Calls to boycott Arizona are spreading like a virus

[diamondlil]

And we are back to square 1. :awcrap:

It is unpractical to be done, unsafe for the economy, and inhumane for those already here, in my opinion.



So are many of the illegal immigrants (just making sure Wade's post doesn't go unnoticed. I just couldn't pass that up).

Why is it inhumane to expect people to respect the law or face the consequences? I don't care how educated, nice or professional a crook is, they are still breaking the law

 

[Dinah]

But neither myself nor my husband are criminals and the very act of entering the country illegally makes them nice, educated, professional people who are also criminals. Plenty of people here legally would love to get off unemployment and find a job. Plenty of people who are here legally will take those jobs, they need those jobs. I know because it was just last year when I was in a situation where I needed a job, and the people in the US legally are the ones who should be getting jobs. If you get something by breaking the law it shouldn't be a surprise that when you are caught your ill got thing will be taken away. If you rob a bank and get caught the bank wants its money back, if you enter a country illegally it is fair to assume that if you get caught you will be sent back. The idea that they will be sent back if caught should not come as a surprise to them, and it was a risk they choose to take.

So to be clear maybe when I worded my post I was less than clear, I am not saying that illegal immigrants are not nice people or professional and educated I am just saying that nice, educated, hardworking, professional people who are not criminals are getting passed over for jobs and a bunch of criminals are being hired instead.

Now if you want to talk about something inhumane, then lets talk about telling non criminals sorry no job for you we need to make sure we are taking care of and keeping all of these other workers in their positions. People who legally speaking aren't even supposed to be here in the first place. How does that make sense? How is that fair and humane to the people who are supposed to be here? The people who did not choose to break any laws.

I am not even going to pretend that I am some sort of expert regarding the logistics of deportation and all of the issues that surround it, but our country is facing some really serious employment challenges and I cannot see how it is considered an option to tell the unemployed American's tough these people who are here illegally are the ones we are concerned about, we don't want to upset their lawbreaking employers by deporting them, and we wouldn't want them to have to face the consequences of illegal immigration (deportation) because that would be to inhumane to them. So all of you lawfully here unemployed American's will just have to do without a job, that way we don't as a country have to feel guilty about being mean and inconveniencing criminals and the criminals who hire them illegally.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

I just don't understand why we are supposed to protect and coddle people who are here illegally? Seriously - what part of ILLEGAL do we not understand here? In the end - that is what it boils down to. We can moan about taxes and jobs and everything else - but ultimately it is just the fact that they are here illegally. If they were here legally - all of this would be a moot point. I don't care how many foreigners come in to our country legally to take advantage of what the USA offers - like I stated earlier - I don't blame them for wanting to come here. We have a lot more available to people than a lot of their home countries - just do it legally and there won't be a problem. So it takes time and it takes money - then that is what they need to do. It wasn't like my great-grandparents were rich when they immigrated from Germany - but they did it the right way. They saved their money, they waited for their papers and then they came to the US legally. People still do it today too.

 

[jpccusa]

Why is it inhumane to expect people to respect the law or face the consequences?

I should have expanded on that... When I say inhumane I am thinking of all the kids born here (American citizens) out of illegal immigrant parents. I am also thinking about illegal immigrant kids, brought here by illegal immigrant parents.
And I am also thinking about people who got a good job, went to school, and worked to get a better life while illegally here.

The most important, I am thinking of people (all of the mentioned above) who have been here most of their lives... 10, 20, 25 years...

I get it, they broke the law, but there are humane ways of paying for your "crime." Deportation seems too harsh on those cases, in my opinion. Heck, rich people break the law all the time and they pay bail to get out. Why not extend that option to illegal immigrants as some immigrant reform bills have proposed in the past, what they called "fines?"

 

[kathylove]

I always thought that maybe a good prerequisite for a green card...

would be a mandatory "public service" time doing whatever is needed for a year or two, or whatever is deemed appropriate. Maybe work a couple of years in Habitat for Humanity or some inner city hospitals or something similar. Maybe live in a barracks similar to the old military style, with just a small stipend for food, etc. Something that would be very doable, and helpful for society, but not TOO easy. The idea would be to sift out the "givers" from the "takers" - keep those who are really committed to becoming productive members of society, and reward them with the opportunity for a better life for themselves and their families. That would be a legal way for people to immigrate, even if they don't have family connections here, or a highly educated background. Right now, it is almost impossible to get here legally without some kind of family or job connection, and even then, can be almost impossible in a reasonable amount of time (I know, because I helped my brother get his Russian wife here - and her daughter is STILL in Russia 11 years later - not from lack of trying). Hard work and commitment should be rewarded, too.

 

[jazzgeek]

"Don't blame it all on Arizona. The Grand Canyon State simply happened to be in the right place at the right time to tilt over to the dark side. Its hysteria is but another symptom of a political virus that can’t be quarantined and whose cure is as yet unknown."

Interesting (and yes, slanted - that's why it's an....) Op/Ed piece by Frank Rich....


Dale

 

[jazzgeek]

I always thought that maybe a good prerequisite for a green card would be a mandatory "public service" time doing whatever is needed for a year or two, or whatever is deemed appropriate. Maybe work a couple of years in Habitat for Humanity or some inner city hospitals or something similar. Maybe live in a barracks similar to the old military style, with just a small stipend for food, etc. Something that would be very doable, and helpful for society, but not TOO easy. The idea would be to sift out the "givers" from the "takers" - keep those who are really committed to becoming productive members of society, and reward them with the opportunity for a better life for themselves and their families.

As someone who has openly and publicly ascribed to Libertarianism as you have, this surprises me. It sounds no different than the Japanese internment camps of WWII, or worse, the "re-education" camp that many conspiracy theorists have claimed that BHO would employ once he took office.

Dale

 

[Dinah]

jp....Inhumane seems like such a dramatic way to put it. Yes it is obviously a punishment, and yes it is obviously not what the person would like, but inhumane? Inhumane is water boarding someone...inhumane is pulling their finger and toe nails out with pliers, inhumane is not feeding them, locking them up or sentencing them without a trial, treating them like animals, beating them, those things are inhumane. Inhumane is sending people to places like Auschiwitz, not sending people to places like Mexico, China, Canada, or which ever other country they are from.

 

[Daenerys]

Inhumane is water boarding someone...

....I'm sorry, this one just cracks me up.

 

[tsst]

I should have expanded on that... When I say inhumane I am thinking of all the kids born here (American citizens) out of illegal immigrant parents. I am also thinking about illegal immigrant kids, brought here by illegal immigrant parents.

This is a loophole that should never have been left open. If the parents were not here legally then the children should not have been granted automatic citizenship. JMO And it brings up another note. In this country if I use my kids or force my kids to commit a crime they will be taken from me by social services. Should this happen to these kids? Should social services take the kids from the parents for at the very least child endangerment?

And I am also thinking about people who got a good job, went to school, and worked to get a better life while illegally here.

The most important, I am thinking of people (all of the mentioned above) who have been here most of their lives... 10, 20, 25 years...

Bad logic. If I commit a crime and don't get caught for 10 years and I get an education and good job, I should be forgiven the original crime because it would be inhumane to impose the punishment for that crime after I have lived my new life for 10 years?

I get it, they broke the law, but there are humane ways of paying for your "crime." Deportation seems too harsh on those cases, in my opinion. Heck, rich people break the law all the time and they pay bail to get out. Why not extend that option to illegal immigrants as some immigrant reform bills have proposed in the past, what they called "fines?"

Not sure I understand how transporting them back to 'their own country' is inhumane unless you are implying they were being persecuted there or the like? But that would not seem the case because many return regularly.

And if they can't pay the fines for each member that crossed illegally do they go to jail or get deported? And what should the fine be for breaking federal law as their first act in this country?

"Don't blame it all on Arizona. ... Interesting (and yes, slanted - that's why it's an....) Op/Ed piece by Frank Rich....


Dale

No surprise there. A staunch leftist, writing for a leftwing media source, complaining about the right. Both of the two major parties play this same game just spun in different ways. :shrugs: I did like this quote though because it was a true bipartisan statement. :grin01:

He is far from alone in cowering before his party’s extremists.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Not sure I understand how transporting them back to 'their own country' is inhumane unless you are implying they were being persecuted there or the like?

But many were being persecuted. The political climates in places like El Salvador (2nd on the list of # of illegals here after Mexicans) is horrible and unimagineable to someone who has grown up safe in the United States their whole life. Guatemala (#3 on that list after Mexico and El Salvador) where I grew up, had many years of unrest and things like whole towns being massacred. Horrible right wing death squads. I saw a lot of this stuff FIRST HAND growing up. Things have improved now politically but there is still a lot of crime, gangs, things that make it a dangerous place to live. Imagine people arround you being "disappeared" for their political beliefs, showing up dead and horribly mutilated and tortured. Not once but again and again, everyone you know. Imagine fearing for your safety and that of your family. You would do the same thing and flee for your life to another country where you could be safe. Breaking an immigration law is preferable to losing your life.
I hate the "just ship them all back home" mentality, it is a mistaken "one size fits all" solution

 

[wade]

I think the government has provisions for people seeking political asylum and who have a reason to fear going back home. Nobody would condone sending anyone back to executed.

 

[Dinah]

I was going to say what Wade said about Asylum, but also I would like to address that I do not have a ship all the foreigners back attitude. After all we were all foreigners at one point, but crimes are crimes. People who commit crimes are criminals, and we don not need to just open the gates and tell all these foreign criminals "Welcome". I am happy to have people from other cultures/countries/races here, provided they are law abiding citizens. I am pro changing our laws and things to make sure that people who wish to come here or need to come here can do so legally, but if someone chooses to start their relationship with their new country by entering it in a criminal fashion, then said person should not be suprised that they will be treated the criminal they just became. If you start your time in a country by breaking its laws, then why should the country do anything for you?...Your very first act was criminal and a complete disregard for the law and order of your 'new' country.

 

[tsst]

But many were being persecuted. The political climates in places like El Salvador (2nd on the list of # of illegals here after Mexicans) is horrible and unimagineable to someone who has grown up safe in the United States their whole life. Guatemala (#3 on that list after Mexico and El Salvador) where I grew up, had many years of unrest and things like whole towns being massacred. Horrible right wing death squads. I saw a lot of this stuff FIRST HAND growing up. Things have improved now politically but there is still a lot of crime, gangs, things that make it a dangerous place to live. Imagine people arround you being "disappeared" for their political beliefs, showing up dead and horribly mutilated and tortured. Not once but again and again, everyone you know. Imagine fearing for your safety and that of your family. You would do the same thing and flee for your life to another country where you could be safe. Breaking an immigration law is preferable to losing your life.
I hate the "just ship them all back home" mentality, it is a mistaken "one size fits all" solution

That would be inhumane but like Wade stated above there are avenues for just that. Of which breaking the federal laws of another nation is not an acceptable one. I too don't condone a one size fits all agenda. For too long we have been rewarding criminals with all that we have to offer here when we should be reserving those rewards for those that immigrate legally.

One would think that if it is so horrible they would have little use for homeland patriotism, frequent revisits back, and lack of desire to assimilate. :shrugs:

 

[kathylove]

As someone who has openly and publicly ascribed to Libertarianism as you have, this surprises me. It sounds no different than the Japanese internment camps of WWII, or worse, the "re-education" camp that many conspiracy theorists have claimed that BHO would employ once he took office.

I'm sorry - I must have explained my idea very poorly. What I meant is a COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY service period, more similar to the old VISTA program (Volunteers in Service to America - not sure if it is still around or not - it was kind of a domestic peace corp service. I believe there was a time during the draft that it - or something like it - was suggested as an alternate to military service for draftees who didn't want to go into the military). Or maybe it could even include military service. What I was trying to suggest is a way to obtain a green card for prospective immigrants who want to come legally, but currently have no way to qualify because they don't have the needed job skill or relatives living here. As it is now, it is pretty much impossible without those connections, unless you live in a country that is allowed to participate in the green card lottery, and you are lucky enough to win.

The WWII internment camps were in no way voluntary, and included US citizens in their roundup. AFAIK, they were just holding places, and in no way improved this country through service or anything else. What I am suggesting is a completely voluntary service period that would provide NEEDED SERVICES to our citizens, while allowing prospective immigrants a chance to show their commitment to becoming valued members of this society. They could also use the service period to perfect English skills, if needed. I don't know if the military would want to sign up prospective immigrants before they had a green card (currently, they do not accept non green card, non citizen immigrants), but this idea would just be an alternative to military service.

I would not want to see ANY parallels between this idea and the WWII camps!! But I would like to see a legal (but not necessarily easy) way for hard working, committed people to get here legally, whether or not they happen to have close relatives already here as legal residents / citizens. My Russian niece probably would have jumped at the chance to spend a couple of years in service here in exchange for her green card. She DOES have relatives here, and is a doctor - and is STILL waiting for permission to come after all of these years. An opportunity to work for a small stipend in some inner city hospital for a couple of years, and then receive a green card, would have been a great choice for her. I don't think she would have viewed it anything like the WWII camps.

Hope that explains it better.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Checking more ID's and increasing the deportation of the ones already here illegally, I think this is costly and is kind of like trying to stop a bleeding artery with a band aid. I think any solution that involves getting them out (deportation) and keeping them out (like the proposals to build walls and such) costs money and ultimately doesn't work.
I do like Kathy's idea. I would just like to see a solution that really works. I could see something like having them pay an extra tax to work here or something that would put money into our economy instead of costing money and not working.

 

[tsst]

Maybe a combination of deterrents to illegal immigration would help. Nothing will stop it all together. Once the free flood gates were opened and there was no cost involved in breaking a US federal law, sure why not just hop-scotch across the border. The threat of deportation combined with making it near impossible to get the coveted job here or any social services may have more of an affect. Punish those hiring illegals, housing illegals, supporting illegals, do not provide education, welfare, routine healthcare, etc. If a hotel thought they could lose their license to operate for hiring illegals maybe they wouldn't. If a landscaper thought he could lose his business license for hiring illegals maybe he wouldn't. etc.

Just reiterating I think we need some form of reform. But it should NOT include amnesty for criminals. We already reward/excuse crime too much in this country. IMO

A bandaid on an artery may not stop the bleeding but it has to be better than dousing it with an anticoagulant.

 

[jpccusa]

jp....Inhumane seems like such a dramatic way to put it. Yes it is obviously a punishment, and yes it is obviously not what the person would like, but inhumane? Inhumane is water boarding someone...inhumane is pulling their finger and toe nails out with pliers, inhumane is not feeding them, locking them up or sentencing them without a trial, treating them like animals, beating them, those things are inhumane. Inhumane is sending people to places like Auschiwitz, not sending people to places like Mexico, China, Canada, or which ever other country they are from.

I consider that torture (a crime), and yes, torture is inhumane AS WELL.

This is a loophole that should never have been left open. If the parents were not here legally then the children should not have been granted automatic citizenship.

Well, but it was left open so now we have to deal with it.

Bad logic. If I commit a crime and don't get caught for 10 years and I get an education and good job, I should be forgiven the original crime because it would be inhumane to impose the punishment for that crime after I have lived my new life for 10 years?

In your opinion is bad logic, perhaps because you are assuming I am talking about amnesty (grant people citizenship for free). What I am advocating is a better way of allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens AFTER THEY PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES. We would not be forgiving the original crime.

Not sure I understand how transporting them back to 'their own country' is inhumane unless you are implying they were being persecuted there or the like? But that would not seem the case because many return regularly.

It would be inhumane to send someone "back" to an unfamiliar culture/place (taking into consideration I said many illegal immigrants have spent the majority of their lives here).

And if they can't pay the fines for each member that crossed illegally do they go to jail or get deported? And what should the fine be for breaking federal law as their first act in this country?

As what would happen if they can't pay, I don't have an answer for you, but I am pretty sure we would see great acts of solidarity popping up, from churches, to fundraisers, etc.

As for what should the fine be, I like Kathy's proposal.

PS: Not all illegal immigrants broke the federal law, as I previously explained.

I think the government has provisions for people seeking political asylum and who have a reason to fear going back home. Nobody would condone sending anyone back to executed.

Indeed, although the government is really strict when deciding who gets asylum. You have to apply for it within a few months after in the US, and you have to prove your life would be in danger if you go back, something that sometimes is really hard to do.

I was going to say what Wade said about Asylum, but also I would like to address that I do not have a ship all the foreigners back attitude. After all we were all foreigners at one point, but crimes are crimes. People who commit crimes are criminals, and we don not need to just open the gates and tell all these foreign criminals "Welcome". I am happy to have people from other cultures/countries/races here, provided they are law abiding citizens. I am pro changing our laws and things to make sure that people who wish to come here or need to come here can do so legally, but if someone chooses to start their relationship with their new country by entering it in a criminal fashion, then said person should not be suprised that they will be treated the criminal they just became. If you start your time in a country by breaking its laws, then why should the country do anything for you?...Your very first act was criminal and a complete disregard for the law and order of your 'new' country.

So you are in favor of legal immigration, as almost everyone in the country, except neo-nazis and a few other hate groups. What you haven't addressed is what to do with 11 million illegal immigrants. Do you have "a ship all the illegal foreigners back attitude?"

PS: Read PS for Tsst

More about immigration here

 

[Dinah]

I consider that torture (a crime), and yes, torture is inhumane AS WELL.



So you are in favor of legal immigration, as almost everyone in the country, except neo-nazis and a few other hate groups. What you haven't addressed is what to do with 11 million illegal immigrants. Do you have "a ship all the illegal foreigners back attitude?"

So torture and Auschiwitz are the same to you as sending people who are legally Mexicans, Canadians, etc back to Mexico and Canada. Look I am just saying people take vacations to Mexico and Canada, but nobody says I want to be interned at a concentration camp for my vacation.

I am for all the the legal immigrants obviously staying here, I am for reform so that people do have a way to come here legally, and I am for sending the criminals who came here illegally back to where they came from, because this country does not need more criminals. Send back the illegals to make room for the people who are going through the proper channels!!!!!!!!!

 

[tsst]

...In your opinion is bad logic, perhaps because you are assuming I am talking about amnesty (grant people citizenship for free). What I am advocating is a better way of allowing illegal immigrants to become citizens AFTER THEY PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES. We would not be forgiving the original crime.

I can agree to that. Though at present time is not the punishment (way they pay for their crimes), for entering the US illegally, deportation? I would assume many know what the potential punishment is before perpetrating the crime.

It would be inhumane to send someone "back" to an unfamiliar culture/place (taking into consideration I said many illegal immigrants have spent the majority of their lives here).

I understand the thought behind it but getting away with a crime for an extended period still should not excuse the crime nor hinder the punishment for it.

As for what should the fine be, I like Kathy's proposal.

PS: Not all illegal immigrants broke the federal law, as I previously explained.

Maybe the fine should be all of the back taxes and reparations for all social services and education etc for the 25 years spent here illegally. :shrugs:

Some may not have committed a criminal offense but all broke a law. Those that just have visa violations should accept the punishment for that offense and fulfill the obligation of following the guidelines set forth when receiving a visa. Repeat offenders should have their visa revoked for their offense IMO. At that point they are showing utter disregard for laws governing the visa program and immigration into the US.