S.O's feelings with animals/pets

[EsotericForest]

Well, you haven't deigned to answer the question fundamental to the discussion of your relationship framework, even though it has been asked of you, which is: do you think a man always better at leading than his wife is, and if so, what makes it so?

It's more of a question of it being his God given role...and if he isn't a good leader, then it's something he needs to step up to the plate and work on in my opinion. The world needs more men with a backbone in my opinion, regardless of what your views on relationship roles are. There are too many Christian men who are spineless and submissive to everything...and they call it "holy". Attitudes like that really irritate me. On the flip side, a lot of non-Christian men are egotistical, which is equally sickening. Men need to find middle ground and be humble, sacrificial leaders.

My opinion .

Oh, and thank you Kathy for your encouraging words, I do appreciate it

 

[desertanimal]

It's more of a question of it being his God given role...and if he isn't a good leader, then it's something he needs to step up to the plate and work on in my opinion.

Well that answers it. And you're right--if that's your bottom line, then there's nothing much to discuss about it.

Although I will never agree with your position, I respect that it is derived from a thoughtful approach to a fundamental belief.

 

[EsotericForest]

Well that answers it. And you're right--if that's your bottom line, then there's nothing much to discuss about it.

Although I will never agree with your position, I respect that it is derived from a thoughtful approach to a fundamental belief.

Well I appreciate that, and I can respect your difference of opinion. It works for my wife and I, and that's the main thing that matters for me.

 

[kathylove]

But some men are just not natural born leaders - and some women are. Maybe it is partly a question of testosterone, partly genetics, partly the way each individual is raised. But I don't believe it is JUST a question of will - for some it is natural, and for some it is not.

I am not very religious. But it seems logical that if God wanted every man to be a certain way, and every woman to be a certain way, He would have made sure that the hormones, genetics, or whatever, would give them all an equal shot at doing His will. It doesn't seem to me that a just God would give one man the genes to be a milquetoast, and expect him to perform the same as Mr. Testosterone. It seems more logical to me that if God exists in the traditional Christian sense (I am agnostic, so can't say one way or the other), then He would want each man and woman to develop into their fullest human potential, and to complete their mate in the best and fullest way possible. Since no two humans are alike, and none are perfect, it seems logical that such a complete pair would be different in every case.

It also seems likely that since only MEN wrote the Bible, and only MEN translated it from one language to another, there could be some gender and cultural bias built in, whether accidentally or on purpose, through the centuries. I would guess that if you could read the original versions, and somebody was alive who could understand that language as a LIVING language, the understanding of which would partly hinge on the culture and word usage at the time, that many Bible passages might have nuances of meaning very different that what is understood today. I am certainly not a Bible scholar, but I am just using logic and what I know of culture and language to make these guesses.

Again, I am happy that for some, your system works. But I don't see it working the same for everyone. And again, I mean no disrespect to your beliefs whatsoever. I just like discussing these ideas with somebody of a different perspective than myself.

 

[EsotericForest]

Almost the entire old testament was written in Hebrew, and a small portion was done in Aramaic. The new testament however was penned in Greek. When making a translation of the Bible, the English Standard Version (ESV) is a more recent translation of the Bible, that actually made a point of going back to the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. The Bible is more accurate than most people seem to think, and it really hasn't changed as it's gone down the line. Only more recently has it even really been translated from its original languages. Since it is such a "religious" book, it's unlikely that anything would be changed, since people will hang on every word that is in there...if there were major changes, people would've been up in arms haha.

Don't worry I don't feel disrespected, I can appreciate a mature discussion when it comes up. It's nice to actually talk to somebody who can handle it maturely. Usually when things like this come up, the hockey gloves get thrown off and it becomes a complete free-for-all

 

[desertanimal]

On the other side of your coin, Kathy, I have wondered why god would give women talents if he didn't intend for them to use them to their fullest potential. I grew up a conservative Christian and my dad was our song leader. He was the best singer and conductor of the men in our church. Fortunately but frustratingly, I am a singer and conductor far superior to my father. But there was no chance in hell I'd be leading singing in that church, because although I had the requisite talent, I lacked the requisite body part. So instead of being a good leader at what I am really good at, instead of enjoying that part of the worship service (the most joyous part of a worship service, I think) I cringed when he was flat, when he let the congregation drag, when he didn't know when to switch parts and sing bass when the basses were struggling to follow their part. No one in the congregation reached his or her fullest potential or improved in singing because he wasn't a good enough leader. And it didn't and doesn't matter how hard my dad works to be a better singer--I will always be better than he; it's just a god-given talent I have. It never made any sense to me at all that god would supposedly bestow talent, but lock it up in a woman, not to be utilized. :shrugs:

 

[EsotericForest]

Well first of all, I think in that case you need to humble yourself and accept the ways that you are in fact able to help the congregation. One has to remember that I'm painting an idealized picture of marriage. We live in a sinful, fallen world, and nothing is going to be perfect the way it was meant to be. Pride is the original sin of Lucifer, and it's one of the most common sins we struggle with today. Put aside the imperfect "politics" of church, and follow God as best you can. That's pretty much what it boils down to. You have sinful people operating what is supposed to be holy. Pride and bitterness never helped anybody. Besides, I never said a woman couldn't lead worship in church. My church has a female worship leader in fact. Women can be leaders of certain areas. I'm not saying we should live in a society where men lead anything and everything. But as I also said before, most people have a warped idea of what leadership is.

 

[desertanimal]

Well first of all, I think in that case you need to humble yourself and accept the ways that you are in fact able to help the congregation.

I don't accept the status quo when I think it is unreasonable. Wouldn't, don't, and won't. In church, I would not sit back and be led by what I thought were poor, short-sighted, unthoughtful leaders. I don't know why god would want anyone to do that.

Women can be leaders of certain areas.

If women can only be leaders of certain (but not all) areas, then why would god give them leadership talents in areas where they are not supposed to use them? In all of this discussion you have not come out and said, "Women simply don't have leadership skills in the areas where they are not supposed to lead," so I don't think you think that. If that's not the case, though, then god is giving leadership talents to women in areas they're not supposed to use them. Why on earth would a god do that?

You have sinful people operating what is supposed to be holy.

I surely agree with you there, which is, in my opinion, the fatal flaw of organized religion.

 

[EsotericForest]

I don't accept the status quo when I think it is unreasonable. Wouldn't, don't, and won't. In church, I would not sit back and be led by what I thought were poor, short-sighted, unthoughtful leaders. I don't know why god would want anyone to do that.

I never said, and God never said that you should follow those kind of leaders.

If women can only be leaders of certain (but not all) areas, then why would god give them leadership talents in areas where they are not supposed to use them? In all of this discussion you have not come out and said, "Women simply don't have leadership skills in the areas where they are not supposed to lead," so I don't think you think that. If that's not the case, though, then god is giving leadership talents to women in areas they're not supposed to use them. Why on earth would a god do that?

I honestly don't think a woman has the "talent" if you will to actually lead a marriage relationship. Anytime the woman is the stand alone leader, it blows up. I just about gurantee that every man who is being led my his wife in a relationship is in some way unhappy by it. They may not say it openly, and probably won't since they obviously lack the leadership skills already. The father has such a strong influence on his family, Christian, or not. Generally children who have a father who was there for them, and took care of them, and led them properly, are better off than the children who only had a mother. How many times have you heard "My father just wasn't there for me?"...and how few times have people ever said "My mother just wasn't there for me?". I think this is because like it or not, humans are wired this way...to look to the father as the spiritual leader of the family. The mother still leads the children, don't get me wrong...so she still is a leader in the family in her own way.

I surely agree with you there, which is, in my opinion, the fatal flaw of organized religion.

Nothing has hurt God more than religion. I believe in God...not in religion. Religion is a set of rules and regulations you need to follow. To follow God all you need to do is believe that Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior, and that your life is all about him...not yourself. It really is as easy as that. Religion tells you that you need to follow a set of rules in order to make God love you. Christ tells you that he already knows we're sinners, and that we're going to break the rules and let him down...but in spite of it, he loves us in spite of it. If you love God, you'll want to follow his guidelines, but he already knows we're going to blow it. Christianity deep down, is the only religion (Couldn't think of a better word, so we'll just go with it) that says these kind of things. Every other religion, you have to follow the rules to prove yourself worthy of God. None of us are worthy, but yet he still loves us no matter what we do.

Sorry to go all preachy on everybody, but I felt I needed to better explain Christianity.

 

[Shiari]

My boyfriend just read your last post... and all he could do was stare and then say "But I'm horrible at leading things!".

The fact that you feel that women are incapable of being a dominant partner in a relationship is one of the faces of misogyny. You probably wouldn't feel incapable of being a leader if you were a woman.

 

[EsotericForest]

I'm not saying every man needs to be president, but I believe every man is capable of leading his family. EVERY man

 

[desertanimal]

I never said, and God never said that you should follow those kind of leaders.

Well you did say that "in that case" I should

. . . humble yourself and accept the ways that you are in fact able to help the congregation.

And in my opinion, in that case, the leaders of that congregation were short-sighted and unthoughtful.

I honestly don't think a woman has the "talent" if you will to actually lead a marriage relationship. Anytime the woman is the stand alone leader, it blows up.

None of us was ever promoting women being the stand alone leader in a marriage. We were promoting equal leadership, and trading off of leadership based on each partners talents--which is to say, partnership.

And just because a woman doesn't complain about being led 100% of the time doesn't mean she's happy, much like your hen-pecked husbands. Women of most times and cultures have been strongly acculturated to accept their lot as dealt to them by men. Since we're wagering rather freely, I would wager that many (but not all women) in strict Islamic marriages would like to live in a world where they had more say over their bodies, their children, their lives. But they don't complain much, just like your hen-pecked husbands, and often they accept their situations as the proper world-order--but that doesn't mean they like it, not anymore than your hen-pecked husbands like it.

The father has such a strong influence on his family, Christian, or not. Generally children who have a father who was there for them, and took care of them, and led them properly, are better off than the children who only had a mother. How many times have you heard "My father just wasn't there for me?"...and how few times have people ever said "My mother just wasn't there for me?". I think this is because like it or not, humans are wired this way...to look to the father as the spiritual leader of the family. The mother still leads the children, don't get me wrong...so she still is a leader in the family in her own way.

I think the statistics would suggest that the reason you hear that the father wasn't there more than you hear that the mother wasn't there is exactly that--if one parent "wasn't there," either physically or emotionally, odds are strong that it was the father. Simple as that. No need to read into it some evolutionary psychology about how out brains are hard-wired, and doing so is not the most parsimonious explanation of the phenomenon. If we had as much absentee mothering in our society as we do absentee fathering, you'd hear a lot more complaining about mothers.

Nothing has hurt God more than religion.

If there's a god, then I'm sure that is probably true. Funny little paradox.

 

[Shiari]

My boyfriend still disagrees. Both he and I have met tons of guys who would be completely incapable of leading a family. Would instead be the 'deadbeat' dads you hear so very much about. To quote my boyfriend "I could lead a family, but would do so... poorly."

While your world-view may work for you... it doesn't really take in how the entire world actually works. And besides, I think I prefer that nice matriarchal culture where each woman has multiple husbands... and the males there believe that women are the proper leaders of the family.

 

[EsotericForest]

Men need to take responsibility, we're treating them like little boys and it's disgusting. The world is filled with boys who can shave...they're not real men at the core. Every man is capable of stepping up and taking responsibility for their lives, as well as the responsibility for their family. If they aren't capable of doing that, they simply need time to grow, and aren't ready for a relationship with the opposite sex.

Same goes for women though as well. If they aren't capable of stepping up into their role as matriarch of their family, then they aren't ready for a relationship either.

 

[Dinah]

I honestly don't think a woman has the "talent" if you will to actually lead a marriage relationship.

The father has such a strong influence on his family, Christian, or not. Generally children who have a father who was there for them, and took care of them, and led them properly, are better off than the children who only had a mother.

The mother still leads the children, don't get me wrong...so she still is a leader in the family in her own way.




Christianity deep down, is the only religion (Couldn't think of a better word, so we'll just go with it) that says these kind of things. Every other religion, you have to follow the rules to prove yourself worthy of God. None of us are worthy, but yet he still loves us no matter what we do.

First of all sheesh, If you get to say women don't have the talent to lead a marriage, then does that mean you are taking the gloves off? I mean you were all about rational discussion and now you are essentially saying women are incapable of running their own lives. Do I now get to say I think that men who can't handle a strong women are pathetic and weak? I mean you just called me lacking in talent so it seems fair.

Second my husband does take care of his kids, and he is there for them everyday. He makes it to every dinner, every performance, the childhood firsts, etc. He knows what they are learning in school and helps them with their work, he know what their hobbies are and participates in them, he knows who their friends are and who the parents of their friends are, and he is able to do all of that while being my partner rather than my leader.

I am glad that you do think I have enough talent to wipe up snot :shrugs:. Umm Thanks?

Um sigh, please Google a few other religions before you say such terribly inaccurate things. Take Buddhism for example. Buddhist have nobody to answer to except for themselves. Buddha said "Believe nothing no matter where you read it or who has said it. Not even if I (Buddha) have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. So there goes out the window all of that the other religions make you follow specific rules in order to prove yourself worthy stuff right?

 

[oneirogenesis]

The issue for me remains that while several respondents to this thread have expressed respect for your beliefs outright, you (EsotericForest) have yet to do the same for us. As I have said earlier, you have a right to your religious beliefs, your opinions and the happiness you gain in your relationships in whichever manner works best for you. But as a non-Christian who is happiest in relationships that amount to an equal partnership between two independent parties, I don't feel acknowledged by you. Respect is a two-way street here.

 

[desertanimal]

Men need to take responsibility, we're treating them like little boys and it's disgusting. The world is filled with boys who can shave...they're not real men at the core. Every man is capable of stepping up and taking responsibility for their lives, as well as the responsibility for their family. If they aren't capable of doing that, they simply need time to grow, and aren't ready for a relationship with the opposite sex.

Same goes for women though as well. If they aren't capable of stepping up into their role as matriarch of their family, then they aren't ready for a relationship either.

I agree completely. We have lots and lots of children masquerading as adults in the world. We should expect them to grow up. I get frustrated about that all the time.

I'll start. I will expect of adults that they think very carefully what they want from, expect of, and value in their relationships. I will demand that they not plod along blindly according to how their forefathers told them relationships should be. I will expect that they think critically and rationally about their relationships, and that they make difficult changes for the net benefit when they find that they are in situations that are not making them or their partner happy. And I won't prescribe for them how it works best or how "it should be," since they are all different people as adults with different strengths, weaknesses, compatibilities, incompatibilities, and desires for life. I will expect them to stand up and make their own well-considered decisions and (if they want to pair) to pair themselves according to a functioning inter-digitation of the aforementioned qualities that is flexible enough to always maximize the happiness and contentment of both pairmates.

You have clearly done that for yourself and have found your path. But that only makes your path best for you. It does not make your path best and most grown-up for society, best and most grown-up for most women, or best and most grown-up for most men unless they say so. It simply makes it best for you, and nothing more.

 

[oneirogenesis]

I agree completely. We have lots and lots of children masquerading as adults in the world. We should expect them to grow up. I get frustrated about that all the time.

I'll start. I will expect of adults that they think very carefully what they want from, expect of, and value in their relationships. I will demand that they not plod along blindly according to how their forefathers told them relationships should be. I will expect that they think critically and rationally about their relationships, and that they make difficult changes for the net benefit when they find that they are in situations that are not making them or their partner happy. And I won't prescribe for them how it works best or how "it should be," since they are all different people as adults with different strengths, weaknesses, compatibilities, incompatibilities, and desires for life. I will expect them to stand up and make their own well-considered decisions and (if they want to pair) to pair themselves according to a functioning inter-digitation of the aforementioned qualities that is flexible enough to always maximize the happiness and contentment of both pairmates.

You have clearly done that for yourself and have found your path. But that only makes your path best for you. It does not make your path best and most grown-up for society, best and most grown-up for most women, or best and most grown-up for most men unless they say so. It simply makes it best for you, and nothing more.

Beautifully said. I could not agree with you more.

 

[EsotericForest]

First of all sheesh, If you get to say women don't have the talent to lead a marriage, then does that mean you are taking the gloves off? I mean you were all about rational discussion and now you are essentially saying women are incapable of running their own lives. Do I now get to say I think that men who can't handle a strong women are pathetic and weak? I mean you just called me lacking in talent so it seems fair.

Second my husband does take care of his kids, and he is there for them everyday. He makes it to every dinner, every performance, the childhood firsts, etc. He knows what they are learning in school and helps them with their work, he know what their hobbies are and participates in them, he knows who their friends are and who the parents of their friends are, and he is able to do all of that while being my partner rather than my leader.

I am glad that you do think I have enough talent to wipe up snot :shrugs:. Umm Thanks?

Um sigh, please Google a few other religions before you say such terribly inaccurate things. Take Buddhism for example. Buddhist have nobody to answer to except for themselves. Buddha said "Believe nothing no matter where you read it or who has said it. Not even if I (Buddha) have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. So there goes out the window all of that the other religions make you follow specific rules in order to prove yourself worthy stuff right?

Buddism is more of a self-indulgence religion than anything. Besides it still isn't what I'm talking about. It's not a god granting grace in spite of their sinful ways...it's a god saying to do whatever the crap they want and just depend on yourself for everything. There is a difference, so my broad sweeping statement still stands.

Everybody does need to remember that I am only a 20 year old man, who has more than enough garbage on my own plate. I don't feel competent enough on this subject to really be worthy of teaching it, so I'm simply doing my best to explain it the best I can. Unfortunately I honestly feel like I'm doing a poor job. I apologize for my lack of wisdom in explaining some of the things I believe to be true...things that I feel God has convicted of me of, and things far wiser men and women than I have explained to me. Unfortunately I'm not them, and I apologize for perhaps turning some people off to some of these beliefs, due to my immature explanations. When I have everybody around me pretty much against me, I know I turn into the fight or flight mode, and I can get a bit abrasive. I apologize that my frustration with myself is so plain to be seen, when you see how much I attack others. More than anything I want to help others, and just give simple advice. I'll try from now on to handle things more maturely, and be more respectful of others here.

 

[EsotericForest]

Let me also throw in that when it comes to seeing an actual relationship the way I see it at work...you would pretty much see a relationship that works 50/50 between the husband and the wife. Both partners contribute equally in decision making, work load, budgeting, and everything else. Marriage is all about having a team, and being of equal worth to eachother. I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression...but as I've said many times before, I think it boils down to our society having a warped idea of what "leadership" in a marriage is.