Are we what we were bought as?

[Ssthisto]

They look like Becky's beasts lol

That's what I'm worried about, if I'm honest.

I wanted the pure-species project, and I am concerned that they are either corn X black rat hybrids or corn X fox snake hybrids that were mis-sold to the shop I got them from.

 

[bekers71]

That's what I'm worried about, if I'm honest.

I wanted the pure-species project, and I am concerned that they are either corn X black rat hybrids or corn X fox snake hybrids that were mis-sold to the shop I got them from.

Hey! What's wrong with the Beast?? I'm just kidding. LOL

As babies did they look some thing like this?:

Parents are the last pic.

 

[KJUN]

Welllllll, here are my thoughts (assuming the images are accurate representations of the snakes)..... Reasons behind statement.

1. Not pure NA species/subspecies.
2. Has P. obsoletus in it...either black rat or Texas ratsnake. Could be either one. --- Head markings, ventral checkering pattern and shape, &lateral blotches
3. Definitely NOT pure P. emoryi. -- ventral checkering pattern alone indicates thism, but there are some other minor differences.
4. They are NOT P. slowinskii - ventral checkering, head shape, labial markings.

Coloring is off for #3/#4, but I'm ignoring that due to differences in cameras and monitors.

I'd also say not cornsnake due to dorsal pattern, frosting (common in ratsnake hybrids), lateral blotches (although creamsicles have made this less indicitive of "cornsnakes" in captivity), ventral checkering shape, head pattern (although some blood relatives are similar), etc. To be a "cornsnake," it would have to have a LOT of different origins mixed into it to give that particular look - including some creamsicle if you call that a cornsnake. Possible? Yes, but I wouldn't say likely.

Soooo, I'm confident in saying what I believe it is NOT based on those particular images. I'd be nervous saying what it IS.

 

[KJUN]

That's what I'm worried about, if I'm honest.

I wanted the pure-species project, and I am concerned that they are either corn X black rat hybrids or corn X fox snake hybrids that were mis-sold to the shop I got them from.

Fox snake hybrids aren't all that common....at least not here in the US. Breeding seasons are often a little tricky to get matched up, I'd suspect....and Fox aren't the easiest to breed in captivity over MUCH of the US.

Just and FYI...but I am not saying they do not exist, of course!

 

[v_various]

Root beers? I change my vote to Rootbeers.

Either way, they are adorable!

 

[whippet]

I bought them as pure specimens of a species that, as hatchlings, they certainly could have been members of.

However, as they have grown... they no longer look very much like the species they were bought as. I cannot find photos of animals of that species that look like the animals I have *now* even though photos of the species as hatchlings *did* look like Banjo and Dolly as babies. Whether that's because I've got an odd locality or because they aren't the species I thought I was buying is the question.

They were bought as a North American ratsnake species, and the species I bought them as HAS been mentioned on this thread.

Just tell us, this is obnoxious. If you can tell us what they were sold as, maybe someone here has private pictures of them as adults that would come across as similar. This "game" of yours is just annoying and not helpful to people who really wish to learn.

 

[Ssthisto]

Welllllll, here are my thoughts (assuming the images are accurate representations of the snakes)

Colour-wise, the first two photos are the best representations.

1. Not pure NA species/subspecies.
2. Has P. obsoletus in it...either black rat or Texas ratsnake. Could be either one. --- Head markings, ventral checkering pattern and shape, &lateral blotches
3. Definitely NOT pure P. emoryi. -- ventral checkering pattern alone indicates thism, but there are some other minor differences.
4. They are NOT P. slowinskii - ventral checkering, head shape, labial markings.

Thank you for explaining what makes you say "not one of these" or "could be some of that". What would you have expected the ventral checkering to have looked like on the latter two species?

Soooo, I'm confident in saying what I believe it is NOT based on those particular images. I'd be nervous saying what it IS.

Is it plausible that they have SOME cornsnake heritage?

Hey! What's wrong with the Beast?? I'm just kidding. LOL

As babies did they look some thing like this?:

Nothing wrong with The Beast - if that'd been what I wanted in the first place. I do quite like Obsoleta rats (got two, wouldn't mind getting a great big black rat someday) ... but with these two, I was not trying to buy Obsoleta ratsnakes.

Dolly did look a fair bit like the low-head-pattern dark hatchling when she was little.

Root beers? I change my vote to Rootbeers.

Either way, they are adorable!

If they're rootbeers - or indeed anything other than what I've bought them as (and up there above someone who I think is the most likely person to know what "what I bought them as" should look like has said they are *not* what I bought them as) then cute as they may be, they won't be staying.

 

[KJUN]

Just tell us, this is obnoxious. If you can tell us what they were sold as, maybe someone here has private pictures of them as adults that would come across as similar. This "game" of yours is just annoying and not helpful to people who really wish to learn.

Actually, I think the obnoxious interpretation might be yours and not the OP intent. I believe the OP didn't mention what they were purchased as so as to avoid LEADING the potential answers. It's an intelligent tactic in MANY cases.

Granted, I'd like to eventually know what they were bought as, but I am GLAD people had an opportunity to give unbiased answers first.
KJ

 

[KJUN]

> What would you have expected the ventral checkering to have looked like on the latter two species?

In brief, corns and emory have different number of consecutively marked ventrals. ...and the inner (often posterior) edge of each check differs among the members of that complex. Obviously, this is not always the case: Key corns can confuse things in some cases. "True" ratsnakes, obviously, have a completely different ventral pattern in the true form that is pretty familiar.

> Is it plausible that they have SOME cornsnake heritage?

Prolly. I'd guess so, but it would be a guess. I think it would be a GOOD guess, though. Shrug???

 

[diamondlil]

I'm still sticking with 'bought as kisatchies'....because when I looked on this brilliant website (http://kjunsnakehaven.com/elaphe.htm) it showed lots of locality versions. I'm not saying it's what these two are, but I think it's what they were supposed to be.

 

[Ssthisto]

Just tell us, this is obnoxious. If you can tell us what they were sold as, maybe someone here has private pictures of them as adults that would come across as similar. This "game" of yours is just annoying and not helpful to people who really wish to learn.

I'm sorry you find it obnoxious, Whippet.

It is not however a "game" as you put it.

I have not wanted to say what they were purchased as because I don't want expectations to "shape" what people answer - I want them to look at the actual animals and compare them to all possibilities rather than looking at one specific species and saying yes-it-is-or-no-it-isn't without telling me why.

KJUN has already given extremely valuable feedback - namely, that in his opinion they are not what I bought them as, nor are they a number of other things - and what about them makes him say that. I want to know what they are - and what they cannot possibly be.

It's a shame that the animals were mislabelled at the supplier level (not by my local shop) as Kisatchies / P. slowinskii ; the reason I particularly mentioned KJUN's advice is because the photos he'd posted of his animals were what inspired me to try to get some of my own - and some of the ones I looked at when thinking "Hey, Banjo and Dolly don't actually LOOK like that...."

I was really looking forward to Kisatchies as a project.

 

[diamondlil]

What a shame, they are lovely though not what you wanted. I cannot tell you how many 'cristmas corns' I've looked at trying to find a mate for the one genuine one I have, that always turn out to be hypos.
(Do I get a prize though?)

 

[Ssthisto]

Why yes, Diamondlil, you do indeed get a prize for being the first person to mention what they were bought as, even if I was already pretty sure they *weren't* before I posted (I wouldn't have asked if I hadn't had doubts.)

Want a pair of "North American Ratsnakes", species Pantherophis incognitus ?

Sorry I don't have a genuine Christmas-hypo I could give you instead

 

[diamondlil]

Why yes, Diamondlil, you do indeed get a prize for being the first person to mention what they were bought as, even if I was already pretty sure they *weren't* before I posted (I wouldn't have asked if I hadn't had doubts.)

Want a pair of "North American Ratsnakes", species Pantherophis incognitus ?

Sorry I don't have a genuine Christmas-hypo I could give you instead

I would if I had the rack space, the boy especially is certainly a lovely looking snakey!
I'm growing my own christmas het diffused project babies now (Can't buy them, make 'em!:grin01