity) rather than overtly developing Elaphe/Pantherophis domesticus?

As I see it:

The benefits of hybrids/integrades: more robust hatchlings, easier feeders, additional color genes, wider gene pool, less confusion when a locality subspecies gets reclassified as its own species, natural/wild integrades doubtless occur.

The drawbacks: less predictable mating results, often difficult to distinguish between "pure" individuals and hybrids/integrades.

 

[Roy Munson]

...often difficult to distinguish between "pure" individuals and hybrids/integrades.

This drawback is my main problem with hybrids. If every snake breeder was honest, conscientious, kept great records, and labeled things properly, then it wouldn't be an issue. But it's not a perfect world. I'm not anti-hybrid, and I like a lot of hybrids (though I'm not interested in owning or breeding them). Since I'm not interested in breeding hybrids, I'd like to be reasonably certain that my stock is as "pure" as possible.

 

[Jcapicy]

I agree that many hybrids look fantastic! And see no problem with them if labeled properly, which many are not. Even worse is many are sold as morphs of a pure species line.

 

[batwrangler]

This drawback is my main problem with hybrids. If every snake breeder was honest, conscientious, kept great records, and labeled things properly, then it wouldn't be an issue. But it's not a perfect world. I'm not anti-hybrid, and I like a lot of hybrids (though I'm not interested in owning or breeding them). Since I'm not interested in breeding hybrids, I'd like to be reasonably certain that my stock is as "pure" as possible.

Since it is so hard to tell, and it's generally acknowledged that there are probably a lot of hybrids passing for pure, I'm not sure what keeping corns pure means or why it would be desirable. Could you elaborate?

 

[Roy Munson]

Since it is so hard to tell, and it's generally acknowledged that there are probably a lot of hybrids passing for pure, I'm not sure what keeping corns pure means or why it would be desirable. Could you elaborate?

These are good points. I should clarify that I don't go to bed worrying about whether my ultra morphs are pure, or whether a breeder in the '70s used emoryi to bulk up their hatchling sizes in the ancestors of my other "pure" corns. 100% purity isn't a guaranteed thing, even with W/C corns.

Keeping corns pure (or as pure as possible) means that you have many generations where hybridization didn't occur or was highly unlikely to have occurred. If you buy a Serpenco corn, you can be reasonably certain that Rich didn't sneak a yellow rat in there somewhere. If you buy from Fred Nobody, you may not have that level of certainty unless you know where his stock came from. If you have real concerns about the history of the Ultra gene, you may avoid them altogether.

Why would purity be desirable? Because we're humans, and we have these odd prejudices and preferences. A lab retriever enthusiast would probably choose a lab with demonstrably pure bloodlines. A classic car enthusiast would pay many times more for an original auto part than they would for a newly fabricated (and possibly better-designed) part. Locality Okeetee enthusiasts will seek animals with verifiable ties to the Hunt Club.

 

[Kevin S.]

This thread is off to a pretty good start-I was expecting things to take a turn for the worse pretty quickly once I read the title. I currently keep a hybrid and have kept some in the past, so I'm obviously not against keeping and producing them. To be fair, I do see this potential problem with them:

Right now I have a jungle corn (50% cal king, 50% corn), but no female jungle corn to breed him with. He's het for amel, caramel, and motley, so it'd make sense to breed him with a corn that compliments those genetics and from what I've seen the resulting 75% corns would look very nice. However, a percentage of that clutch would probably resemble "pure" corns and therein likes the problem. If people want a hybrid, they tend to want a snake that looks like a hybrid. I don't know many people who want a snake that looks a lot like a corn, but is 25% cal king because what would they be able to breed it with? Pretty much just another corn.

I think that's why some unscrupulous breeders would sell hybrids as pure animals, though I also don't think it's right for us as a hobby to shun all hybrids because of this potential problem. That'd be kind of like not breeding morphs because people could lie about hets. How many breeders have stopped working with morphs because they're so concerned about the chance of that happening?

Anyway, as I see it the worst case scenario is someone buys what they think is a pure corn and it is actually a hybrid with heavy corn influence. Say this happens and they breed it. What do you think they'd breed it to? I'd say a corn. So if you have a hybrid that's 75% corn (and looks like one) and breed it to a pure corn, my bet is that you'd get a bunch of hatchlings that look an awful lot like corns. There may be a few odd individuals, but my point is that after crossing them back to corns for a couple generations you wouldn't see much hybrid influence if any. So I don't think mislabeling hybrids is the hypothetical disaster that many make it out to be, but it could become a problem considering the dishonesty of some breeders.

 

[Maize411]

And I'm the odd-ball here..lol...I'm actually aiming for hybrids myself..I have every intention on attempting to breed maize with my Cali. King Sythe..I'm not sure if I'll be successful but I do love the way jungle corns look...I'll also be breeding her to my corn Striker so I will be getting some pure corn babies as well..So I like both and think both have their own unigue beauty..as for purity...It doesn't matter all to much to me as long as the corn is healthy and happy..but then again I'm not into the reptile business end where I'm trying to make money from good stock..I'm just in it for the fun and love of it :0)

 

[rolandslf]

Firstly, Congrats on being able to discuss Hybrids in a civilised manner.
Personally, I am interested in breeding for Hybridity but I will never sell any resultant offspring, maybe a selfish thought but I would only do this for my own personal collection.

Ciao

 

[dionythicus]

Most people on here who know me also know that I embrace hybrids and have lots of them. I believe that a major obstacle in bringing many people around to hybrids is in honesty when selling. Just because I love the looks of certain hybrids, I would be upset if I had purchased a "pure" corn and it turned out to be a hybrid mostly because the seller lied. Legitimate hybrid breeders know that they may have to hold onto their hatchlings longer and not pawn them off as pure anything. The market still isn't huge for hybrids. There has been debate in the past on euthanising hatchlings that looked too "pure" in order to prevent any confusion down the road. I can understand that thought process, but don't know how I actually feel about it.

 

[Susan]

I fully understand why some people want to keep corn snakes "pure" and dislike hybrids, but I can also understand why others love them. For me, I love some and don't care for others. It's just a personal taste for certain looks. I feel the same way about a few corn morphs.

For those breeders that want to keep their corn snakes as "pure" as possible, I applaud you. Do what you feel you must to keep your lines as "pure" as possible. But please, don't belittle or persecute those that love hybrids and intergrades. With the constantly changing classifications of rat snakes, what may be an intergrade today will be considered "pure" tomorrow, and vice versa. With the ACR, the purists will hopefully have a wider base to obtain fresh breeding stock from while maintaining the purity of the snakes they produce. These breeders will be highly unlikely to even consider purchasing their future breeders from Fred Breeder whose stock may be questionable as to its purity. But for a large percentage of corn snake lovers who often choose their next snake on looks alone, Fred Breeder may have exactly what they're looking for, even if it might be 12.5% Emoryi.

The appeal of hybrids to me is definitely their different look. That may be why I don't care for many creams and rootbeers as they often too closely resemble corns. I do sort of like the look of the striped creams I'm seeing posted on this forum, but I'm far more interested in the hybrids that look like hybrids. Like Maize411, I'm hoping to produce hybrids in the future. I have a female super corn (3/4 corn 1/4 Cali king) that is het motley and I'm hoping to pair her up with something different every year, once she reaches maturity. I'll also be mixing other kings, corns and rat snakes together in all sorts of combinations, just to see the unique surprises inside each egg.

As to whether I will cull any offspring that don't look hybrid, I'll just have to see. I'm definitely not against it, but should I happen to decide to sell them, they WILL be labeled as hybrids. I also plan on labeling the butter offspring from my golddust X butter pairing as being from ultra lines, as some people are unsure about the purity of the ultra gene. Personally, I love the look and can't wait to see the white-sided gene in combo with some of the corn morphs as well as in other hybrids (that lovely brown and yellow color of many jungles with a white-side...YUMMY!).

But as soon as someone tries to cross a BP with a corn, THEN they will have crossed the line!

 

[bitsy]

I also plan on labeling the butter offspring from my golddust X butter pairing as being from ultra lines, as some people are unsure about the purity of the ultra gene.

I'll hopefully be producing these next year and I plan to do the same thing.

As long as hybrids (and potential hybrids and F2/3/4 etc. offspring of hybrids) are supplied with sufficient info for the buyer to make an informed decision, then that's the best we can hope for.

Of course, what will happen when one of my Golddust-derived Butters is bred with a straight Butter by the buyer... That's where I see the potential problem.

 

[MegF.]

My issue with hybrids is back to the selling them as something other than a hybrid. Frankly, if you can't tell it's a hybrid then what's the point of breeding it? I don't like hybrids that are something that would never occur in the wild. I think it's un-natural and well....just not right. That would be kingsnake/cornsnake hybrids. To have to trick something into breeding just seems wrong...especially when that other thing would normally be a meal. Cornsnakes and ratsnakes breed naturally in the wild, and hybrids between them occur in areas where the territories overlap. Cornsnakes were even in the ratsnakes family for a long time before receiving their own designation of pantherophis instead of elaphe. While many hybrids are quite beautiful, I prefer to just trying to improve the looks of the existing animal instead of trying to mix it with something that would never breed with it in the wild.

 

[SnakesRule1234]

Simply put, I like hybrids, as long as they are labeled correctly.

 

[batwrangler]

I'm particularly interested in the bias against corn/rat hybrids: as has been noticed, corns and rats have been classed as the same species in the past and naturally interbreed. So why is there so much emphasis on keeping corns free from rat snake hybrids? And why the insistance that a corn with any drop of emoryi blood in it be labeled a hybrid? And finally, why so much concern over whether Ultra is emoryi derived?

 

[MegF.]

They are indeed placed in separate categories so it would make them a hybrid. While there is interbreeding between the two in areas where they overlap, there is still plenty of pure corn to corn breedings to justify keeping the two pure. They certainly don't look alike when you see them side by side. If you're going to sell a hybrid...list it as a hybrid. Those who like the looks..buy them. Just don't misrepresent. It's unethical. I think that's the main reason for the rat/corn bias. Too many are being represented as pure corns. When I buy a cornsnake, I would appreciate knowing that to your knowledge...it's a pure corn. I don't want a rat snake. It would go both ways of course.

 

[cka]

So why is there so much emphasis on keeping corns free from rat snake hybrids?

I don't think there's a great emphasis on it; you see lots of "What is my snake" posts every year from folks who thought they bought a corn when it turns out it's a cross. That may tickle them pink, or it can be a big let down. A lot of crosses get sold to petstores and/or bulked out to wholesalers every year.

And why the insistance that a corn with any drop of emoryi blood in it be labeled a hybrid?

Not everyone insists on it, but some do, and it's because they want to know what they have is what they have...and it's not a hybrid, it's an integrade

And finally, why so much concern over whether Ultra is emoryi derived

The concern is whether or not it's gray rat derived (last I heard) and for the same reasons everyone has talked about; they want to what they have is what they have :*)

Like everyone else who cares to think about it, I have my own opinions on corn/rat crosses. But as a member of the herp community I have to respect the opinion of those who insist hybrids are bad for the hobby, pollute the gene pool, etc etc. even when i don't agree. Way too many people breed whatever they have on hand "just to see" without thinking of the consequences. For some, the "consequences" can ruin (at least to them) years worth of breeding trials...

 

[Duff]

I'm particularly interested in the bias against corn/rat hybrids: as has been noticed, corns and rats have been classed as the same species in the past and naturally interbreed. So why is there so much emphasis on keeping corns free from rat snake hybrids? And why the insistance that a corn with any drop of emoryi blood in it be labeled a hybrid? And finally, why so much concern over whether Ultra is emoryi derived?

Personally, I think part of it comes down to money. A new "pure" gene brings in alot of money early on. A new cross gene won't bring in nearly as high a premium. Which could lead some to claim pure and not always be totally honest in the genetic background. And I think this also causes some of the skepticism with new genes.

I'd be all for just putting all rat snakes in one big bin, breeding/keeping wise. Not that I expect anything like that to ever happen, but there's really no way to know if any corn is pure. Even wild caught may be crosses, because they do cross in the wild at times.

 

[zorro]

Everyone knows it is an almost a given that ultramels and ultras are hybrids but why are they so excepted where others are not? Where do you draw the line, at rats or beyond?

 

[TandJ]

Corn X Python... Humm no thank you Susan.. Theres already enough Corn Balls around here as it is..

Emoryi X's don't me much, and well I am not 100% convinced that all ultramels came from the White Oak, Grey Rat cross eithier.. However, you won't find me making jungles, Sinacorns or other strange crosses.. I thought about doing a bairdi corn cross just for pure intrest, of course if I sold the babies from that cross, they would be in hands I trust, and not just anyone, or maybe even contribute to feeding some of the kings around here..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[batwrangler]

Everyone knows it is an almost a given that ultramels and ultras are hybrids but why are they so excepted where others are not? Where do you draw the line, at rats or beyond?

I'd draw the line at rats because a) corns and rats used to be considered regional subspecies of the same species, b) they naturally interbreed, c) a lot of "pure corns" in the pet trade are likely to be corn/rat in some (however minute) percentage, and d) the species are still very closely related (all within elaphe/pantherophis).