• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

The humanity of shoebox keeping?

There's no rub. There are countless studies evaluating different parts of the brain and what they control and how they developed. I'm not talking about just human brains, I'm talking about the study of all brains and the evolution of intelligence. It is not something that you can just make up your own opinion about if there is hard proof that snakes do not have the physical capability to feel emotions. I don't see why you are taking this so hard, it's not like suddenly snakes aren't worth keeping because they cannot love you or feel sadness or happiness.

Simple reptiles have amazingly simple brains, while things like Crocodilians and Komodo Dragons have larger, more complex brains. These animals have social structures and interact with each other with more awareness than a snake would.

But there's no use arguing with you if you want to pretend that your snakes have emotions. It's either based off of a spiritual belief or the fact that it makes you feel better to have a closer bond with your animals. Either way, not really my business. However, I'm not going to let people claim their snakes are happier than mine, any more than I'd listen to someone claim their dog is happier than another dog because they dress them up in little sweaters.

Thanks for assuming I overfeed my snakes, though. I feed them on a regular schedule (The Munson Plan, actually!) and they have various places they hide, but it's pretty predictable where they will be.

Oh, I just thought of a good place where you can stick your fake vines! It might not make your snakes happier, though. :(
 
ceduke said:
Regardless of how much snakes FEEL or not, it makes ME feel good to give them an enriching environment. If I'm doing nothing but satisfying my own instinct to anthropomorphize, so be it.
Click to expand...

This is my point exactly and is what I was implying. Nothing wrong with it, though.
 
Candachan said:
However, I'm not going to let people claim their snakes are happier than mine, any more than I'd listen to someone claim their dog is happier than another dog because they dress them up in little sweaters.
Click to expand...

I disagree. By that logic, a snake wouldn't care if it was kept in a viv so small it couldn't move, in a pile of it's own waste. I'm not going to argue if snakes can be "happy" or not, but I do believe basic comfort counts for something. and I know with FinFang's large viv, hides, and climbing structure he has more of that than his shoe-box counter parts.

The dog sweater analogy dosen't work either; it's a space/activity issue. I would claim my dog would be happier with a large outdoor run than someone who keeps their dog in a small concrete pen. But that hardly matters, since dog's aren't snakes by a long shot. Maybe your snakes are fine in their small boxes; I'll just continue to give any new animal I take in the best I can give them. Space, and structures they can use to express as many natural behaviors as they can.
 
I would have to say your logic viods because dogs are mammals and much more developed than snakes. But I still hate dogs ;)
 
I'm absolutely loving the people that assume my snakes are being stuffed full of mice and kept in tiny little tubs. If thinking that makes you feel better, go ahead. Pretend that I routinely open the tubs and give them the finger, too. My snakes have very low self-esteem. :(

"By that logic, a snake wouldn't care if it was kept in a viv so small it couldn't move, in a pile of it's own waste."

That's quite a stupid argument. That's not my logic at all, so I'm not sure where you are getting this idea. A snake in a very confined space with its own waste would not thrive, and would be very distressed. I'm really enjoying where you try to draw a parallel between my realistic views and animal abuse.
 
snakemaster24 said:
I would have to say your logic viods because dogs are mammals and much more developed than snakes. But I still hate dogs ;)
Click to expand...

I used this comparison since everyone else seems to equate reptiles with "higher" animals so I thought they might understand my analogy. Perhaps it was a weak comparison. I certainly do not think they are equal. That and I wanted to express my hate for dogs wearing little sweaters. ;)
 
Candachan said:
I'm absolutely loving the people that assume my snakes are being stuffed full of mice and kept in tiny little tubs. If thinking that makes you feel better, go ahead. Pretend that I routinely open the tubs and give them the finger, too. My snakes have very low self-esteem. :(

"By that logic, a snake wouldn't care if it was kept in a viv so small it couldn't move, in a pile of it's own waste."

That's quite a stupid argument. That's not my logic at all, so I'm not sure where you are getting this idea. A snake in a very confined space with its own waste would not thrive, and would be very distressed. I'm really enjoying where you try to draw a parallel between my realistic views and animal abuse.
Click to expand...

erm, no I was pointing out your error; saying it doesn't matter how you house a snake because they can't be "happy" is obviously wrong. There is a basic level of comfort, I don't think a snake would be "happy" living in a tiny viv, I think my snake is more "happy" (comfortable?) in a large viv with lots of stuff to climb on.
 
Oh my lord you guys are something else.

"We can't measure emotion in an animal with a fixed face! And no arms or legs "

Emotions are not measured by facial expression alone. Nice try, though. You guys really need to take a basic Biology class sometime. Emotions and facial expressions are linked, but they are not one and the same. It is possible to feel an emotion without expression, much as it is possible to express an emotion without feeling it. Emotions cause a MEASURABLE reaction in brain activity, salivation, persperation, heart rate, blood pressure, etc. This is a reaction. Again, like emotion/expression, it is possible to have reaction without emotion.

People get confused because they think reaction = emotion, therefore snakes have emotion. There is a difference in a human emotion compared to a primal reaction.

I never said it "doesn't matter how you house a snake" and you are either very dense or purposefully obtuse. Forgive me if it's the former.

Snakes have the most basic of needs: food, heat, shelter, water, and possibley a mate. Snakes do not need a very large amount of space to have this need met, and the proof is in the pudding. If a snake is eating, drinking, shedding, and growing normally then it has adequate space. Simple. If the space were too small, the animal would be distressed and wouldn't feed or grow at a proper rate, or would fall ill (as distress weakens the immune system).

You guys are honestly getting very confused due to your misplaced empathy.

You are taking my words and purposefully trying to make me look like an animal abuser that's telling everyone to put their adult corns in 15qt tubs.
 
Candachan said:
I'm absolutely loving the people that assume my snakes are being stuffed full of mice and kept in tiny little tubs. If thinking that makes you feel better, go ahead. Pretend that I routinely open the tubs and give them the finger, too. My snakes have very low self-esteem. :(
Click to expand...

No one was attacking you directly. No one said you don't look after your snakes. The argument is whether or not providing them with more is beneficial or if they "enjoy" that in anyway. I'm assuming you take great care of your snakes but what people are saying isn't against you, it's whether or not its worth putting more in the vivs. And people were only using poor conditions as an extreme examples. Everyone is going to use the extremes as an example.
 
I was accused of overfeeding my snakes and keeping them in "small boxes". Those are two direct attacks.
 
Candace no is jumping on ou. There is just a difference of opinion! Damn, who pissed in your wheaties.
 
To me, there will always be a difference between "surviving" and "thriving". Betas can survive in a glass of water, but come on. Why would you, when you can give them so much more? In the case of a snake, more space and branches. The proof is indeed in the pudding, and I'd believe your argument if FinFang (and my others others) never used the extra space or structures. But they do, constantly. And I woiuld feel bad if I ever took that away from them, and put them in a shoe box.

You want everyone else to admit they're wrong, when what it really comes down to is a matter of opinion. You think we are seeing our snakes as creatures who don't need the extras we give them (which may be true but they USE the extras I give them); I see you as someone who can't admit that maybe doing more for their pet might improve their lives. And no, I don't think they can be "happy" either. But there is some drive that tells them to move around and climb, I'd rather it be fulfilled.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v333/fifthevilbunny/finfangfoom/IMG_1900.png

It's an old photo, but he's still on that thing 50% of the time. He even rests on it sometimes.
 
"Candace no is jumping on ou"

False. I already pointed out two direct accusations to my snake husbandry.

"To me, there will always be a difference between "surviving" and "thriving". Betas can survive in a glass of water, but come on. "

Thriving is growing, if they are feeding and growing at a normal pace, then they are thriving. The minimum space requirements would allow for this (of course once a snake reaches a certain age it should stop growing and simply maintain it's size). Maybe you think I'm one of those people who think a snake will "grow to the size of it's home" which is a blatant falsehood. A space that restricts growth is too small, and I never EVER have recommended that. A betta in a glass of water is not thriving and therefore it does not meet the minimum requirements.

I never said it was wrong to give extra space or vines. I said it was for the benefit of the owner, because it makes them feel better to think they are doing "more" for their pet. I'm not trying to make anyone think they are wrong for giving their pet "more", but I will not let people accuse me of the same.

"I see you as someone who can't admit that maybe doing more for their pet might improve their lives"

And I see you as someone who thinks that doing the "minimum" for their pets is some horrible cruelty. You admit to feeling guilt at the thought of taking away those "extras" so I must assume that you look down on people who do not provide them to begin with. That sort of righteousness isn't something I accept lightly.

"You want everyone else to admit they're wrong, when what it really comes down to is a matter of opinion."

Whether a snake is capable of emotion is not an opinion at all when it can be proven. A snake cannot feel joy any more than a human can see gamma radiation. Simply physically impossible. Pinning emotions onto an animal to justify your actions is selfish and silly, but usually not harmful.
 
There is still a scientific argument about whether animals have emotions and whether they feel. They obviously feel pain and hunger... and those are relatively close to emotions. So what you're saying Candice is still an opinion, even in the scientific community.
 
Pain and hunger are not emotions and I don't think anyone in the scientific community would argue that they are.
 
Ok so I have 2 bloodreds. Both were 14g on Dec. 31. They are in 7 qt tubs with Aspen, a water dish, and a hide. Simple but decent. They both have gained at least 15g. In those conditions! How can you explain that?
 
I wouldn't say that animals feeling emotion is an fact... but a theory that has strong evidence... doesn't mean its 100% right. I think reactions are in response to things the animal "feels"
 
Well I've about wasted enough energy on this. Go ahead and have your "opinion" about snake emotions, just do not accuse me of somehow doing wrong by my animals because they don't have a silly plastic vine.

By the way, I read this thread to Scuba Steve (Potosi King) and he was pretty upset about it. :(

This is the last post of mine in this thread. Commence dressing your snakes in little hats and wallowing in how good of a snake owner you are. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top