I see dead people ...

[tyflier]

Tyflyer, I hate to disagree with you once again but I don't think you are being very fair or accurate with that statement. With the government to regulate banks now, who are very heavily government regulated, it is against the law for banks to lie to us and rob us. Are you just slinging mud or can you point to an actual lie or robbery? Banks cannot spend your money without your permission, again, government regulation. The capital that banks have at their disposal is called profits, all business strive to have profits, it is the American way.

Investing the money that I put into the bank in a fund that I do not approve of, and then telling me that they do not have MY MONEY when that fund goes belly up is unethical, immoral, abusive, fraudulent, and NOW illegal. Banks are not hedge funds. Banks are not investment firms. Banks are moentary diustribution centers. They take in money, they loan out money. If I want my bi-weekly paycheck invested, I'll speak to an investment broker. When I put my money into a checking account, I expect that money to be there for MY use...not the banks.

I also don't expect banks, which are publicly traded, to lie about their profits by reporting accounts recievable as profit at 9 times their actual value, in order to inflate their net worth, and generate false profit reports.

Up until recently, this activity was perfectly legal, and one reason why banks collapsed and needed bailouts from the government. Good thing that government was there to loan the banks enough money to stay afloat, instead of collapsing our entire economy into oblivian...

Health insurance companies get rich by providing coverage from people. The people they deny coverage to do not pay for that service. Again, the insurance companies are heavily government regulated.

My best friend is lying in his death bed as we speak. He has had the same insurance provider for 25+ years, never had a late premium payment, never had a past due account. When he was admitted to the hospital 3 weeks ago with acute dehydration, abdominal swelling, lower extremity paralysis, and torso numbness, his insurance company refused services beyond the dehydration. Once he was deemed "fully hydrated", his insurance company refused to pay for any further treatment, and sent him home.

Until 2014, this is not only perfectly legal...it's common practice. When an insured individual racks up enough healthcare costs, the insurance company simply refuses to continue paying for it. And somehow, this has been legal for years...

Insider trading, fraudulent profit reporting, and all manner of ILLEGAL activities all designed to dupe us, the poor citizens, out of every penny we have. Those activities are also against the law. GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS. Ask anyone involved with the stock market if they have ever heard of the FTC. Martha Stewart for example.

Maybe the government and politicians are exactly who we should fear...???

So...these things are against the law, and still an incredibly common practice among wall street gurus, financial "wizards" and day traders. You wanna tell me again why I should trust these people to regulate themselves?

Politicians suck. They are lazy, corrupt, and typically unfair. But at least we have a choice in who they are.

It's obvious to anyone paying attention that there needs to be some sort of regulatory practice and enforcement. Financial institutions have not, will not, and should not regulate themselves. When they do, our entire economy collapses. So what other choice is there? Let them continue to operate the way they always have? That's what got us here in the first place, and somehow you think it's likely to help us get out?

Hate to disagree with you, but that just plain don't make no sense...:idea::nope:

 

[tyflier]

All the banks in America are in financial trouble right now. We can point fingers in a lot of directions and blame a lot of different people but the fact remains the same. Most banks are supported and owned by their stockholders. It is the responsibilities of the bank officers and their board of directors to protect the investments of their stock holders.

Regardless of who you chose to blame, it would be irresponsible for a bank to spend money on expensive labor (even you) or to turn down bail out money that may save the bank from financial ruin. Even if taking that money is distasteful.

I fail to see how doing that constitutes lying, robbing, or spending our money without our permission.

Statement still stands unsubstantiated.

It is the practices of the banks within these "guidelines" that PUT them in financial ruin. Loopholes, "grey areas", tax cuts...these things were exploited at every possible turn by the banks in an effort to create profit.

Yes...politicians made mortgages more accessible to middle-income people by writing regulations. It was the banks that leveraged those loans to report inflated profits. That wasn't part of the regulation, but that is what caused the collapse.

Everytime regulations are introduced, some politico screams about redistribution of wealth or socialism, hollering to "let the free market work!!" in an effort to revoke those regulations, and allow big corporations to continue operating as they always have. And everytime regulations are repealed or revoked, corporations rush to find a loophole to exploit in order to inflate their profits.

I don't blame politicians for the decisions made by bank executives and CEOs, no matter how bad those decisions are.

I blame politicians when the regulations that are designed to protect the common citizen are revoked, removed, or ignored.

You seem to think you are looking at the "whole picture", but as far as I can see, you are forgetting to put the blame on the shoulders of the individuals making the horrible financial decisions and creating their own demise. Hate to say it, but those people aren't the politicians. Politicians didn't make banks over-sell bad stocks, inflate their profits by leveraging AR, and selling-out their stockholders...

 

[Leew]

Tyflyer, what you say sounds horrible and despicable. But I have a hard time believing in it. I am sure there is more to the story than you are telling us. If you put money in a checking account, plain and simple as your say, then that money will still be there when you are ready to spend it. Unless you have agreed to allow the bank to invest that, they cannot touch it. That is the law plain and simple. If what you say were true nobody would put money in a bank. That makes no logical sense.

If you pay for insurance and sign a policy that states what you will pay and what the insurance company will cover then you are both legally bound by that contract. I feel very bad for your friend but again I think there has to be more to the story than you are saying.

I don't know what your employment is but I bet you work hard for the money you earn. Further, I would bet if you could see a way to earn some extra money without breaking the law or doing anything unethical, you would be more than willing to work a little harder to achieve that. That makes you like everyone else including those mystical Wall Street Gurus you speak of. What is more, if they break the law, just like you they will go to jail.

If you don't like the laws and feel people are getting away with your money then you should campaign to elect new law makers.

 

[Leew]

Hey Tyflyer, I don't think you and I are going to find middle ground on this, lets call it a draw. I hate never ending internet battles. Lets quit while we are still friends and agree to disagree. I have enjoyed hearing your points of view.

 

[Duff]

I'm about the furthest thing there is from a ME ME ME personality. But this is clearly a waste of time.

 

[tyflier]

Tyflyer, what you say sounds horrible and despicable. But I have a hard time believing in it. I am sure there is more to the story than you are telling us. If you put money in a checking account, plain and simple as your say, then that money will still be there when you are ready to spend it. Unless you have agreed to allow the bank to invest that, they cannot touch it. That is the law plain and simple. If what you say were true nobody would put money in a bank. That makes no logical sense.

If you pay for insurance and sign a policy that states what you will pay and what the insurance company will cover then you are both legally bound by that contract. I feel very bad for your friend but again I think there has to be more to the story than you are saying.

I don't know what your employment is but I bet you work hard for the money you earn. Further, I would bet if you could see a way to earn some extra money without breaking the law or doing anything unethical, you would be more than willing to work a little harder to achieve that. That makes you like everyone else including those mystical Wall Street Gurus you speak of. What is more, if they break the law, just like you they will go to jail.

If you don't like the laws and feel people are getting away with your money then you should campaign to elect new law makers.

I did campaign to elect new lawmakers. And every new law that has been proposed since he has been in office has faced a filibuster and prosecution as socialism by a pissed off republican party.

You seem to think I am making this all up. Pray tell...what do you think happened to our economy? Which evil politician destroyed the world we live in?

 

[tsst]

... Which evil politician destroyed the world we live in?

Everyone that voted in the loopholes that allowed or even worse encouraged abuses by executives. Most of which were receiving large kick backs (oops campaign contributions) to do so. Everyone that continually chokes our freedom under the guise of protecting us or helping us. Politicians have the ability to change things but most often those changes serve mostly to benefit themselves or their friends not those they work for.

Do you believe the Obamas were really worried about your and your daughters health when she was buying $500 tennis shoes to wear to the homeless shelter? Or during their European vacation? Do you believe McCain cared about your job when he was buying his 6th or 7th house? Do you believe Clinton was worried about childhood education when he was being adulteress in the highest office or when he was committing perjury to a federal grand jury? Do you believe Nixon was thinking of your career while managing to be impeached? Do you believe Carter was concerned with the future potential of a 9/11 type event when he twiddled his thumbs for 444 days during the siege of the embassy?

The problem is they are so wrapped up in getting their next vote (ie staying in power) that doing the right thing is at the bottom of the list for most if not all of them.

Or did you mean politicians that didn't reside here? Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, Lenin, Mussolini, Zedong, Pot, Jong-Il, Komani, Castro, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Leew]

I'm not going to point fingers or try to place blame Tyflyer. I don't think you can narrow it down to rich people, or bankers, or republicans as you have done. I think that is too neat and tidy to try to heap the sins of the world on one or two groups.

I don't think you are making this all up. I can plainly see that you are upset and angry. I think you may be leaving some of your story out to make it fit you perception better. But that is a normal thing for people to do when they are angry and feel like the situation is beyond their control. Your attitude is understandable but maybe in the cold light of day you may realize that some of the things you have said are not necessarily accurate.

 

[Leew]

Tsst, that is very well said. I think you see what is happening.

 

[tyflier]

Everyone that voted in the loopholes that allowed or even worse encouraged abuses by executives. Most of which were receiving large kick backs (oops campaign contributions) to do so. Everyone that continually chokes our freedom under the guise of protecting us or helping us. Politicians have the ability to change things but most often those changes serve mostly to benefit themselves or their friends not those they work for.

Do you believe the Obamas were really worried about your and your daughters health when she was buying $500 tennis shoes to wear to the homeless shelter? Or during their European vacation? Do you believe McCain cared about your job when he was buying his 6th or 7th house? Do you believe Clinton was worried about childhood education when he was being adulteress in the highest office or when he was committing perjury to a federal grand jury? Do you believe Nixon was thinking of your career while managing to be impeached? Do you believe Carter was concerned with the future potential of a 9/11 type event when he twiddled his thumbs for 444 days during the siege of the embassy?

The problem is they are so wrapped up in getting their next vote (ie staying in power) that doing the right thing is at the bottom of the list for most if not all of them.

Or did you mean politicians that didn't reside here? Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, Lenin, Mussolini, Zedong, Pot, Jong-Il, Komani, Castro, etc, etc, etc.

I agree with you 100%. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...politicians suck. It doesn't matter which side of the fence they claim to play on, they are only in it for themselves. I've never laid claim that politicians were guilt-free.

But that doesn't change the fact that bankers and financial corporations made very bad decisions about how to spend, track, and quantify their money. It is these decisions that have collapsed the economy, not bad politicians, all by themselves.

I'm not saying I trust politicians to run the financial institutions by themselves. I'm simply saying that financial institutions, corporations, insurance companies and investment firms and banks all need to be regulated by someone. If not the government...who?

If you do away with governmental regulations over these corporations, what do you think will happen next? CEOs will suddenly become altruistic and just start being fair out of the goodness of their hearts? Do you really think these individuals, whom are currently walking a very fine line between legal and illegal[and stumbling along the way], are going to suddenly decide for themselves to walk a straight and by-the-letter line of business ethics?

I'm not saying politicians should run Wall Street. I'm saying that governmental controls are vital to keeping the OTHER cretins from thoroughly disregarding business ethics. I'm not a fan of placing one group of cretins in charge of another, but much like voting for a president...I don't have any really good options, so I'll take the lesser of two evils...

In this case, that is governmental controls to close the loopholes and enforce the regulations put in place...

 

[tsst]

I don't have a problem with laws and regulations that are needed to control fraud, or punish a murderer, or protect our borders (oops forgot they don't do that) etc. I do have a problem when the gov tries to micro manage by taking over healthcare, owning large portions of private business, running the banks, etc. They have proven in almost every single case they fail miserably. Hell most can't even manage their own checkbook or personal lives or pay taxes.

I think more checks and balances for the politico system need to be in place before they are given any more control over anything. There is where the problem arises. The folks in the system would have to put those very checks and balances in place over themselves. Not going to happen. Until then you have the wolves (gov) and the foxes (corrupt business) guarding the hen house (our money, freedoms and rights). Who loses in that scenario?

 

[tyflier]

I don't have a problem with laws and regulations that are needed to control fraud, or punish a murderer, or protect our borders (oops forgot they don't do that) etc. I do have a problem when the gov tries to micro manage by taking over healthcare, owning large portions of private business, running the banks, etc. They have proven in almost every single case they fail miserably. Hell most can't even manage their own checkbook or personal lives or pay taxes.

The exact same thing can be said of most CEOs and corporate bigwigs. Your words are just as true for CEOs of major corporations as they are for politicians. Like I said before...at least I have a choice in w2hich politicians get the job.

I think more checks and balances for the politico system need to be in place before they are given any more control over anything. There is where the problem arises. The folks in the system would have to put those very checks and balances in place over themselves. Not going to happen. Until then you have the wolves (gov) and the foxes (corrupt business) guarding the hen house (our money, freedoms and rights). Who loses in that scenario?

Bottom line...we lose regardless. We are poor, individual citizens. There is very little protection for us. CEOs and politicians need to get rich from someone else's sweat equity, and that's what we are good for.

But we do have the government, and we have the right to elect our governing officials, and we have the right to petition our government for change. We don't have any say in any case over which CEO gets put in the big seat, which policies they follow, or how they run their business. At lreast with government we have a say, or, at the very least, we have the promise of a voice. Whether or not it gets heard is a completely different story...

 

[Leew]

Tyflyer, I certainly and not suggesting we do away with regulations. I don't think anyone else has either. The problems we are facing today are not the result of lack of regulation. A lot of bad decisions were made by a lot of people. There is much more involved that just the banks "robbing" you and me.

I see banks and big business trying to make a profit and earn a living just like you and me. With the exception of a few dishonest people, I think they are doing it fairly and above board. I don't feel like I can say the same for politicians in general. I think they are lining their pockets with our money behind closed doors.

 

[tyflier]

Tyflyer, I certainly and not suggesting we do away with regulations. I don't think anyone else has either. The problems we are facing today are not the result of lack of regulation. A lot of bad decisions were made by a lot of people. There is much more involved that just the banks "robbing" you and me.

And I'm certainly not suggesting that Wall St. become a playground for politicians and legislators.

The problems we are facing today are primarily the result of bad financial decisions made by CEOs and bankers. I don't see many politicians sitting on the board making the decisions. I don't see many politicians sitting in front of a Senate Judiciary Committe because their financial practices were potentially fraudulent. I don't see many politicians exploiting loopholes in insurance law, exploiting loopholes in banking regulations, and exploiting loopholes in finance reporting regulations in an effort to grossly inflate and misrepresent their profit values.

I DO see politicians bowing to lobbyists, fighting more strict regulations designed to close these loopholes, and shouting to "let the free market work!!" because they are trying to convince the public that any government oversight is socialism. I find that deplorable and disgusting as well, and I don't doubt for one minute that it is financially driven due to "campaign contributions", and back-alley dealings. But shooting a man in the back, and closing your eyes while someone else does it are not the same crime. Related, certainly. Both incredibly offensive, absolutely. But not the same...

I see banks and big business trying to make a profit and earn a living just like you and me. With the exception of a few dishonest people, I think they are doing it fairly and above board. I don't feel like I can say the same for politicians in general. I think they are lining their pockets with our money behind closed doors.

I don't see the dishonest as the minority here. When we are talking about the highest echelons of financial corporations, insurance companies, and international banking, I, unfortunately, tend to see far more greedy, overzealous, and potentially fraudulent individuals than not.

I imagine that 99% of the lower ranking officials, common administrators, managers, supervisors and laborers are honest, hard-working individuals making a buck from their own sweat. But the upper tiers, the big wigs and decision makers...these individuals exploit us, the loopholes, the lobbyists, and anyone else they can pull the wool over in an effort to lie, cheat, and steal a few more dollars...

I'm NOT saying politicians are better. I'm also not saying they are worse. I'm saying that at least I, you, and everyone else each have a choice in which ones hold office and which ones don't. Placing the blame for the financial crisis squarely and solely on the shoulders of politicians, as it seems you and tsst have done, isn't accurate. Certainly they hold a share in the blame. But ultimately, the horrible decisions were made, in majority, by the other group of thieves...

But in truth, as far as I can see, we don't have many options. We either have an elected group of greedy bastards watching an employed group of greedy bastards, or we have the employed group of greedy bastards watching over themselves. Neither one is ideal, but the former is certainly more palatable, in my opinion...

 

[Leew]

Tyflyer, I'm sorry to hear you talking that way. I can see you are disillusioned with system as it it. I think it is unfair and unrealistic to say that anyone earning more than a certain amount of money must be dishonest. I don't believe that. I think most people are basically honest and doing the best they can for themselves and the organizations they work for. That would include you and I and Bill Gates.

I think we have beat this to death. I don't think there is anything to be gained by continuing. I am feeling heat and anger from your posts and think this is a good place to end this discussion. I have enjoyed discussing this with you and hearing your point of view. I hope you can find happiness in your life.

God Bless you Tyflyer.

 

[tyflier]

Tyflyer, I'm sorry to hear you talking that way. I can see you are disillusioned with system as it it. I think it is unfair and unrealistic to say that anyone earning more than a certain amount of money must be dishonest. I don't believe that. I think most people are basically honest and doing the best they can for themselves and the organizations they work for. That would include you and I and Bill Gates.

I never said anything about people making more than a certain amount being dishonest. I said I tend to see most CEOs of most major corporations, banks and insurance companies as dishonest. That's a HUGE difference, and really not that far off from what you are saying. The only difference between my statements and yours are that you feel all politicians are dishonest and out for themselves, and I feel CEOs are generally dishonest and out for themselves. I don't think there is much difference at all, other than where we each choose to place the blame.

In essence, you blame those trying to make and enforce regulations, and I choose to blame those making the bad decisions. Both sets of people are generally dishonest and out for themselves. I think we can agree at least on that much...

I think we have beat this to death. I don't think there is anything to be gained by continuing. I am feeling heat and anger from your posts and think this is a good place to end this discussion. I have enjoyed discussing this with you and hearing your point of view. I hope you can find happiness in your life.

God Bless you Tyflyer.

I am very happy and blessed. Thank you.

Any heat or anger you are feeling from my posts is wholly on you. I am not angry at anything. I find the implication that politicians should take all the blame while CEOs are just "honest people trying to make a buck" a VERY laughable thing for anyone to truly believe, but it doesn't make me angry.

You said earlier that it is normal for people to block out what they don't like, and to see things in such a way as to fit with their preconcieved ideas. I agree with you on that. It happens all the time. I just don't think it is me that is doing that...

But I'm not angry nor heated. We don't have to agree. It's really OK to discuss ideas and opinions without convincing each other. I'm not going to change my perception, and you're unlikely to change yours. And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Leew]

That is great Tyflyer, I am glad you feel blessed and happy. Just as a point of clarification, I have tried to be very careful to not place the blame on any single group of people. I believe many different facets have played a part in our current situation. Some of them are greedy businessmen, some politicians. Some foolish consumers need to be included. We can even point a finger at the Chinese government. It is a very complicate problem, I think it would be short sighted to put this all in the lap of any one group.

I wish you could take a broader view of "CEO"s. They are just people like you and I. They didn't come from a different planet and were not raised by wolves. To say that CEOs in general are dishonest or greedy is really a form of discrimination. You are making judgments about people you have never met and know very little or nothing about. That is rather unfair don't you think?

 

[tyflier]

That is great Tyflyer, I am glad you feel blessed and happy. Just as a point of clarification, I have tried to be very careful to not place the blame on any single group of people. I believe many different facets have played a part in our current situation. Some of them are greedy businessmen, some politicians. Some foolish consumers need to be included. We can even point a finger at the Chinese government. It is a very complicate problem, I think it would be short sighted to put this all in the lap of any one group.

I agree with you. There are TONS of people that are responsible for our current situation. My main point of contention was that politicians are not the sole blame. You and tsst both made statements that seemed to saddle politicians with the bulk of the blame, and I simply disagreed with that.

I wish you could take a broader view of "CEO"s. They are just people like you and I. They didn't come from a different planet and were not raised by wolves. To say that CEOs in general are dishonest or greedy is really a form of discrimination. You are making judgments about people you have never met and know very little or nothing about. That is rather unfair don't you think?

Not all CEOs, and not CEOs "in general"...CEOs of major corporations, generally speaking. There is a difference between saying "CEOs in general are dishonest and corrupt" and saying "Most CEOs of major corporations are, generally speaking, dishonest." One lumps every person bearing the title of "CEO" into a single group, the other links a single group of CEOs together.

Besides...how is that worse than lumping all politicians under the single roof of "corrupt"? Again...my statements are ONLY different from yours in whom I choose to blame. Our words are almost identical, except that you blame politicians and I blame corporations. By blaming all politicians aren't you discriminating against people just like you and me whom you have never met? Isn't that unfair? :shrugs:

 

[Leew]

That is great Tyflyer, I am glad you feel blessed and happy. Just as a point of clarification, I have tried to be very careful to not place the blame on any single group of people. I believe many different facets have played a part in our current situation. Some of them are greedy businessmen, some politicians. Some foolish consumers need to be included. We can even point a finger at the Chinese government. It is a very complicate problem, I think it would be short sighted to put this all in the lap of any one group.

I wish you could take a broader view of "CEO"s. They are just people like you and I. They didn't come from a different planet and were not raised by wolves. To say that CEOs in general are dishonest or greedy is really a form of discrimination. You are making judgments about people you have never met and know very little or nothing about. That is rather unfair don't you think?

How is that???

 

[wstphal]

Let's just say that power corrupts many people, CEOs of major corporations and politicians alike, and both have played their roles in getting us into our current mess. The question is, how do we change it? Sensible regulation seems to be part of it. The CEOs of major corporations "game the system" so they get unfair advantages that protect their companies from actual free markets, while the little company gets regulated to death because its CEO doesn't have the power to corrupt the politicians to get protection from the function of the markets. Seems like both sides are dirty to me.