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Toffee...another dominant trait?!

I believe you can see the one or other "hybrid" marker in nearly 75% of all corns. some have bigger eyes, others have strange saddles, there are snakes which stay thin for a life time and others are stocky (such as my tessera from Don). I also believe there is always someone who see such things in new stuff.

Nevertheless, I believe we Germans are pretty sensitive with hybrid stuff, there are really much people who won't buy anything when there is something strange. I've seen the Toffees and Auratum Striped with my eyes and they look nothing like hybrids or stuff like that. especially Sabine Bergmann and Marcel Woyack should have noticed something, both breeders have years of experience and keep a jealous watch over their stock.

Imho these animals are pure corns, no more, no less.

I believe Frank Schaub hatched ultramel toffees this season?! I'm not sure, he just talked at the phone about some weird orange hatchlings. I'll visit him in about 5 weeks or so and take some pics. Be patient, I'll bring that pics asap.
 
I was thinking, have you actually replied to my thread about my new trait? :p hehe...

I do like the auratum stripe the most, it looks fruity!
 
Im all about "Hybrids" i dont care how new morphs come about being, not that im saying Toffee is hybrid! I was just saying that the one snake pic looks like a Rat snake to me. Cant wait to see some pics!
 
Maybee this is the look in ultramel
Its from Orange het lavender x Ultramel het lavender made in 2009
 

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It's very sad that EVERYTIME something new comes along the hybrid crap gets brought up!
 
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I absolutely love this! The color is so much richer than caramels, and I really like the reduction in black. What a beauty, and dominant traits are so cool :D
 
At this time there is a debate in germany about Buf and Toffee .( is it the same ore isn't it , and is it good to make two names for maybee one and the same ? )
Buf is found in 2001 and is the first dominant cornsnake gene, and disscussed almost 10 years now.
Toffee is about 2007 i belief.
Both are dominant lookelike born in about 200 km from eatchother.
And what me surpsised is the wow factor!
Here some pics from holland made yesterday.The rest is on my page.
 

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I don't see anywhere that anyone said "That is a a hybrid". As a personal observation, I see that the Auratum has a similiar appearance in colour to a creamsicle, so I'm not impressed by its colour, since a similiar colouration already exists. There was another observation that the hatchling had a rat snake appearance. Well, corns are ratsnakes. There was no finger pointing. I've seen aneries that look like Emoryi's, but I know they're corns. So let's not get into a debate or argument about anyone calling the Toffees hybrids. They aren't and we should be more focused on what these new genes mean to the cornsnake world.
 
I have to apologize, it's the language barrier...I got that wrong.

dionythicus said:
So let's not get into a debate or argument about anyone calling the Toffees hybrids. They aren't and we should be more focused on what these new genes mean to the cornsnake world.
Click to expand...

Well spoken, I second that.
 
no020m.jpg


no021f.jpg


:shrugs:
D80
 
dionythicus said:
I don't see anywhere that anyone said "That is a a hybrid". As a personal observation, I see that the Auratum has a similiar appearance in colour to a creamsicle, so I'm not impressed by its colour, since a similiar colouration already exists. There was another observation that the hatchling had a rat snake appearance. Well, corns are ratsnakes. There was no finger pointing. I've seen aneries that look like Emoryi's, but I know they're corns. So let's not get into a debate or argument about anyone calling the Toffees hybrids. They aren't and we should be more focused on what these new genes mean to the cornsnake world.
Click to expand...

Very true i NEVER said it was a hybrid. I just said the snake in the second pic looks like a rat snake to me. Much love! Now about those ultra pics!!?
 
Definatley looks similar, but I believe these animals are not the same. Toffee's start like caramels, but with a different colouration between the saddles. Of course, it's also kind of yellow - but it's a weird "orangeyellow" and really looks different. Some Toffee hatchlings look like a mix of normal and caramel, very brown with a weird hint of red/orange. In 3 weeks or so, there is another Toffee clutch hatching. There sould some Toffeebloods pop up, breeding was Toffee het caramel anery amel striped blood x blood ph anery (piedsided lineage). We try to delete the caramel gene from Toffee, because THAT mixture is REALLY confusing. try to seperate caramels from toffee (possible but hard work!) and these from the toffeecaramels? It's a mess...

and then do a testbreeding if the toffee ist het caramel. there WILL something caramellooking pop up - is it Toffee or Caramel? The fact that caramel is present in that lineage doesn't make things easier and that's the reason why it took so long to isolate the Toffee trait. Who thinks about something weird when you breed "caramel" striped to caramel and "caramel" pops up?!
 
JimGERcream said:
Of course, it's also kind of yellow - but it's a weird "orangeyellow" and really looks different. Some Toffee hatchlings look like a mix of normal and caramel, very brown with a weird hint of red/orange.
Click to expand...
That's why I posted the picture of those two snakes. Their bellys are extremely yellow. They have no Caramel in their heritage either. (They appear to have everything else, but that's a different story!) They also have no black borders on their saddles just like your presented Toffee's. They are the only two I have left that are breeders, but I did keep some hatchlings last season and they are proving to have the same coloration, along with the yellow, and no borders on the saddles.

:shrugs:
D80
 
Interesting! I would pair them to something normal without hets - at least to something which only should produce normals. You should see it very good in the results if something's going on!

Your's look more reddish than brownish, that's the reason why I think they aren't something like our Toffees - but it could very well be the camera :shrugs: All the Toffee's I know look definately more brownish than reddish. But there isn't much variety in that lineage yet, maybe that feature changes when its outcrossed a few times :shrugs:
 
JimGERcream said:
Interesting! I would pair them to something normal without hets - at least to something which only should produce normals. You should see it very good in the results if something's going on!
Click to expand...
I don't really have plans to explore that avenue at this point. They are my Charcoal Stripe producing pair and quite honestly I don't have anything without hets to pair the male up with to explore that kind of project. Quite simply what I am seeing is a non-black-bordered Normal. Maybe it's removes the black border? Maybe it adds yellow? I don't know but it's not something that has made me say WOW more than the Charcoal Stripes they produce!! Of course if somebody else wanted to work with some hatchlings from this pair make me an offer on a group of babies!! ;)

JimGERcream said:
Your's look more reddish than brownish, that's the reason why I think they aren't something like our Toffees -
Click to expand...
They are more reddish than brown.

Thanks for the comments.

D80
 
JimGERcream said:
Correct.

A codominant trait shows one phenotype in het form and another phentype in hom. form - the so called "super form".

A dominant trait shows the same phenotype in het. and in hom. form., no visible superform.

Toffee x Toffee is done and there wasn't anything else than Toffees and other regular colour morphs in the clutch, so I assume it's dominant and not codominant. Genetically it acts pretty similar to tessera. Breed it to what you want, you always get the Toffee phenotype in first generation.
Click to expand...

Is there predictable breeding results?

If Toffee is a dominant trait then:
- If you breed het Toffee X normal then you get close to:
50 % het Toffee + 50 % normal.
- If you breed het Toffee X het Toffee then you will get:
50 % het Toffee, 25 % homo Toffee, 25 % normals/others.
(That is close to 75 % Toffees)
- If you breed homo Toffe X het Toffee then you will get:
50 % Homo Toffee + 50 % het Toffee.
(All 100 % look like Toffee)

Do Toffees give breeding results like they should if they are dominant?

/ Niklas
 
yeah... actually we "only" have "het. toffees" in our stocks.
but those breeding results are shown in all clutches.
 
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