No. You can't tell a creamsicle from an Amel. I've asked in several threads for definitive markers for this minor task and noone can do it.
If Don's information is accurate, then the "originator" of the Ultras obviously lied to everyone to create that market. The only hybridization you could claim with Tessera at this point would be those bred into Ultra. Let's just cut to the chase. Are you accusing KJ, Graham and Don of lying about Tessera?
D80
IF you can't tell a cream from it's color, how can all these poster's on here tell a snake is a creamsicle from just a pic?? :shrugs: We'll get back to this later...
Regardless of whether the originator of Ultras lied or not, Rich Z dealt in them, and claimed he saw "No Hybrid markers" in his line. Don, on the other hand says he KNOWS they were, and tried to tell every one.
Are you calling one of them a Liar, Brent? Or is it possible that one couldn't SEE the "markers"? Is it possible one was just wrong, and not intentionally lying?
If Rich IS a liar, doesn't it throw all the morphs he discovered under scrutiny? Caramel, Charcoal, Cinder, Lavender...?
Well, does it?
Wait, YOU in fact work with some of those ...Don't you Brent?
You "claim" not to work with hybrids, don't you? But, Brent ...are you lying?
It's really interesting how similar the origins of these 2 morphs are. Both of them all seemingly shrouded in mystery and questions and all.
Yes Brent he is
Abel Don claims ultra's are hybrids and therefore stated any tessera ultra morphs were hybrids- yes he said it and yes I read it. However, that doesn't make non ultra tessera's hybrids, and no I don't believe they are misleading us when they state this. Remember the parents lineage from the original tessera's were unknown so is it possible? Sure, but as I already have said in two posts now because of natural and forced hybridization the purity of any corn is iffy. Obviously you won't be a future tessera owner and thats fine, but why keep fighting a subject with no answers other than the one's you've been given?
Deniall,
That's just plain RUDE AND NASTY! I NEVER called anybody a LIAR! And your obviously not paying attention, if that's all you took from the conversation.
Hey, you know there's an oil spill in the gulf of Mexico, should we all dump our used oil in there? It's already "iffy" right? So what's a little more polution? Corns are "iffy", so if Tessara is a hybrid it's o.k. that it's not labelled as such, right?
Just wanted everyone to be clear on a few points pertaining to this thread. Those of you that know me, know that I have been a missionary in telling people the Ultra mutation had hybrid origins. When the debates first raged, I was blue in the face reminding everyone that the originator declared that he used a gray rat & snow corn in the first pairing. In fact, only after that original breeder discovered how unpopular hybrids were - did he claim that in the same year he bred a regular snow corn to that first UltraHypo (as he called them) and therefore some of us in the hobby actually did have pure corns. Whether he did or did not, the die was cast. Some still say, "I can see that I got one of the pure Ultra types since I don't see any alien markers", but we all know that if you pour enough water over a cup of milk in your bathtub, you'll end up with a bathtub of clear water. Yes, it is uber watery, clear milk (or invisibly milky water), but the milk is still there (I'm not counting all the pathogens on the surface of the tub or the additives in the water). Therefore, some Ultra types show NONE of the hybrid markers seen in early generations, but honestly, I rarely see one of those. Again, anyone that knows me will tell you that I never claimed Ultra types (Ultras and Ultramels) were pure corns, and I am often the first one that brings up the hybrid reality in conversations. If you go back to the forum archives, they will bear me out. Also, you will see that a decision was made on this forum to consider them pure corns. THIS is the reason you have not seen people calling them hybrids. By the time the debate began, hundreds of people had already bred the Ultra mutation into "allegedly" pure corns. This brings us back to perception. If you perceive that all corns not exhibiting hybrid markers are pure corns, that is only your perception. In reality, it doesn't take many subsequent generations of breeding a hybrid snake back to the desired phenotype - to end up with 95%+ pure-looking corns. Hence, in the absence of nDNA testing (expensive and potentially unrevealing), the appearance of a corn has little to do with its' true genotype. If you rely on mtDNA, you're only seeing maternal heritage.
Regarding the opinions some are making based on seeing the Tessera X Ultramel progeny I showed, those aberrant markings on the Anery and Ultramel are indeed markings that people should question (since they are not common in non Ultra Tesseras), BUT I've seen allegedly pure motleys with the same aberrant markings. Are motleys hybrids? Let's hope not. Of course - as stated previously - we don't question zagging on lavenders and aztec markings in any color compound. My point is that if you have only seen those Tesseras, know that they represent less than 3% of all the Tesseras I've produced. When I have time, I'll post pix of the non Ultra Tesseras for your review. Bottom line (as someone already stated); the Tessera mutants demonstrate no more atypical markings than motleys. And if anyone says that any cornsnake mutant demonstrates hybrid markers simply because it doesn't look like a wild corn, then, they should not invest in any corn that does not look like a wild-type. Drawing the conclusion that because Tesseras do not have wild-type pattern and are therefore hybrids is like saying albinos can't be pure corns OR striped corns must be garter or ribbon snake hybrids.
BTW, the Tessera mutation is demonstrated in at least one other rat snake species, Elaphe situla. In speaking to Karl Krumke of Winding Creek Herps, he confirmed that the Tessera-like mutation in that species is inherited dominantly. If you turn to Plate 31 in the book "A Monograph of the Colubrid Snakes of the Genus Elaphe - Fitzinger" by Klaus-Dieter Schultz - [Koeltz Scientific Books - 1996], you will see several examples of this pattern mutation. Automatically presuming that the Tessera mutation must have derived from that species demands the parallel that motley and striped corns surely derived from other snake species. Since all colubrid snakes of the world have a common ancestor, eventually, virtually all pattern mutations will be found in all species.
Brain fodder: Have you any idea how many non-mutant Ultra/Ultramel siblings are sold every year as non-mutants? Since thousands are produced and sold annually in our hobby, the chance of you having one or more of those is high. There would be NO way you could distinguish one from any other non-mutant corn. In fact, the most common non Ultra/Ultramel siblings are Amels. I'm betting that over 90% of you out there unknowingly own some of those. If a "purist" made the decision to get rid of all their corns (or rats, kings, bulls, etc.) in a preliminary effort to start a species pure snake collection from reliably wild-caught stock, they could likely never again own a mutation of the respective species. Since we don't have pedigrees of our snakes that reliably go back dozens of generations, there would be no way for you to determine the genetic purity of ANY snake, AND how reliable are the pedigrees we have? Also, keep in mind that only the likes of thoroughbred horses that sometimes cost millions of dollars require strict DNA evidence of every generation. Likewise, no-one can really say for sure that their champion dog does not have DNA from a different breed. And I'm not referring to all dog species originating from wolves.
Please, don't take this to be a defense of hybridization. Again, I have never missed an opportunity to mention the hybrid origins of the Ultra mutation - when engaged in conversations about them. I'm not trying to justify hybridization in corns. I'm only setting the record straight on the likelihood that hybrids are in all of our collections. Even though many of us knew the Ultra mutation was not of pure corn origins (via confession by the originator), the reigning forum of the realm at that time (CS) specifically declared that in so much as the credibility of the original breeder was in question and that there were already so many Ultra types in collections, they were considered pure corns. If you find those archives, you will see my staunch opposition to that decision.
Finally: Are Tesseras hybrids? No more than Motleys in my experienced opinion.
Thanks, Don for your input. I can appreciate what you are saying, as well as how you are saying it. I have no problems with you, or the animals you breed. I do however question "THIS" morph. The question is : Is the "Tessera"
stripe gene strong enough in it's dominance to "jump" species? Did the gene originate in Situla, or Corn? I have as of this date, NEVER seen the original animals posted on any sites, I had not seen non Tessera siblings, until you posted them here.
By one of your own peoples definition,(name changed to protect them from being "singled out")
Peer Reviewed? Statistical Confirmation? Scientific Circles? Slow down there buddy, you need to not use so many big words. You are assuming (you know what happens when you do that) that slangenboard and chuck know what all those words mean. Of course you can have statistical confirmation from only one offspring, that is why humans have made great genetic subjects for so many years. We humans can have so many babies so quickly that we were the first organism to be understood genetically. We were Gregor Mendel's model.
Oh wait, that's all wrong, Mendel studied pea plants, oh yeah, and he produced hundreds of offspring from one pairing, before he made conclusions. Then others reproduced and checked his work. That must have been what you were talking about with all this statistical conformation and peer reviewed garbage. :headbang:
It really was not that much to ask of the guy. Rule out Hybrid* . Has not been done.
(*originally caramel)
Do you feel, that if you had raised the hybrid flag higher and shouted louder, that Ultras would have EVER gotten the foot hold they did? Further do you feel enough "pure" corn breedings have been done, to begin breeding Tessera's into known hybrids? Isn't that poisoning the well before you drink, so to speak?
Now then...
Quiet simply, no you can't tell simply from coloration.... It won't be that easy, the more corn blood it contains, the more the creamsicle appears to be a corn. Are you really suggesting a snake that is say 85% corn and 15% emoryi can be picked out by color alone, EVERYTIME?
Exactly! Thank you ! If you can't tell an Emoryi x Corn, then... how can you tell a low percentage hybrid, with a Dominant gene such as a Situla x corn that's only 6% (roughly) Situla.
Oh and how are your creamsicles doing, you remember, the pair you picked up in 2006? Or the rootbeers and jungle you got in 2002 and 2003 (I think the dates are right). Oh and did you ever get those bairds x corns yo were looking for?
The creamsicles are actually 05's?, and doing fine. I no longer have the jungle, and (which) rootbeer?, but no I NEVER did get the Bairds X Corns. The only person I could find selling them was selling animals of questionable health. Thanks for asking.
"Before you pick this apart because I am not "in" or part of the "click".
PLEASE read what this says, and actually THINK about what it means.
Please forgive me if I go "ALL-OVER" the place. If you need clarification I will be happy to try. PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL!!"
You said that in a thread YOU started to debate if Miami Phase could behave in a simple recessive fashion. Of course, to be fair, you did state those were your "crack pot ideas". Wouldn't it have been nice if you lived by those rules when you joined in this thinly veiled "debate" thread ?
You also once posted you wanted a Miami Phase corn and an Emoryi to breed them together, you also purchased the hybrids mentioned above, so obviously you are not against hybrids/integrades.
Umm... WOW! That's going WAY far back. You didn't need to go that far back... You DO need to get your facts straight, though. Some of this is simply not true. I did start a debate on Miami's, which is another issue entirely. I was and AM trying to find some "Pure" Miami corns, and Emoryi Rat's, as they DO make BEAUTIFUL babies. Which for some reason nobody seems to believe.:shrugs:
Oh, sure they'll believe that they make good creamsicles, and they can be used to clean the ground color of Candy canes, so why can't they be used to clean Miami's, too? :shrugs: They can! AND THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL!! Anyway, I was never able to purchase them, why do you have some for sale? And, for the record I never said I was against hybrids. I have only EVER said that I think Tessera's ARE hybrids. Since you seem to know how diverse my background is, then you SHOULD know I am not a "noobie" when it comes to hybrids. I like hybrids, because they're USUALLY sold honestly. Ever seen a pure snake sold as a hybrid?
This only leaves the fact you wish to attack Graham, Don and KJ's reputation. I think the nail was hit on the head long ago, you ARE the jealous type. Maybe I am wrong, but much like your "crack pot ideas", that is my thought on you.
You know, this will possibly get me banned (I hope not), but abell and whoty, I think you are an idiots. I am tired of reading your attempts to debate this subject. You are content to continue to stir the pot. I am not silly enough to try and convince you of anything by continuing to post. Neither of you have caused me to get my "panties in a bunch". I just wanted the release of telling you both what I though.
Your right, this is crossing the line. I've never attacked anyone's reputation. I have never called anyone a Liar. I have only EVER said that I thought they were hybrids, and stated how it could be so, and that I would not be convinced otherwise. And I have only "stirred-the-pot" when "called out" to do so.
Oh, one final thing abeel, you have asked a few other posters if they want to discuss this with you in person. Well, I will be in Daytona and I will be more than happy to discuss this with you in person if you want too.
dc
Sounds great Crambree! But if you can't convince me here... I don't think You're really informed well enough to convince me in person either. Doesn't mean you can't try though, right?
By the way if we're going over things I've said in the past, then in a past Tessera thread (you'd have seen it if you read the thread I linked too) I also said....
:roflmao:
Wow!! your charging 1200+ for these snakes, and only half the first clutch will be Tesseras? I can get a jungle for 100.00-200.00 and ALL of it's first clutch will be Jungles, or Supercorns depending on your pov. :roflmao:
What happens if I breed a Tessera to a King, or Bull or? Will I get Tesseras?
What would it prove if someone did? Nothing! Only that it is dominant to spotted. You really can't PROVE it is not a HYBRID. But, no one can prove, (right now) that it is, either.
Why fight it? Take a page from Hollywood... any publicity is good publicity!
Marked it for what it is. A dominant stripe gene, and leave it at that.
So why can't it be left at that? Why do I need to agree that it's not a hybrid? If corns are as "diluted" as has been suggested, then it's STILL a hybrid's trait, even if it doesn't come from Situla. :eek1:
The possibilities...:uhoh:
There is a Jungle Tessera? on Kingsnake right now...
