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Why are hybrids evil?
- Thread starter batwrangler
- Start date
zorro
Old Guy
I agree with you on that, rats and corns are very close. I think as long as people know what they are buying.
batwrangler
New member
I have no idea how they are induced to mate. This would probably be a good question for a new thread.
Most people here (including myself) are strong against cohabbing*, so that wouldn't be an issue.
*search for it, please, rather than adding it to this discussion.
westexherps
I Brake For Snakes
I see no problem with normal hybrid/integrades in colubrids. Some of the other boid crosses can bother me slightly. I am in a agreement that as long as something is labeled correctly there shouldn't be a problem.
To answer the earlier question: Last year we produced 50/50 Corn/King aka Jungles. I had no problem getting the snakes to breed. I used an unusually large female corn and a male king....they locked up as soon as the male was in the tank. If it had been more difficult I probably would not have done it. I know that others have had problems getting the two to breed, at that point I would say it just wasn't meant to be. Often people that breed Jungles say that using a male corn and female king are a good way to go, I just chose what I thought was the best two candidates and watched very close until the breeding was over.
To answer the earlier question: Last year we produced 50/50 Corn/King aka Jungles. I had no problem getting the snakes to breed. I used an unusually large female corn and a male king....they locked up as soon as the male was in the tank. If it had been more difficult I probably would not have done it. I know that others have had problems getting the two to breed, at that point I would say it just wasn't meant to be. Often people that breed Jungles say that using a male corn and female king are a good way to go, I just chose what I thought was the best two candidates and watched very close until the breeding was over.
tyflier
[Insert Witty Commentary]
IMO...honesty, integrity, and ethical business maneuvers are the bottom line. If everyone is 100% honest about the lineage and what, exactly, they are selling, hybrids should not be frowned upon...those that don't want them, don't buy them.
I think part of the problem is uncertainty. You mentioned the Ultra gene. I don't think the problem is with the gene or even with the possibility of being the result of an intergrade. I think the majority of the problem is with the potential dishonesty with which the original "developers" offered the original stock. Stories were told, than changed, and than left unanswered and ignored. That's not only innapropriate and unethical...it's dishonest. Even if the gene is NOT the result of intergradation...the lack of honesty from the outset is bothersome.
Many here know my position. I have no problem with intergrades or hybrids. I plan on a few hybrids in the future, and I actually enjoy the looks of some of the ratsnake intergrades available. But I won't by a snake with Ultra lineage. Not because I have an issue with intergrades but because I have an issue with dishonesty and uncertainty. Because the lineage of these snakes is considered so uncertain, there is no way for me to be certain and honest myself. So I will avoid the gene until more is known. Could that potentially cost me money and/or new combinations in the future? Sure. Does that bother? Not really. I have made this decision for myself. Because I cannot find a way for to be 100% honest about the gene in my own stock, I would rather avoid it altogether until I CAN be more reasonably assured of it's purity...or not. Even if I find out it is NOT from pure cornsnake lines...that's OK by me...as long as the lineage is known. I don't like dealing with uncertainty...
As a further example...I "borrowed" a large male corn earlier in the year that I was going to use for some breedings. When I got him, I didn't like the way he looked. He looked "off" to me, and a few others as well. I suspect he was a corn X yellow rat cross. Rather than worry about the uncertainty...I simply did not use him, informed his owner of my suspicions, and gave him back. I would rather not have the genes than be uncertain about them...
I think part of the problem is uncertainty. You mentioned the Ultra gene. I don't think the problem is with the gene or even with the possibility of being the result of an intergrade. I think the majority of the problem is with the potential dishonesty with which the original "developers" offered the original stock. Stories were told, than changed, and than left unanswered and ignored. That's not only innapropriate and unethical...it's dishonest. Even if the gene is NOT the result of intergradation...the lack of honesty from the outset is bothersome.
Many here know my position. I have no problem with intergrades or hybrids. I plan on a few hybrids in the future, and I actually enjoy the looks of some of the ratsnake intergrades available. But I won't by a snake with Ultra lineage. Not because I have an issue with intergrades but because I have an issue with dishonesty and uncertainty. Because the lineage of these snakes is considered so uncertain, there is no way for me to be certain and honest myself. So I will avoid the gene until more is known. Could that potentially cost me money and/or new combinations in the future? Sure. Does that bother? Not really. I have made this decision for myself. Because I cannot find a way for to be 100% honest about the gene in my own stock, I would rather avoid it altogether until I CAN be more reasonably assured of it's purity...or not. Even if I find out it is NOT from pure cornsnake lines...that's OK by me...as long as the lineage is known. I don't like dealing with uncertainty...
As a further example...I "borrowed" a large male corn earlier in the year that I was going to use for some breedings. When I got him, I didn't like the way he looked. He looked "off" to me, and a few others as well. I suspect he was a corn X yellow rat cross. Rather than worry about the uncertainty...I simply did not use him, informed his owner of my suspicions, and gave him back. I would rather not have the genes than be uncertain about them...
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
I just read this thread and there are a lot of good points. Most people talked about honesty, hybrids, phenotypes and “Pure” Corns. When we consider these things, we need to evaluate what we are basing many of our opinions on.
Stories change, peoples memories evolve, and 90% of the people who posted on this thread, will not be around some time in the near future, or after only a few breeding seasons. These honest peoples intentions are now lost forever, hybrid or pure and “Pure as far as I know" starts all over again. "Pure as far as I know" has been starting over and over again , since the 1950’s with Amel. Amel is mixed in with almost every morph now and it is linked to the two most common hybrids.
How can we come to any logical conclusion, if the most common proof of honesty is the statement. “Pure as far as I know“. What does this really mean? Is the lack of knowledge proof of honest? I think the lack of knowledge, is no proof at all, except when we need to try to prove to ourselves, that we are working with pure Corns, which apparently is a more worthy cause than working with Ultras, or Creamcicles. If you decided to eliminate Ultras or Creamcicles from you colony to help with the purity of your Corns, then if you do not eliminate Amel, you have wasted your time. Amel is a by product of these two hybrids, and most of them get wholesale. “But, I buy my Corns from Breeder X.” True, but this has been going on for nearly 60 years now.
Rich Z, Don S, and I all have different positions about the purity of Ultras, but we all sell our Amels from Ultra lines to wholesalers. Avoiding Ultras is only avoiding HALF, of the potential hybrid blood from the Ultra line. When these Amels get reintroduced into our world, they are sold as “Pure as far as I know” Amels. They look like Amels and are pure again.
My main beef with sudo purest, is there is a better way to maintain the purity of their Corns, with the ACR. If they really wanted the purest Corns they could find and have decided this is the very most important thing to them about keeping Corns, they could go the extra step, but they do not. They fall back on no knowledge, no history, pure as far as they know.
Personally, I find it hard to understand their logic. With the ACR, you can look back as far as you would like too, not as far as you know, which is usually very little. 20 years from now, you can trace lineage of Corns with the ACR, but some purest will still be using as far as they know.
Honesty is important and the ACR depends on this as well, but recording something today, with a definite beginning, is far more credible, than stories passed down, from generation to generation, that has no beginning point, no chain of events, no nothing, except for some reason, it causes some people to believe that these baseless stories are keeping our Corns pure. Do people who use, “Pure as far as I know”, really believe this?
Purest do have a choice. Localities from any area, such as the Hunt Club, some lines of Lava, Bloods, wild caught Anerys and now the Golden Corn (if it proves out) and there will be more discoveries, so purest can even work with morphs. If you really are a purest, take the next step and quit playing games.
Stories change, peoples memories evolve, and 90% of the people who posted on this thread, will not be around some time in the near future, or after only a few breeding seasons. These honest peoples intentions are now lost forever, hybrid or pure and “Pure as far as I know" starts all over again. "Pure as far as I know" has been starting over and over again , since the 1950’s with Amel. Amel is mixed in with almost every morph now and it is linked to the two most common hybrids.
How can we come to any logical conclusion, if the most common proof of honesty is the statement. “Pure as far as I know“. What does this really mean? Is the lack of knowledge proof of honest? I think the lack of knowledge, is no proof at all, except when we need to try to prove to ourselves, that we are working with pure Corns, which apparently is a more worthy cause than working with Ultras, or Creamcicles. If you decided to eliminate Ultras or Creamcicles from you colony to help with the purity of your Corns, then if you do not eliminate Amel, you have wasted your time. Amel is a by product of these two hybrids, and most of them get wholesale. “But, I buy my Corns from Breeder X.” True, but this has been going on for nearly 60 years now.
Rich Z, Don S, and I all have different positions about the purity of Ultras, but we all sell our Amels from Ultra lines to wholesalers. Avoiding Ultras is only avoiding HALF, of the potential hybrid blood from the Ultra line. When these Amels get reintroduced into our world, they are sold as “Pure as far as I know” Amels. They look like Amels and are pure again.
My main beef with sudo purest, is there is a better way to maintain the purity of their Corns, with the ACR. If they really wanted the purest Corns they could find and have decided this is the very most important thing to them about keeping Corns, they could go the extra step, but they do not. They fall back on no knowledge, no history, pure as far as they know.
Personally, I find it hard to understand their logic. With the ACR, you can look back as far as you would like too, not as far as you know, which is usually very little. 20 years from now, you can trace lineage of Corns with the ACR, but some purest will still be using as far as they know.
Honesty is important and the ACR depends on this as well, but recording something today, with a definite beginning, is far more credible, than stories passed down, from generation to generation, that has no beginning point, no chain of events, no nothing, except for some reason, it causes some people to believe that these baseless stories are keeping our Corns pure. Do people who use, “Pure as far as I know”, really believe this?
Purest do have a choice. Localities from any area, such as the Hunt Club, some lines of Lava, Bloods, wild caught Anerys and now the Golden Corn (if it proves out) and there will be more discoveries, so purest can even work with morphs. If you really are a purest, take the next step and quit playing games.
batwrangler
New member
I'm learning a lot from this thread and appreciate how civil it is staying!
Limiting this to just corn/rat hybrids/intergrades (as I have been from the start of this thread), why is "purity" desirable?
Many corns and rats were once considered regional subspecies, not separate species (Kisatchie, great plains rats).
Speaking of Kisatchie and great plains, breeders working with those snakes when they were considered to be subspecies sold those snakes and their offspring as "pure" corns in all honesty because, to the best of their knowledge and the conscensus of the scientific community, they were.
And what happens if, in a few years, Upper Keys, Miamis, or Okeetees get promoted to full species status?
We can't be certain wild-caught snakes from areas where the species overlap aren't intergrades (they freely interbreed in the wild).
It is generally acknowledged that "pure corns" in the pet trade probably aren't 100% pure. Rat snake blood has improved captive-bred corn stock (more robust hatchlings, better feeding response) and may have provided some of the genes we value (amel, ultra).
And, as Joe mentions, the ACR is a great tool for keeping good, easily accessible records, which should ultimately allow people to track the bloodlines of their stock for many generations.
Purity for its own sake, when speaking about hybrid/integrades between the North American corn/rat species, doesn't seem very practical (or even desirable) to me.
Limiting this to just corn/rat hybrids/intergrades (as I have been from the start of this thread), why is "purity" desirable?
Many corns and rats were once considered regional subspecies, not separate species (Kisatchie, great plains rats).
Speaking of Kisatchie and great plains, breeders working with those snakes when they were considered to be subspecies sold those snakes and their offspring as "pure" corns in all honesty because, to the best of their knowledge and the conscensus of the scientific community, they were.
And what happens if, in a few years, Upper Keys, Miamis, or Okeetees get promoted to full species status?
We can't be certain wild-caught snakes from areas where the species overlap aren't intergrades (they freely interbreed in the wild).
It is generally acknowledged that "pure corns" in the pet trade probably aren't 100% pure. Rat snake blood has improved captive-bred corn stock (more robust hatchlings, better feeding response) and may have provided some of the genes we value (amel, ultra).
And, as Joe mentions, the ACR is a great tool for keeping good, easily accessible records, which should ultimately allow people to track the bloodlines of their stock for many generations.
Purity for its own sake, when speaking about hybrid/integrades between the North American corn/rat species, doesn't seem very practical (or even desirable) to me.
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MegF.
That's for sale???
Okeetees, Miami's and others such as that are still cornsnakes. Just versions of normals. Okeetees are named for the Okeetee Hunt Club plain and simple. They aren't a different species, merely a different color variation of that species and really they can only be called true Okeetees if they are from original stock. Anything else is considered a Okeetee look or type. Most likely those of us who have locality animals will never know for certain if there was a rat integrade in there unless someone bothered with DNA testing. However, to deliberately breed an integrade and then sell it as pure is just fraud. Hybrids are a different story. They would never breed in the wild and are being artificially produced by basically tricking one snake or the other to believe it's breeding something it's not. Most hybrids in other species are sterile as the chromasomes are too different to get viable offspring if two are bred together. I don't like hybrids. I think they are totally unatural.
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
It is a little like religion.
It is faith based and elevates ones own self worth. Breeding “pure” Corns is a worthy cause. Owning a pure bred, is special and valued.
I understand why many choose to keep quite about this subject. In time, these discusions go away or are forgotten, out with the old, in with the new, and the faith based purity continues.
A good example is Ultra. We discovered it is an allele with Amel. They seemed to be everywhere, and everybody starts breeding them to Amel. What an exciting morph! You can rocket speed ahead, creating morphs twice as fast as we ever could before. I created new morphs in two years that took three times that long before, with the Amel Super Highway that preceded Ultra.
Hybrid talk, inter-grade talk, and more talk, and about 50% of the people believe Ultra had Gray Rat bred into the line early on. Nicely priced morphs that people could not find before, drop in value by 50%. The hybrid talk in Ultras is nothing new, it has been talked about before, but time heels. Everybody was excited when they were a new discovery, but when the hybrid talk came up again, look what happened.
Absolutely nothing had really changed. People have been breeding Ultramel X Amel for 15 years and didn’t have a clue what was going on. They have been selling the Amels from these clutches as “pure as far as I knows”, Amels. Now all of a sudden, anything with the Ultra name is bad.
As you can see, if we don’t talk about this, time will heel it, and Ultras will be “pure as far as we know“, just like the rest of the morphs. Are any of the breeders that sell Ultramels, doing anything different than they did before really? When you buy an Amel based morph, do you even think about asking if it came from an Ultra line? Some buyers will of course, but when you see them on a price list, does this even cross your mind?
I have started listing them in a separate section under “Ultra line” and will treat them like Creamcicles, which by the way have been around a long time and have a nice following. If it turns out that I am the only one doing this, and 1000 of others are not, I will follow suit with other established breeders. The fact is, it is too late, everybody know it, and most are choosing to do nothing about it and especially are not talking about it unless pushed. Talking about this will not change what has already been done.
Personally, I am going to stick with Ultras. The prices would have came down and stabilized above equal Amel morphs in a couple more years anyway. The relationship between Amel and Ultra is an exciting, fun, accelerated way to go, especially for newer people getting into the hobby. If you can figure out how the Amel and Ultra genes work together to create new morphs, and combine them with other morphs, you will see immediate results, with lots of different looking morphs in the clutches. With this experience you may decided to begin longer projects the old fashion way.
Ultras are here to stay, hate them or love them, everybody can choose their own segment of this hobby that interest them. I am going to used Ultra to see what is out there. I can definitely create new similar morph quicker with Ultra, and I like seeing all the new morphs I can. They had already been mixed with our Corns for 15 years, most larger breeders had them in their colonies and many of them had been breeding them for years, and now, we are going to label them as something bad? Where is the logic? From what I have seen, the Ultra line Corns are extremely hardy and vigorous, just like you would expect from a constantly out crossed line. If I gave you the choice between an Ultra line Amels side by side with an equal Amel morph and didn’t tell you which was which, you might be surprised at which one you would choose.
We can keep Creamcicles, Ultras, and our Morphs as pure as we can, and ACR registered pure wild lines grouped. Pick one, or all, that interest you, do the best you can with them and have fun.
Vinman
Vinman
there is nothing with the Ultras having gray rat in them at least for the animals that came out of a 3 gen cross back to corn. In fact it is a raerity but obsoletea and gutta cross in the wild. I sure if you took DNA test on cornsnakes from the wild, a small persent would have some ammount of rat snake DNA in them, from the area that they both came from.