Toffee...another dominant trait?!

[JimGERcream]

That makes it more interesting for sure.

Pictures of the clutch and/or individuals?

Thanks again,
D80

Unfortunately no...but maybe Thorsten is willing to take some. Nevertheless he took some example shots of the differences...

All pics taken by Thorsten Grassner:

Toffee het Anery Caramel Bloodres Striped x F1 WC Jasper County locality

father
http://www.pimbura.de/resources/auratummann4.jpg
mother
http://www.pimbura.de/resources/_wsb_630x419_wf2.jpg

and here is a comparison of Toffees from different clutches:

One Toffee from Toffee het Anery Caramel Bloodres Striped x F1 WC Jasper County locality and another one from Toffee het Anery Caramel Bloodred Striped x Amel het Caramel Bloodred Striped, same father but different mother. both individuals show exactly the same phenotype.

 

[slangenbroed]

I'm not asking about buf thank you very much.

I am looking forward to the clutch pictures from the breeding to an unrelated animal that is also not Caramel.

Thanks,
D80

Sorry D80 this are your words

I have followed this from the beginning. I have questioned. I have poked and prodded. I have privately pm'ed slangenbroad. I have attempted to wrap my head around things. The one, logical, common sense pairing that was suggested 5 years ago was to breed a buf to a homo Caramel animal. It has NOT been done by slangenbroad and he made it very clear he had no intention of doing it. At this point, just because charles prints it in his book doesn't make it so. I'm not calling charles a liar. I'm pointing out that every buf discussion that has been had at this site and others does not include a conclusive breeding between a buf and homo caramel animal in order to rule out that the buf is het (or even homo) caramel. Period.

D80

Why no command even not in the other topics ??:sidestep:

 

[Drizzt80]

Unfortunately no...but maybe Thorsten is willing to take some. Nevertheless he took some example shots of the differences...

I hope he is able to take those shots of the unrelated and not Caramel pairing. Unless I'm reading the descriptions wrong, the example shots he has shown still have Caramel and suspected toffee involved correct?

Thanks,
D80

 

[Drizzt80]

Why no command even not in the other topics ??

Let me repeat myself. I'm not asking about buf. I don't care about buf. I have zero interest in buf. It's rude for you to be interjecting buf into this thread. Have a nice day.

Thanks,
D80

 

[Ssthisto]

If you breed two Toffees and get about 75 % phenotype Toffee offspring, then both parents are hets.
(Offspring is 50% het Toffee, 25 % homo Toffee, 25 % normal/others.)

If you breed (one or) two Toffees and get 100 % Toffee offspring then (the one or) one of the parents are homozygous.

Breeding two Toffees and getting 100% Toffee could just be the odds gods being generous - the real test is "Toffee to non-toffee". If one Toffee animal consistently produces all Toffee babies and zero non-toffee babies when bred to normal non-toffee animals, it can then reasonably be considered homozygous Toffee.

Toffee to Toffee = all Toffee would have to be assumed to be "good luck" first (since the odds are higher per-egg that you'll get Toffees) and even if one or both was homozygous, you wouldn't know which until you crossed to a non-toffee animal and produced all Toffee.

 

[JimGERcream]

I hope he is able to take those shots of the unrelated and not Caramel pairing. Unless I'm reading the descriptions wrong, the example shots he has shown still have Caramel and suspected toffee involved correct?

Thanks,
D80

The example shots are shots of Normal ph Anery Caramel Bloodred Striped vs. Toffee ph Anery Caramel Bloodred Striped (all poss hets from daddy: Toffee het Anery Caramel Bloodred Striped). Since Toffee was detected in a Caramel line, all first Toffees - at least all Toffees we detected - were at least het for caramel. The offspring of this year migh be the first Toffees without het Caramel. Since all Toffees which were produced this year are at least 50% poss het Caramel, it's a real mess to figure out which one is het and which one is not. Fortunately, you CAN see differences between Caramel and Toffee in same clutch.

To sum up, I can say we try to delete Caramel from this lineage as soon as possible, at the moment there is no known Toffee which is not at least 50% poss het Caramel.

...I hope I didn't tie you up in knots

 

[slangenbroed]

Let me repeat myself. I'm not asking about buf. I don't care about buf. I have zero interest in buf. It's rude for you to be interjecting buf into this thread. Have a nice day.

Thanks,
D80

It is not rude to be interjecting buf into this thread, as if they said with own words, it could be the same.Its looks like, its born 200 km from each other
, both are dominant ect ect.
What do i think from you " Big mouth and no balls "
You are the one wo was shout , do this , do that, i said ect ect.And now i asking for commend, i got that answer.uke02:uke02:uke02:

 

[Drizzt80]

at least all Toffees we detected - were at least het for caramel. The offspring of this year migh be the first Toffees without het Caramel. Since all Toffees which were produced this year are at least 50% poss het Caramel, it's a real mess to figure out which one is het and which one is not. Fortunately, you CAN see differences between Caramel and Toffee in same clutch.

To sum up, I can say we try to delete Caramel from this lineage as soon as possible, at the moment there is no known Toffee which is not at least 50% poss het Caramel.

...I hope I didn't tie you up in knots

No knots at all. I just figure that still having Caramel floating around could cause a color difference even in het form while the lack of borders and color difference could be a line bred or locality influence. The pair I shared earlier throws hatchlings that I can easily discern from other Normal hatchlings, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's recesseve/dominant at this point. Miami's would be another example of this. If it's truly genetic based, as in recessive/dominant and not polygenic, then cutting out the potential Caramel influence and breeding to unrelated will help show/prove that. Of course this is all because the affect isn't all that striking or too different from what a Normal corns color variation can be, but at the same time the differences you are seeing are a lot more striking than several other declared genes.

Thanks for continued clarification,
D80

 

[JimGERcream]

I totally agree with you. The fact that Caramel is floating around in the Toffee lineage is an argumentation problem, I've already noticed this case. Everyone COULD say "Hey, since the Toffee father is het caramel, 50% of his offspring should be het caramel too, so that would explain the different look.".

The fact that Toffees doesn't look VERY different to normals as hatchlings is problematic too and I could very well understand when people doesn't believe in Toffee.

BUT:
The Toffee adults - which are proven NOT hom. caramel - certainly look nothing like normals. Meanwhile here in Germany a lot of breeders with much experience work with Toffee and everyone of them is sure it's something new. I can swear in this case, the wish is NOT father to the thought and I'm pretty sure every sceptic would change his mind when he raises a Toffee hatchling up to adult. Maybe a Hypo Toffee or Sunkissed Toffee looks more different to the knowen morphs, we work on that and will share the results.

FYI Marcel Woyack took a very good comparison pic of Caramel Blood vs. Toffee Blood. I think the differences are more visible when you see them both on one pic.

Caramelblood is brighter (left), Toffeeblood is darker with much more groundcolour (right) - both are yearlings

 

[chris68]

No knots at all. I just figure that still having Caramel floating around could cause a color difference even in het form while the lack of borders and color difference could be a line bred or locality influence...

I think this is why there has been a clamor to completely separate caramel from both the buf line and the toffee line. I know there's a difference of opinion on whether or not het caramels are visibly distinct from no-het caramels, but until folks see toffee's (and bufs) that are proven caramel-free they are going to be skeptical...

 

[JimGERcream]

As I said, I very well understand that. Unfortunately Caramel was in that lineage from beginning, it will take some time to delete the caramel gene from that lineage - but I'd bet every sum of money that Toffees, which are proven "caramel-free", won't look different.

I'll keep you posted. :cheers:

 

[ThorstenG]

Thanks for your explanations, Jim! :cheers:

 

[JimGERcream]

Thanks for your explanations, Jim! :cheers:

hahaha thanks Thorsten, I do my best. Now leave us, go into your funroom and take some pics of all your offspring from Toffee x Normal

 

[Outcast]

That Toffee Blood is amazing...

 

[slangenbroed]

I think this is why there has been a clamor to completely separate caramel from both the buf line and the toffee line. I know there's a difference of opinion on whether or not het caramels are visibly distinct from no-het caramels, but until folks see toffee's (and bufs) that are proven caramel-free they are going to be skeptical...

That is done in buf from 2006 until now in different lines,( in Lavender-ultramel-phantom-mandarin )look at www.slangenbroed.nl klik buf then the little book right.
And at that time People D80 for instance shouting "you must do the breeding with caramel, and al your done ist waist of time , until that is not done nothing is proved ect ect ", and now he says get rid of the caramel gene soon as posible. I said that in the german forum several times, to put the caramel out of the game, they look is to close.And that could be a problem to see wat is the new gene ore caramel ore both.
But who am i experiance in this mather for more than 10 years.:laugh:

 

[Hillybean]

Okay, so I spent some time today reading thread, and I have a couple of questions.

Why has no one in the US tried to import some of these? I thought many reptiles can still be imported, its just critters that can't.... Is there not a few breeders willing to front up the money for an unproven project? or what is the deal?

Sorry, not trying to go OT..just curious as to why no one has yet to get these into the states.

 

[Tara80]

I'm sure many people are with me here, but I knew nothing about Toffee until this thread.
Also, since the coloration looks similar to a normal, it might be difficult to find someone willing to spend the money shipping them over here.

As for Buf, I believe Chuck and Connie have a few and are currently test breeding.

 

[JimGERcream]

Why has no one in the US tried to import some of these?

That's easy to answer: Toffee is proven this year first - why should anyone import something when he/she doesn't have a hint of knowledge that it's existing? Look on the date of this topic, it's the first time we shared the breeding results "worldwide" and not just in our german forums. Long story short - this year is the very first year, these animals are available as "Toffee" and not as "weird caramels which don't produce 100% caramels when bred to a regular caramel", everyone, who's interested and who's able to organize shipping from Hamm show to the States, has the possibility to get some. Just keep your eyes open, bennihc should hatch some neat stuff during next week. I'd bet he has some available for the people who like to take part in this.

Also, since the coloration looks similar to a normal

I'm sorry Tara but that's not true. The hatchlings look "similar" to normals but they do differ. adult, they look nothing like normals and I believe the adult look is much more important for a morph than the hatchling look. :shrugs:

I'm pretty happy there's so much interest in the Toffee thing. Of course, there are sceptics but that's no problem I think. There will be caramelfree Toffees in the future, that might satisfy them. Nobody has to like every morph, since I don't like every morph either, but it's pretty nice to see the approval is better than expected. I do believe in Toffee and everything I've written in this topic and it's really nice to see that here are much people who are open-minded for this. :wavey:

 

[Tara80]

Oh, I really like them and they are different than normals - I totally agree. My intent was to say that they are subtle in color, they are not 'loud'. They aren't something that is going to drastically alter morph combinations - at least to where people might jump on them right away. That's all.
That being said, I would actually LOVE one, if I could get one!

 

[JimGERcream]

ah ok I got you wrong thanks for the explanation, the language barrier causes much more missconceptions than I prefer