Calls to boycott Arizona are spreading like a virus

[desertanimal]

I guess the one thing I really do not get is how (and why) are we supposed to take care of the rest of the world when we cannot even take care of our own problems at home? How many unemployed do we have in the US currently? How many homeless living on our streets (including our own veterans?). How many of our own disasters to take care of (flooding in TN right now, the oil rig spill we are trying to clean up etc...)? How many women and children living in shelters due to domestic violence right here in the US? And yet we are supposed to keep on giving to everyone else? Why don't we focus on our own people and our own problems first? Why does no other country lend us a helping hand in solving these problems yet expect us to take in all of their illegal immigrants like it is no big deal?
I am sorry - I don't care what people think of me for saying this either - I am sick of it. I am sick of people looking for handouts, sick of people expecting that they can just come here illegally and reap all the great things about this country when we have our hands full with our own problems already without this adding more to it. Sick of people expecting we are just going to keep bending over and taking it because we are the USA and we are supposed to support everyone for everything all the damn time.

I am not saying that I don't feel sorry for people living in some backwards third world country that has problems even worse than ours as noted by Stephanie - of course I feel for them. But that doesn't make it my problem. I have my own problems to deal with - no - maybe not as severe - but in MY life they are MY problems and I have to sort those out before I could even consider helping out someone in a foreign country. And I know there are a lot of people out there who feel the same. I see the same sentiments posted on message boards all over the internet by all types of people here in the US - all ages, both sexes, all races etc....

Edit to add - as a sidenote - this is why I usually try to stay out of these kinds of threads. I get too worked up about anything even slightly related to politics.

I respect that position. And even better, there's nothing in it that begs correction, so there's nothing to argue. :cheers:

While I'm not arguing with you, I do think it's worth considering how our government-subsidized corn crops and subsequent free trade policies have devastated the economies of a few neighbors in the New World. It's worth considering that some of the economic problems faced by the people flooding our borders were and continue to be partly caused by us. It's worth considering how the way the colonial governments of Africa treated different ethnic groups and then left without any effort to help repair the problems they exacerbated during their stay has contributed to the current horrific state of affairs in some regions. But everyone has to draw a line where he or she thinks the fixing and the helping should stop. Everyone has to draw a line for when to say, "Well, sorry. We exacerbated/are perpetuating a mess, but you're on your own to get out of it." And where that line for each person is is a philosophical choice. The world goes on, the strong take from the weak, over and over since the beginning of time. The question becomes, do you want to stop that cycle? Do you think we can? Are you willing to make any sacrifices to try? And that is a philosophical choice. Although it could be a pragmatic one, too. We're "on top" now, but I doubt we'll be forever . . .

 

[jpccusa]

I guess the one thing I really do not get is how (and why) are we supposed to take care of the rest of the world when we cannot even take care of our own problems at home? How many unemployed do we have in the US currently?

Due to the economy and not illegal immigration

How many homeless living on our streets (including our own veterans?).

A lot, but is very rare to see a homeless illegal immigrant because usually they come here to work, and not to ask for free money. They also have great support of their family and community, something not frequently seen in the American culture.

How many of our own disasters to take care of (flooding in TN right now, the oil rig spill we are trying to clean up etc...)?How many women and children living in shelters due to domestic violence right here in the US?

I agree, we have many problems of our own.

And yet we are supposed to keep on giving to everyone else?

Who are we giving "it" to (unsure what "it" means)?

Why don't we focus on our own people and our own problems first?

Why not let illegal immigrants already here (after going through the process) to help instead of increasing the problem?

Why does no other country lend us a helping hand in solving these problems yet expect us to take in all of their illegal immigrants like it is no big deal?

Because we are one of the richest countries in the world, while being seen as snobs by many other countries.

I am sorry - I don't care what people think of me for saying this either - I am sick of it. I am sick of people looking for handouts, sick of people expecting that they can just come here illegally and reap all the great things about this country when we have our hands full with our own problems already without this adding more to it. Sick of people expecting we are just going to keep bending over and taking it because we are the USA and we are supposed to support everyone for everything all the damn time.

I don't judge, as you are entitled to your opinion.

I am not saying that I don't feel sorry for people living in some backwards third world country that has problems even worse than ours as noted by Stephanie - of course I feel for them. But that doesn't make it my problem. I have my own problems to deal with - no - maybe not as severe - but in MY life they are MY problems and I have to sort those out before I could even consider helping out someone in a foreign country. And I know there are a lot of people out there who feel the same. I see the same sentiments posted on message boards all over the internet by all types of people here in the US - all ages, both sexes, all races etc....

Edit to add - as a sidenote - this is why I usually try to stay out of these kinds of threads. I get too worked up about anything even slightly related to politics.

I think the main problem with this topic is due to a lot of misconceptions. The idea of illegal immigrants being "takers" and the idea of it "making unemployment rates higher" and "sinking the economy" and all the other bad things you hear in the media, they are not necessarily true. Politicians and media use scare tactics a lot. Also, xenophobic groups such as FAIR and others put out reports which main goal is to increase ethnic separatism.

Perhaps if we stopped thinking of illegal immigrants less as people who are here as bad people looking for a free ride and more as people who are here to live a hard working life while making the US a better country, attitudes would change.

 

[jpccusa]

If me and someone else also here legally applies for the some job and I don't get the job then that is just my tough luck, but if I am willing to work a job for minimum wage and an illegal is willing to do it for 5 an hour and the illegal gets the job, well that is just not ok, and that is what is happening right now. When an illegal takes an underpaid job, they are not preventing a legal person from having that job, they are also pulling the pay scale down for everyone. Business who utilize the cheaper labor are able to do business more cheaply and they put other law abiding businesses out of business. It is a burden to people who want to work and can't find a job and it is burden to companies that want to do business legally and cannot compete because the other companies are getting dirt cheap illegal labor.

No, to get paid $5 would mean to be paid under the table/out of payroll. So unless you are saying most of the jobs you are applying to are hiring people under the table, the only reasons you are not being hired are because the employer think the illegal immigrants are more qualified or because the illegal immigrants are willing to work for a minimum wage and you are not (and yes, working for minimum wage would indeed pull the pay scale down, but not lower than the minimum wage).

 

[Dinah]

So are you saying you'd rather employ even the super inefficient American workers over super efficient illegal immigrants. If not, where do you draw the line as to determine who is "qualified hard working" and who is not? Why not let markets decide for themselves to hire the best available (job competition) by allowing illegal immigrants to become legal immigrants hence boosting the economy out of the recession and therefore decreasing the unemployment rate?


I quote my previous post:

"Yes, so let's start enforcing tougher laws on illegal immigrants since that will not scream "xenophobia" to the rest of the world!" :nope:

I am not saying it would be difficult to enforce them... I am saying it would be impossible by reasons previously discussed.

Besides, illegal immigrants don't go to jail for being here illegally. They go to immigration detention centers. You are also implying I am advocating about letting all illegal immigrants (currently detained or not) to be freed, when I never said that.

I am saying I would rather we hired law abiding people and not criminals. If these illegal aliens are super efficient then they should perhaps use some of their efficiency to fill out the paper work and go through the process, then they could efficiently get here legally. And I fail to see how adding more people to the already over saturated work force is going decrease unemployment. I mean how does that logic work exactly. Hmm we do not have enough jobs in the US, oh I know lets add more workers!?!?!? I don't see how that will lower unemployment at all.

To be clear I did not say enforce tougher laws/penalties on the illegal immigrants, I said enforce tougher laws and penalties on everyone. You can make it seem like I am just against foreigners, but that is just not true. I am against criminals, whether they are foreign or domestic.

If you think it is impossible fine, get out of the way and let the can do people get things done.

I was saying that if it is inhumane to force these people to go back to supposedly dangerous countries with potentially scary cultures, leaving their homes, friends, and jobs behind, then how do you feel about what we do to our other criminals...the ones that we incarcerate you know the ones that are living here legally? I mean they are being forced to leave their jobs, friends, homes, lives, culture, etc and they are being forced to live somewhere that is potentially unsafe to them. Somehow it is ok to do those things to our actual citizens who commit crimes. But if we were to force the illegal immigrants to endure a change in culture and a move to a potentially unsafe environment that is inhumane. Why are the illegal immigrant criminals above the law, but the regular criminals not?

 

[Dinah]

No, to get paid $5 would mean to be paid under the table/out of payroll. So unless you are saying most of the jobs you are applying to are hiring people under the table, the only reasons you are not being hired are because the employer think the illegal immigrants are more qualified or because the illegal immigrants are willing to work for a minimum wage and you are not (and yes, working for minimum wage would indeed pull the pay scale down, but not lower than the minimum wage).

Yes I am saying it is common practice at least here in FL to hire illegal immigrants under the table. It happens all the time here in a HUGE variety of fields and it is frustrating to everyone.

 

[jpccusa]

Yes I am saying it is common practice at least here in FL to hire illegal immigrants under the table. It happens all the time here in a HUGE variety of fields and it is frustrating to everyone.

Perhaps we should deport unscrupulous employers. :idea:

(joke)

 

[Dinah]

I do any time I find out about it happening. But it really is a rampant problem here

 

[susang]

I was saying that if it is inhumane to force these people to go back to supposedly dangerous countries with potentially scary cultures, leaving their homes, friends, and jobs behind, then how do you feel about what we do to our other criminals...the ones that we incarcerate you know the ones that are living here legally? I mean they are being forced to leave their jobs, friends, homes, lives, culture, etc and they are being forced to live somewhere that is potentially unsafe to them. Somehow it is ok to do those things to our actual citizens who commit crimes. But if we were to force the illegal immigrants to endure a change in culture and a move to a potentially unsafe environment that is inhumane. Why are the illegal immigrant criminals above the law, but the regular criminals not?

I would belive you heard of the attempted car bombing inTimes Square over te weekend. The accused is a nationalized citizen who is now protected by the Constitution, had he been undocumented he could be questioned as a terrorist. Instead he will sit in jail keeping his mouth shut and lawyering up. Which is his right, but I'm sure their are those who would like to ask him questions and get answers.
Please also don't think because you are an educated professional, undocumented people are not. Some have gone to school and even college and some are stay at home Moms who bake an home school. Again I will say many of undocumented do the jobs they do because many people won't work for min. wage or less.
I live in a community that is probably 85% caucasion, with a very high unemployment rate. It has been that way for years because, we did thrive on lumber and mills. I refuse to believe if someone really wants a job and is willing to work for min. wage and or less then they made at previous job they won't find one.
My point in this is again no matter how undocumented PEOPLE are treated no one will be happy.

 

[Dinah]

Sorry I can't edit that was supposed to say I do report them

 

[Dinah]

Please also don't think because you are an educated professional, undocumented people are not. Some have gone to school and even college and some are stay at home Moms who bake an home school. Again I will say many of undocumented do the jobs they do because many people won't work for min. wage or less.
I live in a community that is probably 85% caucasion, with a very high unemployment rate. It has been that way for years because, we did thrive on lumber and mills. I refuse to believe if someone really wants a job and is willing to work for min. wage and or less then they made at previous job they won't find one.
My point in this is again no matter how undocumented PEOPLE are treated no one will be happy.

I don;t think they are uneducated....I think they are criminals. Not like robbers but they broke the law to be here so they are criminals, no matter how educated they are.

You can refuse to believe that someone couldn't find a minimum wage job, but in 6 months of applying daily to multiple places do you know how many jobs I was offered ZERO.

 

[susang]

Yes I am saying it is common practice at least here in FL to hire illegal immigrants under the table. It happens all the time here in a HUGE variety of fields and it is frustrating to everyone.

Would you bend over a field picking strawberries for $7.25 an hour, no benefits?

 

[Dinah]

Absolutely! Not strawberries because at the time they were out of season but my husband and I both tried to get more than one field job.

 

[jpccusa]

I am saying I would rather we hired law abiding people and not criminals. If these illegal aliens are super efficient then they should perhaps use some of their efficiency to fill out the paper work and go through the process, then they could efficiently get here legally. And I fail to see how adding more people to the already over saturated work force is going decrease unemployment. I mean how does that logic work exactly. Hmm we do not have enough jobs in the US, oh I know lets add more workers!?!?!? I don't see how that will lower unemployment at all.

I suggest a macroeconomics class, with all due respect. It really helped me to understand the complex dynamics of our economy better.

To be clear I did not say enforce tougher laws/penalties on the illegal immigrants, I said enforce tougher laws and penalties on everyone. You can make it seem like I am just against foreigners, but that is just not true. I am against criminals, whether they are foreign or domestic.

I am sorry if I made it seem like you are against foreigners. That was not what I meant. What I mean is that to start enforcing tougher laws, on everyone but specially on illegal immigrants as in AZ, would send the wrong message about Americans (not only you) across the globe.

If you think it is impossible fine, get out of the way and let the can do people get things done.

I am afraid the "can do people" would be making a big mistake, so with all due respect, I couldn't possibly get out of the way.

I was saying that if it is inhumane to force these people to go back to supposedly dangerous countries with potentially scary cultures, leaving their homes, friends, and jobs behind, then how do you feel about what we do to our other criminals...the ones that we incarcerate you know the ones that are living here legally? I mean they are being forced to leave their jobs, friends, homes, lives, culture, etc and they are being forced to live somewhere that is potentially unsafe to them. Somehow it is ok to do those things to our actual citizens who commit crimes. But if we were to force the illegal immigrants to endure a change in culture and a move to a potentially unsafe environment that is inhumane. Why are the illegal immigrant criminals above the law, but the regular criminals not?

I already addressed the issue about illegal immigrants not being criminals enough, but let me say this, they were never judged by a criminal judge and found to be guilty.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

Due to the economy and not illegal immigration

I never said it was - but illegal immigration is certainly not making anything better. I have never heard anyone say that illegal immigration is wonderful for our country. Or a benefit for our country. If it was - the borders would be wide open - no fences, no checkpoints, no border control - nothing.
And as I have said before - I have no problem with people who want to immigrate to this country - as long as they do it legally. If they want to come here and make a better life for themself - more power to them. This country was based on freedoms such as those, my only issue is that they do it through LEGAL channels.

I was reading a message board today about how South American countries are up in arms over this law. But in response one poster noted that he has traveled extensively through central and south america - and guess what - EVERYWHERE you go down there you have to show your PAPERS!!!! Airports, bus stations, coming in and out of certain cities let alone crossing any country lines. Green card or VISA or Passport or whatever documentation showing that you are there LEGALLY! And if you don't have it - YOU GO TO JAIL!!!! So why is it such a huge deal for the USA to do the same thing?!?!?!?! Why is it ok for OTHER countries to enforce their laws, but not the US???
I work as a travel agent - I have to constantly remind people traveling internationally to have the correct documenation with them at all times. And you know what - in a lot of these countries - it isn't just a cop or border control - it is the MILITARY who are checking your papers and arresting you if you don't have them. The US is much more lenient considering if the shoe were on the other foot and it was one of us in a foreign country without our paperwork....

 

[susang]

You can refuse to believe that someone couldn't find a minimum wage job, but in 6 months of applying daily to multiple places do you know how many jobs I was offered ZERO.

I can and do; my sister with a high school education was laid off. She is an insurance agent the office she worked for closed. By the time the office closed she had been offered jobs with four insurance companies and two retail companies. She went out every day and went to one retail company every day until they hired her. My grand-daughter who is 18 got a job with no previous experience; in a home improvement store and it took her 2 weeks. As I stated I live in the Pacific Northwest, very high unemployment. so boohoo for you

 

[jpccusa]

Absolutely! Not strawberries because at the time they were out of season but my husband and I both tried to get more than one field job.

I wonder if you thought about relocating to an area with less illegal immigrants (but since you wouldn't know for sure where they are, you would have to pick an area where mostly Caucasians live) or lower unemployment rate.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I can and do; my sister with a high school education was laid off. She is an insurance agent the office she worked for closed. By the time the office closed she had been offered jobs with four insurance companies and two retail companies. She went out every day and went to one retail company every day until they hired her. My grand-daughter who is 18 got a job with no previous experience; in a home improvement store and it took her 2 weeks. As I stated I live in the Pacific Northwest, very high unemployment. so boohoo for you

I have family in Ohio - my aunt and uncle - who have both been unemployed for a year. My aunt is a teacher....I have read frequently of a shortage of teachers in the US - so how is it that she is still unemployed? She is highly educated, has been applying for positions nonstop since she lost her job and still nothing.

I also have another friend who has been unemployed for a year and a half now. He has applied for everything under the sun and is constantly told he is either overqualified or does not have enough experience. He has been in management for years, has a college degree etc.... I have seen him apply for jobs day in and day out. Online, in person etc...
So BS back - you know two lucky people - I know a lot more people in much more unlucky circumstances.
My brother was unemployed for a year having previously been a bank manager. My stepsister is currently unemployed.
These are all people with high levels of education, good, honest, hardworking people. A lot of whom would take minimum wage jobs but were told time and time again that they were OVER QUALIFIED. You know what that means? The company didn't want to PAY them a salary that they should be entitled to for the position applied for with their skills. Better to hire a cheap, illegal immigrant or someone with little to no experience (meaning someone who is going to possibly screw up a lot more than someone who does have experience) and pay less money for their salaries.

 

[Outcast]

I wonder if you thought about relocating to an area with less illegal immigrants (but since you wouldn't know for sure where they are, you would have to pick an area where mostly Caucasians live) or lower unemployment rate.

:laugh01:
That's funny, asking someone if they thought of moving somewhere where there isn't illegals. Doesn't that open up even more space for the illegals to occupy? Why not give them our whole country? Then we can all move to another country illegally and see what a burden we become to them? I vote China. I would like to go herping there...

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I wonder if you thought about relocating to an area with less illegal immigrants (but since you wouldn't know for sure where they are, you would have to pick an area where mostly Caucasians live) or lower unemployment rate.

And how exactly are people going to afford to relocate if they don't have a job?? Maybe if there weren't so many illegal immigrants Dinah and her husband could have got a job in the fields to make ends meet until they could find something better.

 

[jpccusa]

I have never heard anyone say that illegal immigration is wonderful for our country. Or a benefit for our country. If it was - the borders would be wide open - no fences, no checkpoints, no border control - nothing.

I have heard that if we legalize all of the illegals currently here, there would be a boost in the economy. I can show proof later.

And yes, I am not advocating open borders, I am advocating an immigration reform that contains a way for illegals to become citizens.

And as I have said before - I have no problem with people who want to immigrate to this country - as long as they do it legally. If they want to come here and make a better life for themself - more power to them. This country was based on freedoms such as those, my only issue is that they do it through LEGAL channels.

That's great, but we still have to think about the 11+ already here. Then, after we solved that problem, we can do what you are saying.