unusual outcome from sulfur clutch

ok guys, heres one for you all to look at for me.. if you wouldnt mind.
Should be a straight forward sulfur, from a caramel bloodred het amel to sulfur pairing. I did the same pairing last year and didnt get whatever this is. Inner eye area is like green and outter is red, or other way round.. cant remember.
anyway, looks nothing like any sulfur I have ever hatched, and I;'ve been hatching them for 3 years and from 2 different lines..
any ideas??

May have an amber diffused.

Amberblood would fit, if these animals are related to the german caramelblood lineage. Hypo A popps up pretty often in that lineage.

maybe you can take some pics when this little fellow emerged?!

Just think, if it is hypo and you did this cross last year, some of those sulfurs were hypo sulfurs...some of this years could be too

Makes it fun :cheers:

Shiari said:

May have an amber diffused.

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I have hatched amber bloods for the last 3 or 4 years, and never had one look remotely like this... also did the same pairing last year and didnt get one,. just checked the eggs and there are 5 or 6 of these??. I hope they are not goldust bloodreds.. although I guess thyat wouldnt be the worst outcome.

JimGERcream said:

Amberblood would fit, if these animals are related to the german caramelblood lineage. Hypo A popps up pretty often in that lineage.

maybe you can take some pics when this little fellow emerged?!

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Having done the pairing before and also using the male sulfur on other females I have never come across hypos yet.. but as above, amber bloodrd wouldnt be the worst outcome.

chris68 said:

Just think, if it is hypo and you did this cross last year, some of those sulfurs were hypo sulfurs...some of this years could be too

Makes it fun :cheers:

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Hatched hypo sulfur for the last 3 or 4 years too, but the eyes dont look right at all.. I have got some more pics, but not at home, so will get them online asap.

I;'ve taken some more pictures then.. looking at them, I cant see how they are not homo amel??. There is an obvious sulfur next to a few of these that I cant ID yet...

so do you guys think these are goldust bloodreds?.. I cant see anything else they can be..

I had a Golddust Bloodred last year. Looked identicle. I also had Amberbloods which are difficult to distinguish, but not impossible for someone with a trained eye.

I've been following this via Blackberry so I'm not seeing it that great, but up close look they look like ultramels. So many Golddust projects were going on at one time; what does the sulfur look like? Sure its not already an ultramel caramel bloodred? To get ultramels and amels this year and only amels last an Ultramel caramel bloodred X caramel bloodred het amel would give you results like you've had.

any chance to get some pics which are....not tiny?

I'd bet everyone could give a better guess...

JimGERcream said:

any chance to get some pics which are....not tiny?

I'd bet everyone could give a better guess...

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I just post em as they copy lol.. never was much good with technology. I'll have a go at some point though.

chris68 said:

I've been following this via Blackberry so I'm not seeing it that great, but up close look they look like ultramels. So many Golddust projects were going on at one time; what does the sulfur look like? Sure its not already an ultramel caramel bloodred? To get ultramels and amels this year and only amels last an Ultramel caramel bloodred X caramel bloodred het amel would give you results like you've had.

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standard sulfur to be honest, I dont see him being anything else. I have put him to loads of amel based snakes over the years and never got anything that I wasnt expecting, so it must be the female carrying something ultra wise.

dont think I mentioned it yet, the 1st snake out, came out on its own before I took pictures, this was a normal caramel bloodred.

caramel bloodred het ultra (instead of amel, and it can't be het for both unless it is an ultramel) X amel caramel bloodred wouldn't produce anything amel, only ultramels...Thats pretty weird man

Any chance we could see pics looking directly down on top of their heads? To see the head pattern directly? They look interesting.

And you are 100%, swear on your mother's grave, cross your heart and hope to die sure that the female was never, ever, NEVER put in any container, bag, etc with ANY other snake, male or female for even the briefest of moments? Do you HAVE a golddust or golddust blood in your collection and could two clutches have gotten mixed up? And are the hatchlings in question definitely bloodreds?

Just throwing out some thinking material as they sure do look like golddusts and the odds of it being a naturally occurring/spontaneous mutation in that many hatchlings is phenomenal.

Another thought, what is the lineage of the sulfur male? If there is any ultra in his lineage, there is a slight chance of his being a partial chimera with perhaps only one testes that is actually a golddust. If so, and it was sperm from the other, genetically sulfur, testes that fertilized the clutch from last year, but the golddust one this year, it IS an explanation. I am not sure if one hemipene uses only one testes and the other hemipene for the other testes (I don't think so, but I am trying to look it up now, but computer is lagging).

Now if there is not a snowball's chance on the sun there is ultra perhaps even several generations back, then...never mind!

chris68 said:

caramel bloodred het ultra (instead of amel, and it can't be het for both unless it is an ultramel) X amel caramel bloodred wouldn't produce anything amel, only ultramels...Thats pretty weird man

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Thats it, very weird.

dave partington said:

Any chance we could see pics looking directly down on top of their heads? To see the head pattern directly? They look interesting.

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They should pretty much all be out today, so will definately get some more shots, hopefully much better ones for you all to see.

Susan said:

And you are 100%, swear on your mother's grave, cross your heart and hope to die sure that the female was never, ever, NEVER put in any container, bag, etc with ANY other snake, male or female for even the briefest of moments? Do you HAVE a golddust or golddust blood in your collection and could two clutches have gotten mixed up? And are the hatchlings in question definitely bloodreds?

Just throwing out some thinking material as they sure do look like golddusts and the odds of it being a naturally occurring/spontaneous mutation in that many hatchlings is phenomenal.

Another thought, what is the lineage of the sulfur male? If there is any ultra in his lineage, there is a slight chance of his being a partial chimera with perhaps only one testes that is actually a golddust. If so, and it was sperm from the other, genetically sulfur, testes that fertilized the clutch from last year, but the golddust one this year, it IS an explanation. I am not sure if one hemipene uses only one testes and the other hemipene for the other testes (I don't think so, but I am trying to look it up now, but computer is lagging).

Now if there is not a snowball's chance on the sun there is ultra perhaps even several generations back, then...never mind!

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This is the thing Susan, I've been breeding for a fair while now, slightly back into the last century, and had a hell of a lot of clutches during this time, including over 40 this year. I'm quite big on only using one male, generally if the female doesnt lay from the one male then she doesnt lay that year.
This girl has been with this male, and this one only for this and the last 2 years. I havent put her with any other snake for even the shortest time, even when cleaning or anything like that.
The male sulfur was german breed, which I purchased at the Hamm show in 2008 as a big yearling. The female caramel bloodred was purchased as a het amel and I believe possible het hypo from the US around that same year or the year after. Just trying to remember when I got her and who from??... I may have to come back on that one. I have never tried her with another male at all, so whatever the answer is, its from her and the male sulfur only... so at least I know that much, which will make it easier to answer in the longer term. as I say though, I'll be trying my best to get more pictures asap.
Thanks for the answers so far guys, any more info where possible will be much appreciated.

sorry missed a bit, I dont have any goldusts at this point now in my collection, and all hatchlings SHOULD be bloodred from this pairing. I have only had the caramel bloodred out at the moment as the rest were all partly still in the eggs when I last saw.. shame I dont keep them at my house, or i'd be in there now lol.. this clutch and 3 more were hatching last time I went, so its going to be a busy day today, thank god I'm off work for 2 days lol.

ok, tried to get some a bit bigger, this one is as large as I have managed without it going blury.. tell me what you think?.


then these are a few of the normal size ones with clutch mates.

hmm, no the resizing hasnt worked.. ok, give me time, i'll get round it all lol.