this is photoshopped right ?!?!

[Rich Z]

Yes, and while over there you could have also gotten a few more genuinely authentic milksnake subspecies imported here to the states. As there are precious few uncompromised Latin American subspecies left in the hobby now. There are definitely a small number of them to be had if one knows the right sources, but not many. And there are a few types that there are absolutely NONE of here at all. By the same token though, that is what makes the ones that ARE still very authentic so highly revered and sought after by a few of us hardcore milksnake buffs :dancer:

Anyway, I didn't mean to steer off-topic, .........just sayin' :grin01:

BTW, the lone killer L.t. nelsoni specimen I got from you back in 1995 in Ft. Lauderdale at the "Fern Forest" show was one of THE nicest "textbook" specimens there was in the hobby before they were even much known by most hobbyists just before the rush to produce amel nelsoni and get more crossed into the far more commonly kept Sinaloan's in the hobby. Now good examples are harder to find, and there are far more crossed intermediates in today's hobby. That and most people not knowing the key meristic characteristics between the two anyway are the reasons for this. But heck, it isn't any different than most other colubrids in the hobby now. There is more hybrids and man-made crosses today than anyone could possibly shake a stick at. Pretty disappointing to me and many others, but that is just how it is now and actually makes some of the real examples of things still left un-tainted the truly rare stuff now.....:shrugs:



cheers, ~Doug

Yeah, I hear you... I was once pretty heavy into the neotropical triangulums, and spent a LOT of time researching the various subspecies identified. I came to the conclusion that it was a fool's errand to try to get REAL locality specimen. I talked to several importers who let on that they would get batches of milk snakes from any particular country that was allowing exports at that time, and were collected all over Central America. When they hit the shores of the USA, people would pick through all those imports and apply labels on them based merely on what they LOOKED like without having and actual locality data at all. To make matters worse, reading what official descriptions existing of the milk snakes pretty much just made matters worse. There was so much overlap in identifying features that you really might just as well do what those importers were doing, as the results would be the same. Heck, how many people remember that the original albino Hondurans were REALLY first called albino Central American Milk Snakes (L.t. polyzona)? Heck I remember talking to a guy one year who was selling aberrantly patterned Sinaloans that next year magically became Nelson's milks after the albino Nelson's hit the streets...

That's about the time that I decided to get out of the triangulums....

 

[DMong]

Yeah, I hear you... I was once pretty heavy into the neotropical triangulums, and spent a LOT of time researching the various subspecies identified. I came to the conclusion that it was a fool's errand to try to get REAL locality specimen. I talked to several importers who let on that they would get batches of milk snakes from any particular country that was allowing exports at that time, and were collected all over Central America. When they hit the shores of the USA, people would pick through all those imports and apply labels on them based merely on what they LOOKED like without having and actual locality data at all. To make matters worse, reading what official descriptions existing of the milk snakes pretty much just made matters worse. There was so much overlap in identifying features that you really might just as well do what those importers were doing, as the results would be the same. Heck, how many people remember that the original albino Hondurans were REALLY first called albino Central American Milk Snakes (L.t. polyzona)? Heck I remember talking to a guy one year who was selling aberrantly patterned Sinaloans that next year magically became Nelson's milks after the albino Nelson's hit the streets...

That's about the time that I decided to get out of the triangulums....

LOL!!, yep!,.......all very true indeed Rich. I definitely remember you were delving into some of these Latin American types years ago. And just as you stated, there has historically been so much confusion on what is really what, and from where it is ridiculous. I have all sorts of milksnake books here, including Kenneth Williams ~"Systematics". Every SINGLE milksnake book I own has grossly misrepresented taxon where the caption depicts a very specific subspecies..LOL!. Pure polyzona represented as abnorma, stuarti as micropholis(Scott Ballard's photo in Markel's and others, oligozona being represented as genuine when they are not even close and are Selina Cruz intergrades, allegedly pure micropholis that are Popayan intermediate intergrades from intermediate elevation, and on and on and on. I explain alot of the "hobby Honduran" thing you mentioned on my website too, and they have been all screwed up with the exception of only a couple genuine lines I know in theis country for several decades now.

back in 1995 I even bought a pair of genuine abnorma as polyzona from a guy. It wasn't until many years later that I now have a much better handle on what is what. Every single person I know went through these very same things we a re talking about too. Shannon Brown also had all sorts of stuff years ago that he "thought" was something else altogether, and he too got more familiar with those subspecies since then too. Some of it fasr too late I might also add too, because he let the only genuine Dixon's milksnakes slip throu his hands back in 1992 when he saw a text-book 2.2 pair offered at a show in San Diego from an importer from England. He then walked around thinking about getting them, but was thinking they had alot of dark pigment cross-overs, and was going to wait until he saw some "prettier" specimens later on. Well. unfortunately for the hobby, by the time he thought about it more and DID get back to the guy's table, he saw them being all bought by ANOTHER European importer/exporter, and were never seen again in this country to this day!..LOL!. We have had our "feelers" out in Europe for them too but have all but vanished. This was now 17 plus years ago...arrrrgh!

Luckily for me, over the more recent years I have studied into these subspecies much deeper than in some years past and have finally gotten much more knowledge regarding the different Latin America forms. As we both know though, when lack of origin/history and the real source isn't known, as well as any possible intergradation is in the equation, as WELL as some individual variation, it can certainly toss HUGE wrench into knowing what they really are at all!!..HAHAA!!

Live and learn as they say..LOL!, I am just glad I know what I know about them now, but sure as hell wished it didn't take so long, to learn this because I have had some killer genuine stuff slip by me over the years just like everyone else has. One sad example would of course be the best L.t. oligozona ever seen in this hobby that were originally imported as Stuarti, and the female had eggs just prior to dying. I then hatched them and always knew they weren't stuarti, but still wasn't sure back then. Well, in more recent years it turns out they were actually real-deal L,t.oligozona and ALL of them keyed-out 100% in every single meristic feature and were identical to some very authentic locality-specific specimens that were preserved in museum that my herpetologist buddy of mine located. He also specializes in Latin America triangulum, and went and studied these and sent me photos of the specimens......some years back when I saw these preserved specimens he found, both of our jaws dropped to the floor as we both realized I actually had some of the nicest, lowest RBR count oligozona specimens ever known to exist in this country..."sigh* . I have been kickin myself ever since then too. All of this stuff I mentioned, as well as all the other peoples stuff back in the day was sold years ago and has no DOUBT been melted into the "hobby Hondo" melting pot we have today.

Oh well, at least I do have some nice stuff here now, and within another month or two will have a pair of some of the sweetest, most authentic, locatity-specific L.t.abnorma known to exist in this country that originate from import parents originating from central Guatemala. I know this person very well personally, saw photos of all the parent lineage, and the hatchlings themselves and they just don't get any nicer or genuine....YIPPPEEE!!!!!!

You will LOVE seeing these things later on Rich. They are some of the very nicest genuine locality-specific abnorma existing anywhere in the world. They are also identical to a biologist breeder I know of in Brazil that also has some killer authentic specimens. They are indeed carbon copies in every single meristic feature :grin01:

 

[Susan]

Well...word on the street is corns are the next big bucks craze...maybe you outta get those pictures back out! LOL

What street have you been walking on as I would LOVE to see some of those big bucks?!

 

[dave partington]

Kinda makes you miss the good ol' annual Frank L Slavens publication.

 

[Rich Z]

Heck, I can't remember now where I saw the photograph, but there was supposedly a strain of Sinaloan milks that came from the Tres Maria (?) Islands off of Mexico that I REALLY lusted after. They were unusual in that that had VERY broad white bands, and in my eyes absolutely gorgeous looking. Of course, I never found anyone who had even seen one in person, much less have them available. Of course, that could have just been an aberrant individual for all I really knew. Stuff like that does happen. I've got the original writeup on the Outer Banks king snake (sticticeps) around here somewhere, and that entire description of a new subspecies was based on a single specimen from Okracoke Island. I spent some time looking for this chimera, but never did find one on Okracoke. Found a fair number of eastern kings on Hatteras, though. But I guess by now that area is completely different from what I remember it being back then. Matter of fact, the area where I found the most kings on Hatteras they were planning on putting in a golf course. I'd like to go back there, but I think it best to just keep my memories of the place rather than seeing what it has become now.

 

[DMong]

Heck, I can't remember now where I saw the photograph, but there was supposedly a strain of Sinaloan milks that came from the Tres Maria (?) Islands off of Mexico that I REALLY lusted after. They were unusual in that that had VERY broad white bands, and in my eyes absolutely gorgeous looking. Of course, I never found anyone who had even seen one in person, much less have them available. Of course, that could have just been an aberrant individual for all I really knew. Stuff like that does happen. I've got the original writeup on the Outer Banks king snake (sticticeps) around here somewhere, and that entire description of a new subspecies was based on a single specimen from Okracoke Island. I spent some time looking for this chimera, but never did find one on Okracoke. Found a fair number of eastern kings on Hatteras, though. But I guess by now that area is completely different from what I remember it being back then. Matter of fact, the area where I found the most kings on Hatteras they were planning on putting in a golf course. I'd like to go back there, but I think it best to just keep my memories of the place rather than seeing what it has become now.

Yes, there is indeed an isolated population of nelsoni originating on Tres Marias Island. and they do have wider inner white triad rings than are typical in the mainland forms. Their outer black triad rings are noteably narrower too. I have seen some very narrow triad nelsoni and they have very high RBR counts indicative of nelsoni (13 to 18), but otherwise look like wide white ringed Sinaloans. But I don't know if the locality origin is really known in this line however. They also have an incomplete "notched" first black ring under the throat that is also a key characterictic of nelsoni.

I have some genuine Outer Banks here right now that are a genetic composite of Jim Kane's old line, Carl Bartlett's, Lloyd Lemke's, Bob Fengya's, and Howie Sherman's personal stock originating from Cape Hatteras and Ocracoke Island. these have very substantial basal lightening(speckling) on the scales too, as well as a busy side pattern that "sticticeps" are noted for.

Even though they were once thought to be their own designated subspecies starting in 1942 from that specimen found by William L. Engels by the "Knoll" between Ocracoke and Hatteras inlet that you are talking about, there have been lots of them studied since then and found to be very distinct. Of course they were then dropped to alleged intergrade status when it was thought they might be intergrade getula x floridana snakes when floridana's range was thought to be far different than it is today due to possible past ice ages, etc.., Outer banks kings have since been found to have the exact same identical DNA haplotypes to those of the mainland as far south as southwestern Georgia. So even though they might not be isolated floridana x getula intergrades, they are still very uiquely distinct in my opinion and worthy of special recognition though regardless. I think they are way cool, and would get rid of lots of other things bfore those went..LOL!

Yeah, Rich, I have heard the same thing from some other people about some of the Outer Banks Island areas, in that it is far different than it was many years ago. I'm sure there are still many to be seen there though, even if they are a very protected species there now and cannot be legally captured. man, I would do back-flips just to see one in it's natural environment to be quite honest. :laugh:

Howie personally captured a male sticticeps back in 1989-90 that he also added to his group for genetic diversity. The true sticticeps phenotype is supposed to be from South of Buxton, and on south through Ocracoke, on through Portsmouth and the Core Banks and down to Cape Lookout in Carteret County. Mine have the small narrow heads and have the cross-bars that generally just go across the back and don't go down the sides forming the typical "chain-like" pattern the mainland form of getula is more noted for. some of these hatchlings can be a real pain to get started, but most of them have come around with alot of patience and scenting technique.

As a matter of fact Rich, I have a pair of tiny hatchling sticticeps in Brian Hubbs' kingsnake book that were just 9 and 12 grams at the time of the publication. They are now nice big adults that had a nice big clutch of 13 good eggs this year..woo-hooo!! The male is a very unique looking aberrant/striped individual, the female is a very classic phenotype and another nale is as well. All are VERY speckled as well.

I have some blanchardi too, and the father of my pair originated from just outside of Quintana Roo, Mexico in the Yucatan peninsula on a small chicken ranch. The original mother was acquired from the Moscow Zoo in Russia. I can't wait to get some of those produced to around 2013!! :dancer:

Great chattin Lampropeltis with ya buddy,.....

cheers, ~Doug

 

[chris68]

Doug we vacation in the southern Outer Banks and I "beat the bushes" lookin to get a pic of one everytime we're down there. No luck yet but there is always next year lol. Are you breeding that locality? Would love to get a pair

 

[Rich Z]

Yes, there is indeed an isolated population of nelsoni originating on Tres Marias Island. and they do have wider inner white triad rings than are typical in the mainland forms. Their outer black triad rings are noteably narrower too. I have seen some very narrow triad nelsoni and they have very high RBR counts indicative of nelsoni (13 to 18), but otherwise look like wide white ringed Sinaloans. But I don't know if the locality origin is really known in this line however. They also have an incomplete "notched" first black ring under the throat that is also a key characterictic of nelsoni.

I have some genuine Outer Banks here right now that are a genetic composite of Jim Kane's old line, Carl Bartlett's, Lloyd Lemke's, Bob Fengya's, and Howie Sherman's personal stock originating from Cape Hatteras and Ocracoke Island. these have very substantial basal lightening(speckling) on the scales too, as well as a busy side pattern that "sticticeps" are noted for.

Even though they were once thought to be their own designated subspecies starting in 1942 from that specimen found by William L. Engels by the "Knoll" between Ocracoke and Hatteras inlet that you are talking about, there have been lots of them studied since then and found to be very distinct. Of course they were then dropped to alleged intergrade status when it was thought they might be intergrade getula x floridana snakes when floridana's range was thought to be far different than it is today due to possible past ice ages, etc.., Outer banks kings have since been found to have the exact same identical DNA haplotypes to those of the mainland as far south as southwestern Georgia. So even though they might not be isolated floridana x getula intergrades, they are still very uiquely distinct in my opinion and worthy of special recognition though regardless. I think they are way cool, and would get rid of lots of other things bfore those went..LOL!

Yeah, Rich, I have heard the same thing from some other people about some of the Outer Banks Island areas, in that it is far different than it was many years ago. I'm sure there are still many to be seen there though, even if they are a very protected species there now and cannot be legally captured. man, I would do back-flips just to see one in it's natural environment to be quite honest. :laugh:

Howie personally captured a male sticticeps back in 1989-90 that he also added to his group for genetic diversity. The true sticticeps phenotype is supposed to be from South of Buxton, and on south through Ocracoke, on through Portsmouth and the Core Banks and down to Cape Lookout in Carteret County. Mine have the small narrow heads and have the cross-bars that generally just go across the back and don't go down the sides forming the typical "chain-like" pattern the mainland form of getula is more noted for. some of these hatchlings can be a real pain to get started, but most of them have come around with alot of patience and scenting technique.

As a matter of fact Rich, I have a pair of tiny hatchling sticticeps in Brian Hubbs' kingsnake book that were just 9 and 12 grams at the time of the publication. They are now nice big adults that had a nice big clutch of 13 good eggs this year..woo-hooo!! The male is a very unique looking aberrant/striped individual, the female is a very classic phenotype and another nale is as well. All are VERY speckled as well.

I have some blanchardi too, and the father of my pair originated from just outside of Quintana Roo, Mexico in the Yucatan peninsula on a small chicken ranch. The original mother was acquired from the Moscow Zoo in Russia. I can't wait to get some of those produced to around 2013!! :dancer:

Great chattin Lampropeltis with ya buddy,.....

cheers, ~Doug

If I remember the writeup, one specific identifying feature of sticticeps was that it came EXCLUSIVELY from Okracoke. Another was that it was claimed that it was the ONLY species of snake found on that island, which I disproved merely by finding black racers there.

I'll have to see if I can find that original paper. It was by Barbour and Engels, if I remember correctly.

 

[DMong]

If I remember the writeup, one specific identifying feature of sticticeps was that it came EXCLUSIVELY from Okracoke. Another was that it was claimed that it was the ONLY species of snake found on that island, which I disproved merely by finding black racers there.

I'll have to see if I can find that original paper. It was by Barbour and Engels, if I remember correctly.

Yes I would like to see that myself too. From the data I have researched and collected, the original holotype specimen was in fact COLLECTED from Ocracoke Island and described by Barbour & Engels(1942) from head morphology and ontogenetic speckling in their dark interbanding. Also the snout is said to have substantial white markings and an enlarged rostral scale in specimens found They also are more often a brownish/dark gray coloration as opposed to black in most of the other Eastern forms on the mainland.

However there are a number of mainland getula from the coastal plain and Piedmont areas that have been a more dark brown coloration, and some speckling can also occur in certain mainland kings even found well inland from the coast. I have seen a few of these myself that were collected by a few others, and found it quite interesting. I am guessing that possibly some past major storms and other natural phenomenon such as on floating debri over the millenia might be the reason for some of this too, but who the heck really knows for sure.

Their adult average and maximum size is also QUITE a bit less than mainland getula can attain. I have noticed this in a major way myself.

It is also said that on specimens found south of Cape Point, the heads tended to be more pointed as in Pituophis. Lazell and Musick(1973) reported finding 12 specimens with enlarged rostral scales as compared to the other kings found elsewhere, but specified that snakes found in the extreme nothern portion of their range from right around Frisco and north were more similar of Eastern kings.

Lazell and Musick did in fact report that they found far more speckled and pointed snout phenotypes than Carl Bartlett did, but Bartlett concentrated his searches closer to Buxton on Hatteras Island which is supposed to be true sticticeps northernmost range. And more speckled types with more pointed snouts were found more frequently to the south on Ocracoke and Portsmouth Island.

I have tried to look into the rostral scale differences on the snouts in the sticticeps I have in comparison to pics of some typical Eastern getula, but at the time it was tough to get real good accurate snout shots from pics on the internet to compare them with, so I put it on the back burner since then. I think I might look into that a bit more sometime soon.

In any case, all the data that has been compiled from ALL of the pertinent sources over the years since their first description, it is said that the true "sticticeps" phenotypes are found from southern Hatteras Island(Cape Point) further south most DEFINITELY including Ocracoke as you said earlier. Individuals from Buxton on north are said to resemble true Easterns rather than "sticticeps". Shackelford Bank south of Cape Lookout is said to have a mixture of speckled and normally patterned phenotypes.

But regardless of all that, they are extremely unique and most definitely worthy of breeding them true to their form..

ps, if you do find that paper, Rich, I would love to check it out man.



~Doug

 

[Rich Z]

ps, if you do find that paper, Rich, I would love to check it out man.

~Doug

Amazingly I found it. It was the FIRST one in the stack of publications on my bookshelf....

 

[DMong]

Amazingly I found it. It was the FIRST one in the stack of publications on my bookshelf....

Thanks Rich!,....gosh!,...I could relate to a TON of the stuff that was said regarding them. Many of the details are just as I have understood it from numerous literature sources.

The rice rats(beach mice) are extremely common there, and no doubt a huge part of their main diet, but they will certainly take snakes from time to time too if they are available. Some of the hatchlings I have didn't even want to voluntarily feed on any type of F/T mice until I offered a segment of dead cornsnake, and then backed it up with a very scent-smeared pinkie which a few more readily accepted. What is weirs is that I would have thought they would have been more turned-on by the ground skink scented pinks first... :shrugs:


Anyway, thanks for finding the pdf on the sticticeps Rich. It's ironic that it was actually sitting there on the very top of the stack too..LOL!


~Doug

 

[Rich Z]

Thanks Rich!,....gosh!,...I could relate to a TON of the stuff that was said regarding them. Many of the details are just as I have understood it from numerous literature sources.

The rice rats(beach mice) are extremely common there, and no doubt a huge part of their main diet, but they will certainly take snakes from time to time too if they are available. Some of the hatchlings I have didn't even want to voluntarily feed on any type of F/T mice until I offered a segment of dead cornsnake, and then backed it up with a very scent-smeared pinkie which a few more readily accepted. What is weirs is that I would have thought they would have been more turned-on by the ground skink scented pinks first... :shrugs:


Anyway, thanks for finding the pdf on the sticticeps Rich. It's ironic that it was actually sitting there on the very top of the stack too..LOL!


~Doug

Actually I didn't find the PDF file, I have the original paper in my library. I scanned it in and converted the images to that PDF file. Unfortunately I left off the last page, but it was only about that rat snake anyway. I actually collected quite a few papers on odds and ends from various sources, especially neotropical triangulums, way back when.

I think you can see from the "details" presented in that paper why I abandoned sticticeps way back when. I actually had a pair that I got from a guy (can't remember his name, unfortunately, but I met him through Larry Rouch when I lived in Maryland). Very heavily speckled and supposedly came from the Hatteras area, as I never knew anyone at the time that actually caught any kings on Okracoke. Unfortunately that pair never produced for me. The female seemed receptive, but that darn male just couldn't figure out what he was supposed to do.

Anyway, those that I had would DEFINITELY eat other snakes if given the chance, were DEFINITELY constrictors, and there were DEFINITELY other snakes on Okracoke Island. I caught several kings in Hatteras itself, even come gravid females, but none of them looked like anything other than regular chain kings. I can't recall the exact spot I found most of them, but it was a dirt road heading off to the left of the main road (heading south) and it was near a water tower, I believe. Lots of trash back there. Heck, I remember one instance when I was digging through junk and there was an old car seat dumped back in there. I rolled it over but didn't find anything under it, but when I rolled it back to put it like it originally was, then a gravid female king fell out of the cushions. Been a LONG time since I've been in that area, and I recall they were marking out the area in preparation to putting in a golf course. So quite likely that area just doesn't exist any longer.

I spent quite a bit of time on Hatteras and Okracoke back then and simply came to the conclusion that if there were such a thing as sticticeps, they were not located where I was looking for them. Okracoke at the time was pretty much a wilderness area from the ferry dock till you got into the town itself. Spent a lot of time hunting around the "knoll" area mentioned in that writeup, but except for black racers, I didn't see any other snakes there. Lots of black widows, surprisingly, so you didn't stick your fingers under anything to lift it. Since I had a Bronco at the time, I actually spend time in areas that weren't very easily accessible without 4 wheel drive. So I dare to say I did cover a lot of ground in that small area. All to no avail as to anything that looked any differently from typical chain kings.

BTW, oddly enough, the cottonmouths I saw in there are rather attractive compared to what you normally see. They were actually greenish colored. Not that I caught them, but they were interesting looking for cottonmouths.

Do you have any pics of your sticticeps? I'd like to see what yours look like, if you don't mind.

 

[DMong]

Actually I didn't find the PDF file, I have the original paper in my library. I scanned it in and converted the images to that PDF file. Unfortunately I left off the last page, but it was only about that rat snake anyway. I actually collected quite a few papers on odds and ends from various sources, especially neotropical triangulums, way back when.

I think you can see from the "details" presented in that paper why I abandoned sticticeps way back when. I actually had a pair that I got from a guy (can't remember his name, unfortunately, but I met him through Larry Rouch when I lived in Maryland). Very heavily speckled and supposedly came from the Hatteras area, as I never knew anyone at the time that actually caught any kings on Okracoke. Unfortunately that pair never produced for me. The female seemed receptive, but that darn male just couldn't figure out what he was supposed to do.

Anyway, those that I had would DEFINITELY eat other snakes if given the chance, were DEFINITELY constrictors, and there were DEFINITELY other snakes on Okracoke Island. I caught several kings in Hatteras itself, even come gravid females, but none of them looked like anything other than regular chain kings. I can't recall the exact spot I found most of them, but it was a dirt road heading off to the left of the main road (heading south) and it was near a water tower, I believe. Lots of trash back there. Heck, I remember one instance when I was digging through junk and there was an old car seat dumped back in there. I rolled it over but didn't find anything under it, but when I rolled it back to put it like it originally was, then a gravid female king fell out of the cushions. Been a LONG time since I've been in that area, and I recall they were marking out the area in preparation to putting in a golf course. So quite likely that area just doesn't exist any longer.

I spent quite a bit of time on Hatteras and Okracoke back then and simply came to the conclusion that if there were such a thing as sticticeps, they were not located where I was looking for them. Okracoke at the time was pretty much a wilderness area from the ferry dock till you got into the town itself. Spent a lot of time hunting around the "knoll" area mentioned in that writeup, but except for black racers, I didn't see any other snakes there. Lots of black widows, surprisingly, so you didn't stick your fingers under anything to lift it. Since I had a Bronco at the time, I actually spend time in areas that weren't very easily accessible without 4 wheel drive. So I dare to say I did cover a lot of ground in that small area. All to no avail as to anything that looked any differently from typical chain kings.

BTW, oddly enough, the cottonmouths I saw in there are rather attractive compared to what you normally see. They were actually greenish colored. Not that I caught them, but they were interesting looking for cottonmouths.

Do you have any pics of your sticticeps? I'd like to see what yours look like, if you don't mind.

Well, abondoning them because they are not a valid subspecies, then...yes, but if you mean they are not extremely distinct and uniquely different from other Eastern getula then no, not at all. They look absolutely NOTHING like a typical Eastern king whatsoever....

Those were definitely some cool stories from back in the day. I love that sort of stuff.

Sure, here are just a few shots of them, I have lots of pics of all sorts of stuff. The aberrant/striped male is featured in Hubbs' kingsnake book on page 260 as a tiny hatchling if you happen to have it, and so is the classic patterned female. I have another classic patterned adult male too. They are now all adult breeders. Here you will see a couple hatchling pics of my original group, and also some pics as they matured more......the aberrant/striped male is a real bruiser now.

http://serpentinespecialties.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=7856251


An here is a pair of them breeding this past season........

http://serpentinespecialties.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=124373543



~Doug

 

[Rich Z]

Nice looking animals! The original pair I got looked a lot like those. But what I PERSONALLY found in Hatteras looked nothing like them at all. And to be perfectly honest, I just don't see the head shape difference in your photos as claimed in Barbour and Engles' paper. I caught quite a few eastern kings from New Jersey into the Carolinas and saw a lot of normal variation in head shape all along the way, and nothing I saw in the specimens I caught, or even those original two I had obtained from the Outer Banks expressed anything I would consider as out of the ordinary.

When I had them, once I had convinced myself that what Barbour and Engles had originally described did not really exist beyond that singular aberrant animal they used as a basis for that description, plus I could refute the "facts" stated in that paper with my own experience, I just lost interest in them. To be quite honest, it boggled my mind that the paper claimed a new previously unidentified subspecific race of getulus based on a SINGLE animal.

That being said, the animals you are working with are definitely interesting in, and regardless of the past I think a label defining them differently from standard eastern chain kings would be worthwhile. But personally I wouldn't consider that any different than "Miami Phase" identifies a specific look of the corn snake, and not something warranting a unique subspecific name. IMHO, of course.

 

[DMong]

Nice looking animals! The original pair I got looked a lot like those. But what I PERSONALLY found in Hatteras looked nothing like them at all. And to be perfectly honest, I just don't see the head shape difference in your photos as claimed in Barbour and Engles' paper. I caught quite a few eastern kings from New Jersey into the Carolinas and saw a lot of normal variation in head shape all along the way, and nothing I saw in the specimens I caught, or even those original two I had obtained from the Outer Banks expressed anything I would consider as out of the ordinary.

When I had them, once I had convinced myself that what Barbour and Engles had originally described did not really exist beyond that singular aberrant animal they used as a basis for that description, plus I could refute the "facts" stated in that paper with my own experience, I just lost interest in them. To be quite honest, it boggled my mind that the paper claimed a new previously unidentified subspecific race of getulus based on a SINGLE animal.

That being said, the animals you are working with are definitely interesting in, and regardless of the past I think a label defining them differently from standard eastern chain kings would be worthwhile. But personally I wouldn't consider that any different than "Miami Phase" identifies a specific look of the corn snake, and not something warranting a unique subspecific name. IMHO, of course.

Thanks Rich, glad you like those guys too. Yes, QUITE a uniquely different phenotype indeed compared to any other typical Eastern getula. I also very much question the head shapes in many as well, and personally think it is simply more of a case of individual variation. I still have to look into the enlarged rostral scale hypothesis though, but that could be along the same lines as the head shape. As we both know, many different types of snakes will certainly display different shaped head structure. Gosh, some corns have extremely long narrow heads, and others absolutely aren't at all.

The way the cross-bars go across the back and basically stop in most, and major ontogenetic basal scale speckling in these, as well as the size of the snake's themselves compared to other Eastern getula are very different and noteworthy of course too. And also since the DNA haplotypes were discovered to be identical to mainland Eastern forms as far south as western Georgia, they are simply an isolated clinal variant race of Eastern king that reside off the coast of N. Carolina, and not a true valid subspecies, or intergrade as once thought.

I would certainly compare them to what the "keys rosy rats" are to a more northern cline of typical "classic" cornsnake, or even a Mexican black king (L.g.nigrita) that in my opinion and many others that are very familiar with them is nothing more than a southern melanistic form of Desert king (L.g.splendida).

In any case, they are a indeed a very prized and revered form of getula in the hobby, and keeping their phenotypic intergrity bred true to form is very important to me and many others and still warrant the name "sticticeps" if nothing more than to accurately describe what TYPE of specific Eastern getula they are.

They sure as heck are not a $25-30 common Eastern king...

Glad you liked the pics!



~Doug

 

[Rich Z]

I have to admit that I am curious about why the kings I caught smack dab in Hatteras looked so ordinary to me in comparison to the animals you have and the ones I originally bought. Have you personally collected any of those animals to be certain of the locality info as being on Hatteras island? Did ANY of the ones you know of positively come from Okracoke?

Just idle curiosity, as this always did bug me.

 

[DMong]

I have to admit that I am curious about why the kings I caught smack dab in Hatteras looked so ordinary to me in comparison to the animals you have and the ones I originally bought. Have you personally collected any of those animals to be certain of the locality info as being on Hatteras island? Did ANY of the ones you know of positively come from Okracoke?

Just idle curiosity, as this always did bug me.

Yeah, I hear ya there..LOL!....Well, it really all depends on exactly what part of Hatteras Island you are referring on Hatteras Island. For example if you were searching "smack dab" in the middle portion of the 50 mile long Hatteras Island, say in the "Salvo" area of the island, they would most certainly resemble the more typical Eastern phenotype from all that I have researched about them. Because as stated earlier, the sticticeps phenotypes are said to start to occur from around Frisco on SOUTH which is in the very southern portion close to the cape. Frisco is approx. 23 miles south of the Salvo area of Hatteras Island (the middle of Hatteras), and an additional 6 miles to the last wooded area at the end of Hatteras Island (Cape Hatteras). And still another 3 miles across the water to Ocracoke. So the specimens well north of the southern end of Hatteras would be far more likely to be more typical Eastern and/or even possible mixed phenotypes here and there as mentioned in literature and personal communications from those that have studied and found them.

I have never personally done any hunting for them there, but I do happen to know for a fact that Carl Bartlett has found over 20 himself, but I don't know if ALL of them were found on Hatteras itself. He did say that out of the over 20 he has seen, only one or two had the head of the original holotype description. Howie Sherman has captured very speckled animals on Cape Hatteras towards the southern portion, and I know he has also found them on Ocracoke too in past years. Tony Dungarra has also found a good number of them, although I will have to ask him what area(s) of the Outer Banks islands. He has seen them mostly in mid-April and May basking with their broadest side surface facing the sun between 8:00 am and 10:00am on sunny days.

Also, you are definitely right about other reptiles being there as well, although certainly more "specialists" in the harsher environment there on the extreme coast. There are Nerodia, Racers and cottonmouths as you mentioned, Rough Green Snakes, cornsnakes (north of Buxton), Hognose, and possibly even a few Pigmy Rattlers in some parts of it. I believe skinks, glass lizards and Racerunners have also been found on the Outer Banks islands. But as you said earlier, the very limited habitat that can support these animals is always being reduced more and more on the island chains.

In any case, it really does seem to matter what area of the 50 mile long Island they are looked for, towards the very southern end an further south on Ocracoke and beyond to Cape Lookout on the Core Banks would most definitely be the more distinct "sticticeps" types.



cheers, ~Doug

 

[Rich Z]

Actually, when I say "Hatteras" I am talking about the TOWN of Hatteras. I was about as south as you could go on the island without jumping on the ferry to go to Okracoke and still find any areas that looked promising to find king snakes. For one thing, I was looking in areas with some fresh water available. And the town of Hatteras had the usual surrounding areas where people would dump crap that all snake hunters gravitate to in their pursuit of snakes. Once you got past the Ferry landing on Hatteras island, there was really NOTHING but sand dunes and beer bottles. Those fresh water ponds are where I saw the moccasins hanging out and certainly this was the area I expected to find the kings, and was not disappointed.

Okracoke itself was really pretty desolate from the ferry landing till you actually got into the town of Okracoke. The "knoll" was just an area of a little higher ground and larger pine trees, but as best I can recall, there was no fresh water around there. At least not a semi permanent source like a pond like there was in Hatteras. Honestly, Okracoke just seemed all wrong to me to be looking for king snakes.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I actually caught a rat snake in Hatteras, but there wasn't anything very memorable about it that I can recall. I just caught it, looked it over, and let it go on it's merry way.

BTW, speaking of the size of these kings, I did catch a rather large male once that was laying alongside a piece of sheet metal, maybe part of a car, perhaps. The rest were rather moderately sized, like maybe three to three and a half ft. long, but this male was a good 5 footer.

Maybe if I feel bored during retirement Connie and I will take a ride out that way sometime just so I can see how things look now and maybe spot where we used to hunt for these critters so I can talk more like I know what the heck I am talking about concerning pin point localities. But I do know it was the town of Hatteras where I actually caught the kings I found and not further north.

BTW, if you ever do get to Hatteras island, stop by the lighthouse near Buxton. There is a pond near there that has a population of turtles that will actually come to you when you stand on the shore, expecting to be fed. EVERY turtle in that pond will come over to you. It's an amazing experience. I do hope they are still there....

 

[Rich Z]

Addendum, still thinking about the area and I recall find a DOR canebrake rattlersnake around the Salvo area one time. Pretty animal with an astonishing orange stripe down the back.

 

[DMong]

Actually, when I say "Hatteras" I am talking about the TOWN of Hatteras. I was about as south as you could go on the island without jumping on the ferry to go to Okracoke and still find any areas that looked promising to find king snakes. For one thing, I was looking in areas with some fresh water available. And the town of Hatteras had the usual surrounding areas where people would dump crap that all snake hunters gravitate to in their pursuit of snakes. Once you got past the Ferry landing on Hatteras island, there was really NOTHING but sand dunes and beer bottles. Those fresh water ponds are where I saw the moccasins hanging out and certainly this was the area I expected to find the kings, and was not disappointed.

Okracoke itself was really pretty desolate from the ferry landing till you actually got into the town of Okracoke. The "knoll" was just an area of a little higher ground and larger pine trees, but as best I can recall, there was no fresh water around there. At least not a semi permanent source like a pond like there was in Hatteras. Honestly, Okracoke just seemed all wrong to me to be looking for king snakes.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I actually caught a rat snake in Hatteras, but there wasn't anything very memorable about it that I can recall. I just caught it, looked it over, and let it go on it's merry way.

BTW, speaking of the size of these kings, I did catch a rather large male once that was laying alongside a piece of sheet metal, maybe part of a car, perhaps. The rest were rather moderately sized, like maybe three to three and a half ft. long, but this male was a good 5 footer.

Maybe if I feel bored during retirement Connie and I will take a ride out that way sometime just so I can see how things look now and maybe spot where we used to hunt for these critters so I can talk more like I know what the heck I am talking about concerning pin point localities. But I do know it was the town of Hatteras where I actually caught the kings I found and not further north.

BTW, if you ever do get to Hatteras island, stop by the lighthouse near Buxton. There is a pond near there that has a population of turtles that will actually come to you when you stand on the shore, expecting to be fed. EVERY turtle in that pond will come over to you. It's an amazing experience. I do hope they are still there....

Wow, yes!, the town of Hatteras is pretty darn south alright..LOL!. I would expect some to be around there for sure,...hmm,.....yeah, that is pretty strange. Yes, as you said, Ocracoke is pretty damn desolate for a good portion of it. I have heard that from others too, and looked at it from google earth, and alot of it seems pretty sparce. I understand these snakes are very much denizens of the salt marsh. I read a VERY interesting personal story regarding these snakes that you will no doubt find very interesting if you and Connie should venture there to take a look around. I will PM that portion to you though, as it would be much more detrimental to their protected existence if everyone on the planet knew what I have found out regarding them.

BTW, I will keep that turtle pond by Buxton in mind if I ever get up that way again,...thanks!

Also, what exactly did the ratsnake's phenotype look like that you found on Hatteras?, was it a fairly typical Black phenotype?, or could you detect any intergrade "greenish" rat (yellow x Black) influence from what you can recall?



~Doug