O my gosh I want a ball python!!!!

[Calift]

I think we can summarize that BPs and corns are different.

They have different requires. Whether this requirements are more difficult or less difficult depends on the individual keepers.

Thus it is important that EVERYONE who wants a snake of either species do their research and ensure they can properly commit to the needs of the animal.

 

[KillerCami]

I don't know about that. I think the husbandry debate has crossed over into a husbandry argument. I am personally all for a good debate ,but Tyflier and Andrew H seem to be getting a little heated. It's okay to agree to disagree sometimes . I just am seeing more and more threads these past couple of days that have had some form of mini-feud going on.

 

[KillerCami]

I think we can summarize that BPs and corns are different.

They have different requires. Whether this requirements are more difficult or less difficult depends on the individual keepers.

Thus it is important that EVERYONE who wants a snake of either species do their research and ensure they can properly commit to the needs of the animal.

I agree! :dancer:

 

[AndrewH]

So the bottom line, by your own admission, is they can go off feeding...
No spin on it now Andrew.... Read your post and you will admit that going off food is a Bp norm.....

That's right, they can. So can any other snake species in the hobby.

Notice through out my post, I had said 'if'. The only specimens known to go off feed for any type of random occurrence are females weighing in at around 1,000 grams. They go off feed for 3-6 months, and start feeding again without any effect to them. I see no pickiness anywhere. It's part of their development, and fairly well known by now.

I guarantee you I can find just as many 'My corn snake/kingsnake/carpet/milk/blood/insert other species here isn't eating!' threads on the board for the more common species.

Before you try and flip my own post on me, perhaps you should re-read what I say.

 

[AndrewH]

I guarantee you I can find just as many 'My corn snake/kingsnake/carpet/milk/blood/insert other species here isn't eating!' threads on the board for the more common species.

I meant to say boards.

 

[Nanci]

I just am seeing more and more threads these past couple of days that have had some form of mini-feud going on.

This is commonly known as "brumation:" the period between selling off the last of the season's hatchlings and the beginning of a new season of mating. It happens every year. It's like cabin fever, only different.

 

[KillerCami]

This is commonly known as "brumation:" the period between selling off the last of the season's hatchlings and the beginning of a new season of mating. It happens every year. It's like cabin fever, only different.

Lol I hope I don't fall prey to CS member "brumation"

 

[Nitelion94]

Hey Nitelion94,

See what you started by wishing what you wanted. Now you have Cornsnakes and Kingsnakes in the fight also. You also got all the teenagers and college kids mad :argue: at the old people here. I am going to :sidestep: and run out of here before one of you teenagers or college kids catch and set me on fire :flames:.

Love the Fatman :santa:

Haha. I as I said before no more posting what I want on here!!! lol I am saving it for 11:11,Shooting stars,and my wish list for santa!

 

[tyflier]

Wow, dude. Seriously?!?

Facts, eh? Prove them as fact. Show me any part of literature, any and all documentation; anything that proves so.

By your own admission, BPs WILL go off food for extended periods of time. Regardless of the reason for this, it happens. Natural or not, it happens. And it happens with more frequency and for longer periods opf time than my comparative animals.

I don't care what you, specifically, do with your own animals. The fact that a cornsnake can thrive in the wild in New Jersey as well as Florida shows how widely variable their habitat requirements are. Ball pythons do not have NEARLY the natural climatic and habitat variability as cornsnakes and kingsnakes in the L. getula range. That's a simple fact, truly inarguable.

What you define as 'picky' is more a life cycle for these animals. When, and I repeat when they do go off feed, it is for reason. Their body doesn't need at the time. does it mean they are being picky, simply due to the fact that they won't feed that specific time, due to the fact that 'you' would like them to? If they're not losing body weight, and are showing signs they simply don't need any sustenance during that particular time... where's the pickiness? Really....

I know this. Anyone that has kept any number of BPs for any length of time knows this. Does everyone buying a ball python as a first pet snake know this? I can tell you with reasonable certainty that they do not.

Again, whatever the reasoning for their food refusals, they do it more often and for longer periods of time than the comparative animals. That's really not arguable as by your own admission it is true. You just choose to excuse the behavior. That's fine. If it works for you, and you don't mind, that's your perogative. But to say it isn't true is just unethical.

So by your logic, when colubrids go off feed during their cycle for reproduction, or another environmental factor in their life, they're being 'picky'. By your 'standard', around 99% of all species in the industry, if not 100%, are completely picky. Hmmm.

Yup. Anytime any snake in my care goes off it's food, it's being picky. They do it for longer periods of time and far more often than corns and kings. I no longer keep BPs because I have found their trouble, specifically in this department, to be far more than they are worth.

Prove to me that F/T is safer. I don't care what you use, there is a risk to everything. There's a risk to the prey that is thawed, sitting too long and building bacteria, which could in turn harm your animals. There is risk of rodent's not being completely thawed, even if you use the 'pinch' method. If you're not pulling an over kill, and giving your animal a prey item that is too large... there is little to no risk.

Dead mice don't bite. Do you really need proof of that? Dead parasites can't infest a snake's habitat. Do you really need proof of that?

Of all the bites, scratches, scars, blinded eyes, missing eyes, massive infections, stomatitis, and dead snakes I have seen at the teeth and claws of rodents, not one of the rodents was frozen thawed. Please don't tell me you need proof of that.

Let me guess...you're one of those super-humans that is quick enough to get between a rat and the snake when the constricting causes the rat to lash out and bite, right?:shrugs:

Show me the benefits outside of a possible scar that may occur with f/t. Any nutritional benefits, aid in digestion, etc etc? Show me how they are more convenient.

Who cares about nutritional benefits? Isn't living a life free of scarring and the loss of tissue and/or eyes enough for the snake? :shrugs:

I think you simply refuse to accept the fact that they're built differently for different reason. Ball Pythons are specifically built to handle mammalian prey. This is why they have heat pits. If you can't handle feeding off live, don't buy a Ball. Live isn't exactly a hard prey to come by, and most stores have been carrying live prey for how long? 30 years? 40? Frozen prey is just now coming onto the scene, and it hasn't gained too much momentum, comparative to what you believe.

Quite the opposite. In fact, you seem to be the one that thinks they are the same, and have the same level of care requirements.

It is their differences that causes them to be higher maintenance than corns and kings.

Look at how ever many breeders... actual breeders with a collection larger than 30 animals; and tell me exactly how many feed f/t? If convenience is thawing out rodents for 4 hours, going tub to tub, and dangling them due to risk on intestinal impaction from bedding sticking to wet rodents if you lay them down, when I can simply drop a live rat in the snake's cage, and let them do what they're built for.... count me out. I'll stick to live.


Actually, your original posts argued the fact that they were more difficult snakes in general, and how they go off feed. The original argument was that they were
-a expensive
-b picky eaters
-c need spot on temps

Perhaps you should go back and re-read? Corn snakes came onto the scene with your posts. As I've said, this isn't a Corn snake vs. Ball Python thread. It never was.


If you really call buying a live rat, and actually having to use a heat pad more 'intense', you should really re-think your logic here.

You still refuse to accept the fact that, in order to care for any species, you need a basic knowledge of that species. I really don't care if it's a Kingsnake, a Garter, a Burmese Python, etc. Add to that the insult that you're looking at, due to the fact that they do not burmate like colubrids, it's automatically blacklisted as being picky, rather than being a natural part of their life.



And if they own a Corn Snake, they really don't need a lecture about how different they are. They need tips on actual care, husbandry, and medical aspects to better prepare them. You're not here to dissuade them from buying one, and go into buying another Corn. The job here is education. To state that they are, again-
-a expensive
-b picky eaters
-c need spot on temps
Is not helping, nor aid. It's lecturing when on a Corn board, where do any of the Corn Snake breeders stand to give much more than basic information on the species? Point?


And why? Because you had specifically addressed me in the same fashion. Obviously you're not a fan of criticism, and it show's. If you can't argue your point without taking shots, such as calling information nothing more than excuses; you really don't have a leg to stand on.

I want to see these facts as actual facts. As a breeder myself, am I supposed to believe you simply because you say? Or am I to look at actual facts from working first hand with well over what the normal 'keeper' holds in their collection, regarding this species? I think that seems pretty obvious. If I were blowing smoke out of my butt, how have I been so successful in what I do in regards to both husbandry, and reproduction, with this species this long?

Hmm. It seems to me, you're the one all butt hurt over the fact that you jumped in here to debate, yet you have absolutely nothing to really prove your points.



I'll have to look you up sometime

To call information another breeder puts forth, an excuse. It's ignorance. It's a cheap shot trying to win an argument. If it could be turned any which way, your information could be looked at as an excuse in order to promote another species. That would be the more logical view.


I bet it is, yet if it were, you would have understood where the argument first stemmed. Correct? Who would be better to talk Ball Pythons? A Corn Snake breeder or a Ball Python breeder? The original poster did not ask for a comparison. There's no need for one. They stated they want a Ball Python.

I wonder how delicious apples are. I better ask an Orange Grove.

*This is in no way an insult to the Corn Snake keepers here. Just a simple debate.

Whatever, dude.

You have my name. My town is small. Ask anyone "Where's the snake guy?"...you'll find me... Don't bring any excuses...

 

[Daenerys]

I wasn't agreeing with their opinion at all, and I don't think it's 'okay'.
All I'm saying is it's their ignorant opinion so just blow it off, you have to deal with these kind of people everyday. If they're judging you by age, race, gender, etc.

What I ment by "thats their opinion" was more of...
Thats their opinion, let them think that way... Because there are so many people who don't feel that way. They're ignorant yes, and I don't agree with them.

Believe me, if you read the rest of that post... I wasn't agreeing with them at all. I wouldn't be who I am if I didn't own pets when I was younger.

I know you're not agreeing...I'm just not going to ignore it as someone's opinion.

 

[Lennycorn]

Haha. I as I said before no more posting what I want on here!!! lol I am saving it for 11:11,Shooting stars,and my wish list for santa!

Ahhh you are smarter!!

Good move grasshopper. lol

 

[AndrewH]

Wow, dude. Seriously?!?

Yes 'dude', seriously.

By your own admission, BPs WILL go off food for extended periods of time. Regardless of the reason for this, it happens. Natural or not, it happens. And it happens with more frequency and for longer periods opf time than my comparative animals.

By my admission, females will when they reach near adult-hood. That is a proven fact. Now how does this make them picky eaters? That was the argument, wasn't it?...

I don't care what you, specifically, do with your own animals. The fact that a cornsnake can thrive in the wild in New Jersey as well as Florida shows how widely variable their habitat requirements are. Ball pythons do not have NEARLY the natural climatic and habitat variability as cornsnakes and kingsnakes in the L. getula range. That's a simple fact, truly inarguable.

So you've been to the various ranges of Africa, in order to comment on how climatically different their range is, and what they endure in the wild? I would really love to hear.

I know this. Anyone that has kept any number of BPs for any length of time knows this. Does everyone buying a ball python as a first pet snake know this? I can tell you with reasonable certainty that they do not.

If you did know anything, you'd know the general reason why. It seems you only know they 'go off feed'. I've yet to see this picky-ness argument go any further than some animals going off feed.

Again, whatever the reasoning for their food refusals, they do it more often and for longer periods of time than the comparative animals. That's really not arguable as by your own admission it is true. You just choose to excuse the behavior. That's fine. If it works for you, and you don't mind, that's your perogative. But to say it isn't true is just unethical.

Now tell me, as I've said, when said animal goes off feed. The animal doesn't lose weight, and shows no effects from it other than not eating... what harm does it do?

If someone comes to me asking me what to do if their animal does go off feed... what do I do? I help them. If they have questions, I have answers. To call it unethical by any way, shape, or form is a matter of opinion and nothing more. If an animal goes off feed, the reason being is because of that particular animal, and something had to have caused it. If you keep proper temperatures, and so forth, what worry do you have?

Yup. Anytime any snake in my care goes off it's food, it's being picky. They do it for longer periods of time and far more often than corns and kings. I no longer keep BPs because I have found their trouble, specifically in this department, to be far more than they are worth.

Than obviously you don't have the experience necessary to evaluate why. You just know they went off feed. Again, if the animal is losing no body weight and showing no ill effects; it's not being picky. It's doing what it feels best for itself. If you feel otherwise, tough luck. As I've said, this is an animal. It makes it's own decisions, and because it doesn't bow to your schedule doesn't make it a picky eater. It's just not hungry.

Dead mice don't bite. Do you really need proof of that? Dead parasites can't infest a snake's habitat. Do you really need proof of that?

Of all the bites, scratches, scars, blinded eyes, missing eyes, massive infections, stomatitis, and dead snakes I have seen at the teeth and claws of rodents, not one of the rodents was frozen thawed. Please don't tell me you need proof of that.

If that's the case, your doing one of several different things wrong. Wrong prey size, regardless of what you think really comes to mind. Another could be the snake is being kept too cool. The list can go on and on.

Let me guess...you're one of those super-humans that is quick enough to get between a rat and the snake when the constricting causes the rat to lash out and bite, right?:shrugs:

I don't need to. Why? Because I feed properly sized prey items. In 13 years, I've had one problem with live prey. It hopped out of the tub before I could shut it. That's really dangerous :shrugs:

Who cares about nutritional benefits? Isn't living a life free of scarring and the loss of tissue and/or eyes enough for the snake? :shrugs:

When you're caring for a living, breathing animal who's reliant upon your care, you'd better care about nutritional benefit. Along-side that, the snake get's to burn energy that could otherwise lead to problems from just sitting there. Obesity isn't a joke. Especially with breeding animals.

Quite the opposite. In fact, you seem to be the one that thinks they are the same, and have the same level of care requirements.

It is their differences that causes them to be higher maintenance than corns and kings.

Actually, I am the one that could care less about Corn Snakes or King Snakes in this argument. I'm the one looking at the topic at hand. Ball Pythons.

Difficulty and higher maintenance are two different things. I will tell you this. Colubrids are higher maintenance. They defecate/urinate much more often, require more water, more food, and a larger cage than a Ball Python. You can count higher maintenance right out the window.

Whatever, dude.

You have my name. My town is small. Ask anyone "Where's the snake guy?"...you'll find me... Don't bring any excuses...

Will do, dude. As for excuses, you might want to re-look your position in this argument. But keep throwing that low ball in hopes of proving your point. You're getting your point across veeerrrry educationally with it :cheers:

 

[tyflier]

You win, AndrewH.

Ball pythons don't refuse to eat for several months at a time, for any reason, ever. And when they don't do this, owners of these animals don't find it incredibly frustrating, and sometimes difficult to deal with.

They never suffer due to minor temperature and/or humidity requitrements. By "suffer", I mean they never, ever develope upper respiratory infections due to low heat/high humidity, they never suffer from stomatitis due to soaking in black moss soaked aspen, and they never refuse to eat for periods of time due to minor temperature dips. By minor, to be clear, we are talking degree changes of 10-15*, and sometimes less.

And you're absolutely right...no rodent has ever bitten a ball python and caused damage. Rodents don't ever claw or scratch at a snake during constriction, inflicting pain and injury, sometimes popping and/or removing eyes, and often resulting in nerve damage.

Wow. I can't believe I even tried to have a rational discussion with such clean, clear, and accurate information being given to me free of charge...

**Yes, AndrewH, this is sarcasm...

 

[Haarstad]

Hey Nitelion94,

See what you started by wishing what you wanted. Now you have Cornsnakes and Kingsnakes in the fight also. You also got all the teenagers and college kids mad :argue: at the old people here. I am going to :sidestep: and run out of here before one of you teenagers or college kids catch and set me on fire :flames:.

Love the Fatman :santa:

:laugh01: You just summed up twenty-something pages of posts in 3 lines lol

Congrats

 

[AndrewH]

You win, AndrewH.

Ball pythons don't refuse to eat for several months at a time, for any reason, ever. And when they don't do this, owners of these animals don't find it incredibly frustrating, and sometimes difficult to deal with.

They never suffer due to minor temperature and/or humidity requitrements. By "suffer", I mean they never, ever develope upper respiratory infections due to low heat/high humidity, they never suffer from stomatitis due to soaking in black moss soaked aspen, and they never refuse to eat for periods of time due to minor temperature dips. By minor, to be clear, we are talking degree changes of 10-15*, and sometimes less.

And you're absolutely right...no rodent has ever bitten a ball python and caused damage. Rodents don't ever claw or scratch at a snake during constriction, inflicting pain and injury, sometimes popping and/or removing eyes, and often resulting in nerve damage.

Wow. I can't believe I even tried to have a rational discussion with such clean, clear, and accurate information being given to me free of charge...

**Yes, AndrewH, this is sarcasm...

Yet, a reply like this is why you will never get across clearly, nor look any bit of professional about what you say/do. Sarcasm really shows maturity, as well as taking someone's post and turning into an assumption, looking at it in too general a manor.

A rational discussion is one thing. When you come in, gun's a slinging, insulting others (as well as their information they've built through experience), and taking pot shots, don't be surprised if you get your feelings hurt, or your bum's a little sore afterward's.

What's funny is you can take that same reply in the tone your applying; and apply it to about any species, lizards included. Who'da thunk it? :shrugs:

But what can I say dude. Don't whine when you get all butt hurt.

 

[tyflier]

Yet, a reply like this is why you will never get across clearly, nor look any bit of professional about what you say/do. Sarcasm really shows maturity, as well as taking someone's post and turning into an assumption, looking at it in too general a manor.

A rational discussion is one thing. When you come in, gun's a slinging, insulting others (as well as their information they've built through experience), and taking pot shots, don't be surprised if you get your feelings hurt, or your bum's a little sore afterward's.

What's funny is you can take that same reply in the tone your applying; and apply it to about any species, lizards included. Who'da thunk it? :shrugs:

But what can I say dude. Don't whine when you get all butt hurt.

Dude, do you even read the posts you quote and argue with?

My initial post was aimed at no one in particular, just at things I read. I made it clear that comparatively speaking, BPs are much higher maintenance than corns and kings. I specifically said that "compared to corns and kings". Go back and check, if you'd like. I'll wait for you...

I also specifically addressed a point someone made regarding how BPs are able to survive temperature extremes in the wild, with what I thought was very well known information regarding the natural habits of ball pythons. Someone made a statement implying that BPs couldn't be as as sensitive as they were made out to be because otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive the wild. I addressed this as ludicrous, because I believe that to be the case. I stated why using well-documented behaviors of ball pythons in the wild.

It was all fun and games until you threatened me. You made it person, dude...

Before you get all excited over yourself...I'm not some young, dumb, first-time snake owner taking a semester off from college. You can neither intimidate me with excuses, nor confuse me with big words...

 

[AndrewH]

Dude, do you even read the posts you quote and argue with?

My initial post was aimed at no one in particular, just at things I read. I made it clear that comparatively speaking, BPs are much higher maintenance than corns and kings. I specifically said that "compared to corns and kings". Go back and check, if you'd like. I'll wait for you...

I also specifically addressed a point someone made regarding how BPs are able to survive temperature extremes in the wild, with what I thought was very well known information regarding the natural habits of ball pythons. Someone made a statement implying that BPs couldn't be as as sensitive as they were made out to be because otherwise they wouldn't be able to survive the wild. I addressed this as ludicrous, because I believe that to be the case. I stated why using well-documented behaviors of ball pythons in the wild.

It was all fun and games until you threatened me. You made it person, dude...

Before you get all excited over yourself...I'm not some young, dumb, first-time snake owner taking a semester off from college. You can neither intimidate me with excuses, nor confuse me with big words...

Dude, you really need to re-think what you post. Your first post, and that first post, targeted at me, as I quote...

Someone claiming to be incredibly knowledgeable asked how they survive in the wild if they are that sensitive....

That's a shot at me, no matter which way the coin lands. As I've said, you came in guns a slinging, and got butt hurt due to your own ignorance. Afterwards,you call my information an excuse. For someone claiming innocence, you're far from it.

As I look at it, it was a fun debate. Once insults were thrown, it became more. As far as a threat. Take that any which way you want, but you have exactly no proof on this threat. I simply said that you and me are going to have some problems if you insult my information again. We have a problem here, don't we?

As I've said, Ball Pythons are far from higher maintenance than Corns or Kings. They might require different care, but far from higher maintenance. They defecate/urinate more, require more water, more food, more space. I really fail to see how them defecating/urinating less, requiring less water, requiring less food, and requiring less space due to active nature makes them a higher maintenance animal. Boggling...

Answer me this. If Corn Snakes and King Snakes are as great an eater as you push, where did the techniques come from on scenting, braining, sticking them in a smaller container to 'find' food, etc come from? I can tell you it wasn't the Ball Python market, and I can tell you none of those are used for Ball Pythons.

I love how you keep using the word excuse. As far as I can tell, the only one coming up with excuses, especially after a failure to defend their information, is you.

Tough love's better than no love, right? :shrugs:

 

[AndrewH]

They defecate/urinate more, require more water, more food, more space. I really fail to see how them defecating/urinating less, requiring less water, requiring less food, and requiring less space due to active nature makes them a higher maintenance animal. Boggling...

This was supposed to read Corn Snakes and King Snakes defecate/urinate more...

And I really fail to see how Ball Pythons defecating/urinating...

 

[VickyChaiTea]

Prove to me that F/T is safer.

It is more dangerous, even if you DON'T leave the rat in all night, and you watch the snake. You ARE putting your snakes life at risk. You are putting it at risks that it does NOT face if you feed frozen/thawed or freshly killed. Period.

Yes, there are some very small risks involved with feeding frozen/thawed. But these are almost never life threatening and extremely uncommon, unlike being bitten by live prey. YOU may not have had any bad experiences with it, but you and your snakes are lucky.

Then there is the moral issue of feeding live. If a snake takes prekilled foods and you feed live, you are being cruel. You are intentionally killing an animal in an excruciatingly painful way for no good reason. Would it be ok to eat a rabbit alive? Why don't you go beat/kill your own cow. By your logic, that would be better. Go eat a live chicken. Better yet, go squeeze it until it dies. See how much you like feeding live then.

Ball pythons can sometimes go off feed. This is a fact. It is usually ok and does not negatively effect the snake. They have different care requirements than corn snakes. They can be more expensive. Does this mean if you get a ball as your first snake it would be a bad decision? No way. Does it make them difficult to care for? No. Does it make them inferior? No. I don't see what you're so upset about, really.

 

[AndrewH]

It is more dangerous, even if you DON'T leave the rat in all night, and you watch the snake. You ARE putting your snakes life at risk. You are putting it at risks that it does NOT face if you feed frozen/thawed or freshly killed. Period.

If, and I repeat, if you feed an improperly sized item, as well as use improper method, it could be dangerous. But that's the thing. Could be.

Now let's dissect that image. The snake in that image is extremely underweight, and dehydrated. Look at the spine, and how narrow/skinny the head of the animal is. Probable symptoms of a wild caught or captive hatched animal. Add to that the reluctant nature of wc or ch animals to feed on domesticated rodents, as well as the fact that the animal in that picture was obviously left in with the prey item for well over a day for that type of damage to occur, and you have yourself an improper way of feeding. I can tell you 3 things about that image.

1) The rat was way too large. Especially to do that kind of damage.

2)The animal is underweight, dehydrated and it possibly has some type of internal parasite. Animal's just don't drop weight that quickly, or dehydrate that quickly from injury, unless burned... and with burns, it may effect hydration.

3)That rat was, hands down, left in that cage for at least 24 hours, if not a good 48 to 72 hours.

That picture's been around a long time, and has been debated upon numerous times on various Python forums. It happened during the Ball Python boom, when wild caught and farmed animals were more common than captive bred animals. Chances of that animal being wild caught or farmed are significantly high.

Here is a healthy normal to compare it to, weight and build wise. This animal should be roughly the same size, length wise, judging by the head, and over-all appearance.

What you see in the picture with the chewed up animal is not the risk of feeding live prey, but a case of neglect and ignorance.

These animals are built to take a nibble, or scratch with ease, and without any type of scarification, or damage showing. Now if you put in an intimidating prey size, along with using improper methods, and leave the rodent in too long and what do you have? Failure.

Yes, there are some very small risks involved with feeding frozen/thawed. But these are almost never life threatening and extremely uncommon, unlike being bitten by live prey. YOU may not have had any bad experiences with it, but you and your snakes are lucky.

I wouldn't call it luck. 13 years and how many animals? That's a little too coincidental for luck. What about other breeders? NERD, VPI, Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks, etc? They feed live as well. Hm. I can say the only person I know of, or talk to that doesn't feed live is Kathy.

There are just as large a risk with f/t. If a prey animal is not properly thawed out, what happens? The animal cannot properly digest said prey item. What happens if bedding clumps to the prey item? Well you will probably wind up with a case of impaction. What happens to the certain proteins, amino acids, and nutritional damage that is caused during the freezing process?

Then there is the moral issue of feeding live. If a snake takes prekilled foods and you feed live, you are being cruel. You are intentionally killing an animal in an excruciatingly painful way for no good reason. Would it be ok to eat a rabbit alive? Why don't you go beat/kill your own cow. By your logic, that would be better. Go eat a live chicken. Better yet, go squeeze it until it dies. See how much you like feeding live then.

And unfortunately, by your logic, you're way off. Rodent euthanasia takes roughly around 2-3 minutes total to ensure the rodent is indeed dead. Do you know how long it takes for a Ball Python to kill it's prey? Roughly 5 to 15 seconds. They don't die due to asphyxiation, as much as you'd like to believe. Pressure is put on the chest cavity, and the heart is stopped. It's not being cruel. It's giving the animal what it was designed to take.

Now take onto that the pain caused by CO2 euthanasia, as well as a prolonged death vs being killed by the python, and what do you have? No comparison. Those prey animals euthanised with CO2 struggle, kick, and panic. Take into effect the possibilities of carbonic acid developing in the nose as a result of the CO2 dissolving in the mucus moisture.

It's really like comparing death by drowning, vs death from a quick blow. Drowning is relatively painless. At the same time, it's not.

I have killed animals. I am a hunter. It's a part of the natural order. Prey are eaten by predators.

The fact that it boils down to is dying sucks, and regardless of how much it sucks, the rats die in order to feed our snakes.

Ball pythons can sometimes go off feed. This is a fact. It is usually ok and does not negatively effect the snake. They have different care requirements than corn snakes. They can be more expensive. Does this mean if you get a ball as your first snake it would be a bad decision? No way. Does it make them difficult to care for? No. Does it make them inferior? No. I don't see what you're so upset about, really.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read. It's been stated several times.

Yes they can go off feed. So can any other snake. They can also be expensive, sure. But that's not what was claimed. What was claimed is that they are expensive, are picky, and require precise husbandry. This is where my debate comes from.