The humanity of shoebox keeping?

[MegF.]

I think that all animals need stimulus. None of my snakes are kept in tubs except hatchlings and new snakes and even those have natural branches, moss for the arboreals, and something to hide in. Adults in tubs (usually arboreals) have substrate of moss, and natural branches as well as silk plants to provide areas to climb and hide. All the rest of my collection are in custom cages made from melamine and I'm slowly changing them all to natural earth cages. All the arboreals have live plants in their cages as well. This provides moisture and I feel cleaner air as well as something alive. I believe that all things need a connection to living energy. If I can provide it, I will. My snakes are out all the time, most will utilize their entire cage from top to bottom. Even the cornsnakes.

 

[Carinata]

That is what we did. Same crap as Fluker's makes, but $11 bucks less.

Awesome Lauren! I am going to wal mart and the dollar store today to get some stuff!

 

[Candachan]

I actually feel better when my snakes are secure in one spot, if they are too active I worry about them being stressed or burning too much energy. I love racks and tubs and will ALWAYS use them except for display cages, which are purely for the enjoyment of humans and not the snakes. The last display tank I had was for my Potosi King, and he would just sit in the same corner day in and day out.

Their brains are far too simple to give a hoot about tank decorations, if I have a snake that is sitting under their waterbowl for hours and hours, I know I've done well because he is warm, fed, and secure. I have one snake that is constantly out and about, but at the same time he is an absolute eating monster and would eat daily if I let him...maybe because of the fact he burns so much energy? All I know is I never see most of my snakes, and I haven't had a single corn refuse a meal so far this year.

I know a lot of people won't be happy about my opinion, but I honestly feel people pin way too many emotions and feelings on snakes. Anthropomorphism ahoy!

 

[MegF.]

Just because a brain is small doesn't mean that the animal doesn't need to have a stimulating environment. I don't think the snake cares whether the cage decor is a box or a fancy hide, it does however like to have something to explore and investigate. My snakes are active because I don't feed them so much. When I fed weekly, they spent most of their time laying in hides. Now that they get fed every 2-3 weeks, they are out and about, searching for food as they would in nature. It's not stress, it's natural behavior. If they were too stressed or fearful they would be hiding, they wouldn't eat and they wouldn't thrive. I don't care about emotions of a snake, I care about their wellbeing as a whole. While they may not feel love or that sort of thing, they still exhibit curiosity, problem solving and other skills that points to a brain that is perhaps more sophisticated than most think. Just see how they figure out how to get out of a locked cage and you'll know what I'm talking about! If I had a snake that sat day after day in one spot I'd figure it's going to shed and nothing more. The rest of the time they should be active and moving...as they would in the wild. They are geared to moving about to search for food. A sedentary snake is not a snake that is being fulfilled to it's optimum. Will it survive, procreate and live...sure....so would we in sterile conditions. Maybe not happily, but people do. Would it be doing the animal that most good, perhaps not. We already place undue stress by taking what's basically a wild animal and make it live in captivity. I think it's up to us to try to reproduce as closely as we can, the natural living environment of the animal. Zoos are learning that now and are striving to recreate more natural environs for their animals to avoid stress on them.

 

[ceduke]

I like the vine idea, I bet my little snow would enjoy it. My Hognose doesn't seem to 'like' it when I rearrange her tub or add new things. She's normally a fairly active gal, but if I put new things in her tub or move her hide, she doesn't come out for days. So I keep her tub the same all the time. The others get new stuff from time to time though.

 

[Candachan]

"Will it survive, procreate and live...sure....so would we in sterile conditions. Maybe not happily, but people do."

Snakes are nothing like humans. Nothing. A snake cannot be "happy". Again, you are comparing them to people and that's just insane. About as silly as comparing humans to machines. And a snake will do just as well in a "sterile" environment, as you say, as long as their basic needs are met. In the scientific community, laboratory standards do call for enrichment for mammals, the more "intelligent" the animal the more enrichment it needs. Reptiles, amphibians, fish, and insects are not required to have such enrichment because they do not need it.

I don't see how recreating the most natural environment is supposed to be good for the animal, considering nature is a pretty horrible place. If you want the most natural environment you feed them live, throw them into some dirt full of bugs, and put the tank out on your porch.

Put decorations in the tank, I don't care. Just don't suggest that they need them to survive and that people who don't provide them aren't being "as good of an owner as me". Keep them in tubs or tanks, give them aspen or carpet, give them vines or not. These "extras" are for the owner's benefit, plain and simple.

 

[shevy_b]

Your desire to entertain your snakes is the definition of anthropomorphism. Put them in a big cage if it makes you feel better. Give them toys if it makes you feel better. But be honest with yourself about your motives.

If you're unsure whether snakes can feel bored or not, then it's not anthropomorphism to try to entertain them. I think most people would agree that animals with higher level function do in fact feel bored and find weird things to do just for fun. Its not only a human trait. And even though there is no evidence that snakes get bored.... maybe they do. Maybe food is priority, and the viper that will sit all day/week waiting for food to go by is only concerned by its first priority. So if in an unnatural environment, we constantly provide food and our snakes are never extremely hungry, or when they are full... maybe they do get bored. If it's your opinion that they don't, then great, satisfy their basic needs. If you feel like maybe they do then as you said, put them in a big cage (with fancy toys) if it makes you feel better, maybe you're right.

Personally my tank is very basic. I have no reason to think that Damien gets bored. But when he outgrows his current home, I plan to get him a bigger tank with climbing vines/"fancy toys" because likely he doesn't feel bored. But maybe he does.

 

[shevy_b]

Also, I agree that fancy looking things are for human enjoyment... so you can make your environment stimulating without paying a ton of money for it.

 

[shevy_b]

Snakes are nothing like humans. Nothing. A snake cannot be "happy". Again, you are comparing them to people and that's just insane. About as silly as comparing humans to machines.

I know it's not quite the same... but would you say that dogs or cats or horses can be happy? I don't think humans are the only things that can hold "human like emotions". This also depends on your definition of happiness. Most basically though, isn't being happy having your needs fulfilled and not wanting more? Can't a snake have its needs fulfilled and not be wanting anything (ie food, shelter... etc)? And maybe it does want a vine to climb on.

 

[Candachan]

I do not think that most mammals can feel emotions in the same way that humans can, no. Maybe higher primates or porpoises, but no, not dogs or cats. They have a lot of similar behavior to humans so that's why people tend to get so attached to them and pin emotions onto animal behavior so that they have an easier time understanding it. This is my opinion backed by a scientific ideology. Higher mammals require a lot more in terms of mental stimulation, but it does ultimately serve a purpose towards one of it's basic needs.

I don't think it depends on "my" definition of happiness because happy IS an emotion. If you are claiming that an animal can be happy, then you are using a faulty definition or you are saying that they feel actual emotion.

But even so, reptiles have even LESS of a capacity for emotions. I also feel that "wanting" can be an emotion, so I don't think animals really "want" things, more that they are compelled towards it. A snake seeks out food when it's body is telling it to feed, a snake seeks out a mate when it's instincts tell it to mate. A snake cannot "want a vine to climb on". Why would it? Unless perhaps, the end of that vine held some food, or a mate, or shelter.

If it makes you feel better to pretend that your snake has emotions, then fine, make your snake "happy" by giving it the vine it "wants" to climb on. Just don't suggest that more realistic people are somehow treating their animals incorrectly or worse than you.

 

[Nanci]

But wait, is fear an emotion? What makes animals run away from danger?

 

[Candachan]

Distress is what makes an animal flee or be defensive against a threat, not "fear" as we feel fear.

 

[Michael823]

No one can say with certainty that snakes don't have emotions, or that they don't rationalize. They have impossible facial structures to assess. They don't have eyelids that blink, mouths that can smile or frown, or other features that certain creatures have that giveaway their emotions. That doesn't rule out that they still don't feel any emotions, though.

Anthropomorphism is seen as a bad thing, and to an extent it is, but people sometimes treat human emotions as the only scale to hold other creatures emotions up to, and that creatures lacking human emotions must not have any at all. What about a snake that's rearing up and ready to bite? To me, that must take some cognitive rationalization. There's an animal that must be assessing it's surroundings enough to hold off on biting until they know that they have no choice. An animal with no rationalization would strike at anything without hesitation, and all snakes would react the same way, in my opinion.

So, as it relates to this discussion, I see no reason to believe that it's impossible for a snake to "enjoy" extra vines, hides, or even space. It's really up to interpretation of what it means to be "happy".

Like I said before, I at least like to offer a little extra space, just in case a snake might prefer it, but I also agree that as long as husbandry needs are met, then I'm sure snakes will be perfectly content.

 

[Candachan]

I am basing this off of the fact that reptiles lack the center of the brain that creates and interprets emotions, it has NOTHING to do with their "expressions". We have determined from where in the brain emotions are stored, and reptiles do not possess it. They simply CANNOT have emotions. It is impossible.


A snake rearing to bite is responding to a stimuli. They are in distress and taking actions that they feel are appropriate to their survival, whether this means to strike or to flee. Each animal will react slightly different based on past experiences, current health, and small changes in the situation itself, but the majority of the time the animal will react with a fight or flight response. Animal behavior is very reliable and becomes even more reliable with a simpler animal.

 

[Lolo]

And truthfully....most of our snakes in pretty open vivs just go the same place the snakes in the racks go...in their hides. *shrugs*

That's pretty much how I see it... I've kept my snakes in both glass vivs and tubs (now only tubs/racks), and either way they spend 90-99% of their time in one cozy hide. So why bother giving them all the fancy stuff, when a secure hiding space is all they want? My baby corn has one small animal plastics hide, a yogurt cup hide (his favorite), and a water dish - nothing more. My adult corns have one hide and a water dish, and all of them seem perfectly content & healthy. The only snake in my collection with anything extra is the jungle carpet python, who has a small climbing branch since they're semi-arboreal.

 

[ceduke]

Regardless of how much snakes FEEL or not, it makes ME feel good to give them an enriching environment. If I'm doing nothing but satisfying my own instinct to anthropomorphize, so be it.

 

[Lolo]

Regardless of how much snakes FEEL or not, it makes ME feel good to give them an enriching environment. If I'm doing nothing but satisfying my own instinct to anthropomorphize, so be it.

Nothing wrong with that! I actually have a 20gal glass tank that I'm planning to use, whenever my JCP is large enough for it (he's still a baby). I will be tricking it out with vines, branches, rocks, etc., for both his AND my enjoyment... but mostly mine, LOL. I'm sure he would be fine in his tub forever, but it's neat to have one "display snake" in the house.

Regardless, as long as their needs are being met, I think only the human cares what kind of enclosure is used. I mostly prefer tubs/racks for the sake of cleaning, since it would be difficult to maintain 17 glass tanks. They seem happy enough, I'm happy with the ease of tubs, so it's a win-win situation at my household.

 

[Lolo]

Btw, I know this is a corn forum, so we're focusing on the needs of corn snakes... but as the owner of 11 pythons, I have to mention that they seem to prefer a tub enclosure. I've kept BPs in glass vivs, and most of them (especially babies and/or shy snakes) get stressed out with how open it is.

I had one who was a very spotty eater in the viv, and she became a consistent eater after moving into a tub. Since they can't talk to us, I take that as a sign she's much happier in the rack. I recently got a Boaphile black ballroom rack, which is REALLY good for the shy adults, since it's so dark... my shyest snake Nerissa seems much more calm since moving her into it.

 

[Carinata]

SO tonight I bought every snake thier prefered type of bedding (Aspen or cypress). I bought some vines and have begun enriching their homes. In a few weeks I will have everything done

 

[MegF.]

There's the rub. You say we've determined where emotional storage is in the brain. That would be OUR brain, not the brain of a reptile. How could you know where that is since you can't determine what emotion is to them? Their hearts aren't even the same as ours, yet you expect their brains to be. As for hiding...mine rarely spend time in their hides. You can come over most any time day or night and someone will be out and about. If you allow them the chance to act normally, they will. That is, if you stop overfeeding them so that they spend most of their time trying to empty their gut, they'll be out. Snakes in the wild do not spend all their time hiding. I find just as many out on the road..even during the day as I do under a piece of tin. You're assuming because your snakes spend all their time under the hide that it's a normal behavior. Time in the hide is normal for resting and digesting...but it shouldn't be where they spend all their time.