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How pure must a corn be to be truely pure?
- Thread starter antsterr
- Start date
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
Yeah, those are only photos he snagged off the internet to put on his facebook page album and fantasize over. Gosh, I "almost" wish Carpe DID produce tons of hybrids. Maybe then he would spend more time with THEM, and not spend so much of his free-time obsessing, fantasizing, comparing them to breeds of dogs, and attempting to justify them 24 hours a day. Oh, and lost, but certainly not least, turn EVERY SINGLE THREAD he ever encounters into some sort of hi-jacked ridiculous hybrid thread. :argue:
It's incredibly sad that he cannot put this energy and dedication into some sort of worthwhile cause instead.
~Doug
It's incredibly sad that he cannot put this energy and dedication into some sort of worthwhile cause instead.
~Doug
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Now, that is a bold faced lie. You did not just assume that... we have gone over this till I am blue in the face from trying to explain to you that I collect pictures and share them of various hybrids I have found and admire. I'd say that was an all time low for you, but I think your all time low was when you friended me just to unfriend me in the same day after poking fun at my name. Ethics is definitely not your strong suit my friend.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Yeah, those are only photos he snagged off the internet to put on his facebook page album and fantasize over. Gosh, I "almost" wish Carpe DID produce tons of hybrids. Maybe then he would spend more time with THEM, and not spend so much of his free-time obsessing, fantasizing, comparing them to breeds of dogs, and attempting to justify them 24 hours a day. Oh, and lost, but certainly not least, turn EVERY SINGLE THREAD he ever encounters into some sort of hi-jacked ridiculous hybrid thread. :argue:
It's incredibly sad that he cannot put this energy and dedication into some sort of worthwhile cause instead.
~Doug
I do put energy and dedication into worthwhile causes. I've adopted a road for clean up. I donate to the homeless. I've gone on marches, demonstrations, etc. I've also served my country as a soldier for many years. I stand up for gay rights and so much more.
Now, I will admit it tickles me a bit when people claim to want pure specimens and then breed with unknown and highly suspect specimens.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
"Collection of snakes I have found on the world wide web and other things that I think relate. Many are hybrid snakes as these are my personal favorites."
Assuming that is you posting on my photo album with the above subtitle... you've known this for at least 5 months. Note, I took all photos from that same album.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Lol, since when did it become a requirement to hybridize to talk about the concept? With that said, you've been around long enough to know better than to jump on that band wagon. To be sure though, I have hybridized and released a number of hybrids.
Lennycorn
Just see the truth
Just trying to learn here. That's why I join this site to learn from breeders.
So you have produce hybrid corns. Is that correct? Love to see some picture of what you have.
And by the above statement, do you mean you have produce and release in to the wild hybridized snakes, or is that a misunderstanding.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
One very valid question here though is this…. if as Kathy Love stated on the previous link supplied…. candycane corn snakes were created from several generations of selectively breeding Miami phase and creamsicles to get the proper effect… even if we acknowledge that not all candycanes may have been made this way…. do we not also have to acknowledge that both creamsicles and candycanes of hybrid origin carry the amel gene and are therefore different morphs both carrying amel phenotypes in addition to other genes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow
A creamsicle is an Amel corn x emoryi hybrid. So it can't have other morphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by airenlow
Correct. An Amel can't be another morph, an Anery can't be another morph, etc...
Now aside from all the smart cookie jeers from beautifullywild head bunting into a wall….
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Smith
Actually, you will get Amels out of this breeding. Creamsicles are the result of the combine of Amel Corn X Emoryi Rat.
A Creamsicle is basically a Amel variation such as a Candycane or Reverse Okeetee.
The breeding of a Creamsicle X Golddust the clutch, in theory, would result in:
1/2 Amel (varitation due to Emoryi) het Caramel
1/2 Ultramel (variation due to Emoryi) het Caramel
Walter
BOUT' CORNS !!
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...ght=creamsicle
When does a candycane bred from a Miami phase x (creamsicle) gain pure status? Agreed, perhaps not all candycanes have creamsicle in their lineage… but then that also begs the question… where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?
__________________
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
-----------------------
"...since creamsicles have
been bred with corn snakes very
extensively, it can be impossible to tell if
a snake has creamsicle background
based on appearance."
http://www.hisscanada.com/HISS new... Vol 1.pdf
"sure must only be a few drops of that emoryi left by now, since no more creams were added in since at least 1990, as far as I can remember)....COOL. THANKS FOR THE HISTORY. I SAW MY FIRST CREAMSICLES IN TUCSON WHEN JOHN MARTIN BRED ALBINO CORNS TO EMORY'S. HE GOT THE ALBINO CORNS IN THE EARLY 80S (MAYBE LATE 70S) FROM ERNIE WAGNER. TRADED A MEX MEX SOMEONE CAUGHT IN TUCSON FOR THEM. HE REPORTED TO ME THAT THE F2S WERE FADED, UGLY ALBINOS AND HE DROPPED THE PROJECT. OF COURSE, THEY LATER BECAME KNOWN AS CREAMSICLES....- - - - I got my first creamsicles from Kevin Enge at Hogtown in Gainesville, Florida. By then, we already had no-white (sunglow) corns and reverse okeetees. Some of the first creamsicles we obtained had very light backgrounds. We happened to have a female albino corn with a very light background, so bred it, the light creams, and a couple of reverse okeetees with a very light background together for a few years. We added in a Miami phase or two with little or no orange in the background. That group became the foundation for our candycane line. Then over the years refined it, adding other corns as needed. But as far as I remember, we never added candycane to alb. okeetees, only the candycanes got the dose of creams, along with other founding stock. And the fact that alb. okeetees were added to candycanes (but no candycanes were added to the alb. okeetee projects) seems to have caused the confusion about what is pure and what is not.....However, unless you can trace a line's ancestry back to the wild, there is no way to guarantee any line is "pure" (and there is a slight chance of "contamination" even from the wild!) Back in the '80s, albino corns were much more readily available than creams, so I have no reason to believe that the original albinos had cream in them. But I can't trace them back to the wild....
" http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...show_threads=2
Thanks Dave, you are most certainly a wealth of information. Thank you for taking the time to share this.
__________________
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
You don't need to hybridize to understand how to read. You don't need to hybridize to understand how to interpret information such as the above.
You can lead some to school, but you can't do their homework for them.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
QUOTE=dave partington;1578355]I think you mean
Where did all the candycanes with emoryi in their lineage go?
Here's a few more info links. You know how I like to toss around fodder.
http://www.hisscanada.com/HISS newsletter Vol 1.pdf
http://www.cornpedia.eu/modules.php?name=cornpedia&op=content&tid=39
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1475630,1475747&key=2008&show_threads=2 be sure to check out the rest of the thread links at the bottom of that linked page. Loads of juicy stuff to keep you going and going and going.[/QUOTE]
You can take your time and read all of this... and then research some more, but in the end... you aren't going to understand it unless you read it. You can own all the snakes you want and make all the crosses you want, but reading or studying is fundamental to understanding what you might want to call the history of the pet corn snake.
Where did all the candycanes with emoryi in their lineage go?
Here's a few more info links. You know how I like to toss around fodder.
http://www.hisscanada.com/HISS newsletter Vol 1.pdf
http://www.cornpedia.eu/modules.php?name=cornpedia&op=content&tid=39
http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1475630,1475747&key=2008&show_threads=2 be sure to check out the rest of the thread links at the bottom of that linked page. Loads of juicy stuff to keep you going and going and going.
[/QUOTE]You can take your time and read all of this... and then research some more, but in the end... you aren't going to understand it unless you read it. You can own all the snakes you want and make all the crosses you want, but reading or studying is fundamental to understanding what you might want to call the history of the pet corn snake.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
Yeah, those are only photos he snagged off the internet to put on his facebook page album and fantasize over. Gosh, I "almost" wish Carpe DID produce tons of hybrids. Maybe then he would spend more time with THEM, and not spend so much of his free-time obsessing, fantasizing, comparing them to breeds of dogs, and attempting to justify them 24 hours a day. Oh, and lost, but certainly not least, turn EVERY SINGLE THREAD he ever encounters into some sort of hi-jacked ridiculous hybrid thread. :argue:
It's incredibly sad that he cannot put this energy and dedication into some sort of worthwhile cause instead.
~Doug
There is no bold faced anything going on here. There is just you salivating over other people's snakes and stealing their pictures so you can excite yourself with them in private. I see no indictation who those snakes in those pictures belong to, no acknowledgement of who took the picture, no breeder mentioned at all. If you post pictures that belong to other people without letting them know, and without identifying them YOU ARE STEALING.
Buy or breed your own damn snakes, then snap pictures of them to your hearts content. What you are doing now is so not cool.....
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Once you've done a minor amount of reading, I think it will become abundantly clear that there has been a lot of leakage of other species into the pet corn snake. Which begs the questions, how pure must a corn be to be truely pure?
Where does one acquire these pure corn snakes?
Or as this fellow relates, "Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis
When does a candycane bred from a Miami phase x (creamsicle) gain pure status?
It won't, if you are of the school of thought that any introduction of genes from a non corn makes it impure.
Quote:
Agreed, perhaps not all candycanes have creamsicle in their lineage… but then that also begs the question… where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?
Into the great mixing vat that is "pet corn snakes".
__________________" http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1578355#post1578355
Where does one acquire these pure corn snakes?
Or as this fellow relates, "Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Serpentis
When does a candycane bred from a Miami phase x (creamsicle) gain pure status?
It won't, if you are of the school of thought that any introduction of genes from a non corn makes it impure.
Quote:
Agreed, perhaps not all candycanes have creamsicle in their lineage… but then that also begs the question… where did all the lines of candycanes with creamsicle in their lineage go?
Into the great mixing vat that is "pet corn snakes".
__________________" http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1578355#post1578355
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Your personal opinion and your welcome to it. As I stated earlier and I'll state again... those pictures are from my photo album here on cornsnakes.com labeled, "Collection of snakes I have found on the world wide web and other things that I think relate. Many are hybrid snakes as these are my personal favorites." As you can see, I am not trying to take any credit for them, but you knew this as well already as this has been addressed before many times.
airenlow
hope is not a strategy
. . .
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
At VMS, we frequently get inquiries and comments regarding the hybridization of captive reptiles. Many of these comments border on near-hysteria, others simply state that hybridization is unethical. In one case, the writer gave the impression that the world would end if additional hybrids of any type are produced. Yet while writing such a letter, that same person may have a domestic cat curled up in his or her lap. The writer is blissfully unaware that this cherished pet is most likely a descendant of an intra-specific hybrid, a cross between the African Wild Cat (Felis sylvestris lybica) and the Asian Wild Cat (Felis sylvestris sylvestris). In fact, some scientists believe that both Pallas's Cat (Felis manul) and Sand Cat (Felis margarita) may also have contributed to the domestic cat gene pool as ancestors of longhaired cats. In any event, all of this would have taken place thousands of years ago and the world is still turning.
But one thing is pretty obvious in all these cases. Each and every writer seems completely ignorant of what a hybrid truly is, and even more ignorant of the benefits of hybridization. Sure, there can be a few 'downsides' to hybrids, but even these have little merit in an argument. Think about that while you go let the dog out. Did you know your canine friend is a hybrid? In his case, there appear to be so many ancestors which contributed to his genetic pool that scientists cannot even agree on which or how many there might be. Yet no dog-lover would ever consider abandoning Fido simply because he's not 100% pure Wolf!
So perhaps we need to shed a little light on the myths surrounding hybridization.
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCHybridization.htm
But one thing is pretty obvious in all these cases. Each and every writer seems completely ignorant of what a hybrid truly is, and even more ignorant of the benefits of hybridization. Sure, there can be a few 'downsides' to hybrids, but even these have little merit in an argument. Think about that while you go let the dog out. Did you know your canine friend is a hybrid? In his case, there appear to be so many ancestors which contributed to his genetic pool that scientists cannot even agree on which or how many there might be. Yet no dog-lover would ever consider abandoning Fido simply because he's not 100% pure Wolf!
So perhaps we need to shed a little light on the myths surrounding hybridization.
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCHybridization.htm
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
The word hybrid is a term applied by plant and animal breeders to the offspring of a cross between two different subspecies or species. Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids. Hybrids between different sub-species within a species are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intergeneric hybrids.
The mule, the hybrid steer, and hybrid corn are examples of hybrids produced by breeders, but some animal species may cross-breed in the wild, as the gray wolf and coyote sometimes do.
Hybrids are often named by the portmanteau method, combining the names of the two parent species. Illustrated here (Fig. 1), a zeedonk is a cross between a Zebra and a Donkey. Since the traits of hybrid offspring often vary depending on which species was mother and which was father, it is traditional to use the father's species as the first half of the portmanteau. For example, a Liger is a cross between a male Lion and a female Tiger, while a Tigon is a cross between a male Tiger and a female Lion.
Some other common animal interspecies hybrids are:
•Mule, a cross of female Horse and a male Donkey.
•Hinny, a cross between a female Donkey and a male Horse.
•Zeedonk or Zonkey, a Zebra/Donkey cross.
•Beefalo/cattalo, a cross of an American Bison and a domestic Cow. This is a fertile breed, although the two species are in different genera (Bison and Bos, respectively).
•Wolfdog, the cross between a domestic Dog and a Wolf. Fertile Canid hybrids occur between coyotes, wolves, dingos, jackals and domestic dogs. Depending on the author, dogs and wolves may be considered the same species, making wolfdogs a non-hybrid.
•Bengal cat, a recent cross between the Asian Leopard cat and the domestic Cat, one of many hybrids between the domestic cat and wild cat species.
Why Hybridize?
Hybridization between cultivars or varieties is often used in agriculture to obtain greater vigor or growth (heterosis). The first generation often shows greatly increased vigor and a better yield primarily because many genes for recessive, often deleterious, traits from one parent are masked by corresponding dominant genes in the other parent. Many of the hybrid reptiles produced in today's marketplace also show the positive effects of hybrid vigor. Larger babies, with stronger feeding responses, are often produced.
The offspring can display traits and characteristics of both parents. This is a common reason for hybridizing captive reptiles. Combining two forms with attractive appearances to create a third intermediate form which may be still more uniquely attractive is a common goal. Many breeders also use hybridization as a means to introduce desired mutations into species not currently exhibiting them. One of the first projects along these lines was the use of albino Ruthven's Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis ruthveni) to introduce the albino gene to the closely related Gray Banded Kingsnake (L. alterna). By carefully selecting the resulting offspring for appearance similar to the Gray Banded Kingsnake, breeders were able to produce albino specimens nearly identical to pure Gray Banded Kingsnakes.
The possibility of natural interbreeding and the production of fertile offspring is an indicator of the genetic closeness of the two species. An understanding of the true relationships between species can be enhanced through the process. DNA compatibility is certainly a more accurate indicator of close relationships than mere anatomy...
The Downsides
The offspring of an interspecific or intergeneric cross may be sterile. Sterility is often attributed to the different number of chromosomes the two species have, for example donkeys have 62 chromosomes, while horses have 64, mules and hinnies have 63. Mules, hinnies, and other normally sterile interspecific hybrids normally cannot produce viable gametes because the extra chromosome cannot make a homologous pair at meiosis, meiosis is disrupted, and viable sperm and eggs are not formed. However, fertility in both female mules and hinnies has been reported with a donkey as the father.
Loss of 'purity of race'. This is the most common argument presented against hybridization, and it has a bit of merit. However, such argument is often carried to extremes. It's generally broken into a few concepts, most of which are misleading:
•"The genetic purity of the race will be lost and the resulting specimens will be unfit for repatriation into the wild population". Lemme clue you in on this: Absolutely NO specimens ever kept in the pet trade will ever be used for repatriation of a species in the wild, period. First, releasing any animal into the wild without authorization is already illegal in most states and many countries. Second, projects along these lines are carefully monitored by the relevant AAZPA approved Taxon Advisory Groups and relevant wildlife agencies. The requirements to be met for such projects are exhausting and you can believe me when I state that your pet snakes will never be used for such purposes.
•"The genetic purity of the captive population will be destroyed forever". Often this argument is presented along with the idea that genetic information about hybrids sold will be lost or misunderstood by keepers acquiring future generations of these animals.
•First, let me state that anybody producing hybrids does indeed have an obligation to accurately label them as such to prevent accidental introduction of undesired or unwanted genes into the population. That's just professional etiquette. I think the same data should accompany sales of known pure races as well. We've got the same obligation to maintain details of purity as we do of impurity.
•Here's a secret for you: Unless your animals are pure descendants of known 'locality specific' specimens their purity is already highly questionable anyway. This is the reason that the TAG groups mentioned above were formed to oversee captive release projects. The minute you take your pure 'Jasper County Cornsnake' and breed it to a pet albino, you've lost the guarantee of purity forever, even though both are cornsnakes.
•"Hybrids are trash". Yeah, whatever. Sharing such a factually presented opinion carries zero weight with anybody. You should have joined the high school debate team, you might have learned a thing or two about presenting your point. Foreign car enthusiasts have been saying bad things about domestic vehicles for years now, and vice versa. Come to think of it, so have Ford vs. Chevy owners. Guess what: Nobody cares about your sticker showing some kid wearing a Ford shirt urinating on a Chevy when they are shopping for a new vehicle. There's millions of happy owners of all these brands of vehicles. Moral of the story: If you don't like it don't buy it. This is America and that's your freedom of choice. So is expressing your opinion, just try not to sound like an idiot or waste other people's time when doing so.
I Don't Like Hybrids What Can I do About it?
Honestly, the number of uneducated/unprofessional/unscrupulous dealers and breeders out there is huge and any form of monitoring is impractical. If genetic purity is important to you, spend the extra time and money seeking out specimens from reputable dealers. Is a dealer producing hybrids disreputable? Certainly not, provided he or she is accurately labeling the hybrids as such. In fact, such a dealer is probably among the most reputable, as such labeling illustrates the dealer's understanding of the importance of such accuracy in labeling. Thus you can probably put greater faith in such a dealer when he or she labels something as pure! There's no point in sending a scathing letter of protest to a dealer just because he produces hybrids. He's probable more educated and informed on this subject than you are, and you just come off looking like an idiot.
About 'Mystery' Snakes
All of the above discussion centers upon snakes that are known to be hybrids. But each year a number of potential new mutations are brought to light. Often such snakes are quickly labeled as hybrids by the public - without regard to some factual information that must first be considered. Let's talk about a few of those, using a snake suspected of being a hybrid between a Cornsnake (Pantherophis [Elaphe] guttata guttata) and Gray Ratsnake (Pantherophis [Elaphe] obsoleta spiloides) as an example:
•First, before quickly labeling some other breeder's efforts as "a trashy hybrid", you need to ask yourself if you are really an authority on the subject? Or even an educated non-authority? A specie is described to science by authorities on the subject, using only known locality specimens which are then held in museum study collections for permanent reference. The original specimen utilized to describe a new specie is designated as the holotype, while additional supporting specimens used are termed paratypes. These papers and specimens are the ONLY acceptable definition of a pure specimen, as defined by science. Anyone casting opinions on the purity of any specimen MUST consult these references before doing so or they have zero authority on the subject. In the case of our example snake, the following documents would be required: Elaphe guttata guttata (LINNAEUS 1758) and Elaphe obsoleta spiloides (DUMêRIL, BIBRON & DUMêRIL 1854). It would be wise to consult additional reference materials from subsequent authors as well.
•Second, notice that these papers and all subsequent papers require use of the original specimens collected from known locality for original and future discussion as reference. There's a reason for that. As future authors study the population dynamics of a specie, the group as a whole may be split into several sub-species or even species. The original names applied would then apply only to the specimens from the original population.
•In the case of our Cornsnake example, several subspecies have been described over the years, and some have later been split off into separate species. Some subspecies have later been discarded as being erroneous. Thus, 'pure' cornsnakes of today, may actually be intra-specific hybrids of former subspecies or future subspecies. Consider breeding say, a known locality Jasper County (Okeetee) Cornsnake to a known locality Pine Island Charcoal Cornsnake to create known 'pure' Charcoal Cornsnakes. Should future scientists decide the Pine Island population represents a new subspecies, your 'pure' corns would now be hybrids. It's all a matter of definition and viewpoint.
•My point here is that if you don't have a clear and factual understanding of what a pure Cornsnake or Gray Ratsnake actually is, you are certainly in no position to cast judgment on our example.
•Third, understand that NO captive bred snake can ever be used as a holotype or paratype for a specie or subspecies description. The reason for this is the possibility of non-natural appearance caused by embryonic development issues or mutation. Simply put, if a genetic mutation such as albinism can appear in captive specimens of our two example snakes, then other mutations can certainly appear as well. Some of these may not be apparent to the layman or even to the scientist, perhaps being subtle differences in structure, body shape, or scalation. Thus such specimens are disqualified from such use by necessity.
•An obvious example of this (related to our example, as well) are the occasional scale-less specimens of Cornsnake and Gray Ratsnake produced in captivity. With scale counts and scale patterns a vital part of the scientifically descriptive process, it should be obvious that captive bred specimens are unfit for use as a holotype or paratype.
With all of this in mind, several concepts should be accepted:
•It is apparent that simply stating that a specimen 'looks like a hybrid' has no validity at all, especially when using captive bred stocks for comparisons. The comparison specimens considered 'pure' are not valid by scientific standards.
•The simple fact that the specimen being accused of being hybridized is captive-bred renders any such statement unusable. The specimen itself is not valid by scientific standards to be used as comparison, even if against the holotypes of the species in question.
•With the above two concepts understood, the ONLY acceptable method of defining a specimen with certainty as a hybrid would be to perform DNA sequencing on the holotypes of the two species in question, as well as the potential hybrid.
Something to Consider
Is genetic purity really all that important? I mean we are talking about pet populations here. As discussed above, my cat is a hybrid and I love her all the same. In fact, I'm pretty sure I would not feel the same way if she were a pure African Wild Cat (Felis sylvestris lybica). I suspect I'd spend all my time getting stitches after trying to pet her....
But in the case of the cat, we have many perfectly happy owners of hybrids and known lines of pure race animals maintained by hobbyists and zoos. It'll be Ok to get to this point with reptiles too, we just aren't there yet - so the arguments rage on.
The Future?
At some point, the domestication of captive reptiles is going to be accepted as fact. There are already more known morphs of cornsnake available than there are for the parakeet (which is already considered domesticated by most states), With many agencies, evidence of hybridization plays a role in the definition of domestication and with current trends in legislation outlawing the keeping of wildlife, declaring our little herp friends as domestic animals may play a key role in preserving our ability to keep these animals.
As you've read, there are both good and bad points about hybridization to consider and in reality it is simply another tool in the toolbox of breeders that can be used wisely to create some new and unique herps for pet keepers to enjoy.
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCHybridization.htm
The mule, the hybrid steer, and hybrid corn are examples of hybrids produced by breeders, but some animal species may cross-breed in the wild, as the gray wolf and coyote sometimes do.
Hybrids are often named by the portmanteau method, combining the names of the two parent species. Illustrated here (Fig. 1), a zeedonk is a cross between a Zebra and a Donkey. Since the traits of hybrid offspring often vary depending on which species was mother and which was father, it is traditional to use the father's species as the first half of the portmanteau. For example, a Liger is a cross between a male Lion and a female Tiger, while a Tigon is a cross between a male Tiger and a female Lion.
Some other common animal interspecies hybrids are:
•Mule, a cross of female Horse and a male Donkey.
•Hinny, a cross between a female Donkey and a male Horse.
•Zeedonk or Zonkey, a Zebra/Donkey cross.
•Beefalo/cattalo, a cross of an American Bison and a domestic Cow. This is a fertile breed, although the two species are in different genera (Bison and Bos, respectively).
•Wolfdog, the cross between a domestic Dog and a Wolf. Fertile Canid hybrids occur between coyotes, wolves, dingos, jackals and domestic dogs. Depending on the author, dogs and wolves may be considered the same species, making wolfdogs a non-hybrid.
•Bengal cat, a recent cross between the Asian Leopard cat and the domestic Cat, one of many hybrids between the domestic cat and wild cat species.
Why Hybridize?
Hybridization between cultivars or varieties is often used in agriculture to obtain greater vigor or growth (heterosis). The first generation often shows greatly increased vigor and a better yield primarily because many genes for recessive, often deleterious, traits from one parent are masked by corresponding dominant genes in the other parent. Many of the hybrid reptiles produced in today's marketplace also show the positive effects of hybrid vigor. Larger babies, with stronger feeding responses, are often produced.
The offspring can display traits and characteristics of both parents. This is a common reason for hybridizing captive reptiles. Combining two forms with attractive appearances to create a third intermediate form which may be still more uniquely attractive is a common goal. Many breeders also use hybridization as a means to introduce desired mutations into species not currently exhibiting them. One of the first projects along these lines was the use of albino Ruthven's Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis ruthveni) to introduce the albino gene to the closely related Gray Banded Kingsnake (L. alterna). By carefully selecting the resulting offspring for appearance similar to the Gray Banded Kingsnake, breeders were able to produce albino specimens nearly identical to pure Gray Banded Kingsnakes.
The possibility of natural interbreeding and the production of fertile offspring is an indicator of the genetic closeness of the two species. An understanding of the true relationships between species can be enhanced through the process. DNA compatibility is certainly a more accurate indicator of close relationships than mere anatomy...
The Downsides
The offspring of an interspecific or intergeneric cross may be sterile. Sterility is often attributed to the different number of chromosomes the two species have, for example donkeys have 62 chromosomes, while horses have 64, mules and hinnies have 63. Mules, hinnies, and other normally sterile interspecific hybrids normally cannot produce viable gametes because the extra chromosome cannot make a homologous pair at meiosis, meiosis is disrupted, and viable sperm and eggs are not formed. However, fertility in both female mules and hinnies has been reported with a donkey as the father.
Loss of 'purity of race'. This is the most common argument presented against hybridization, and it has a bit of merit. However, such argument is often carried to extremes. It's generally broken into a few concepts, most of which are misleading:
•"The genetic purity of the race will be lost and the resulting specimens will be unfit for repatriation into the wild population". Lemme clue you in on this: Absolutely NO specimens ever kept in the pet trade will ever be used for repatriation of a species in the wild, period. First, releasing any animal into the wild without authorization is already illegal in most states and many countries. Second, projects along these lines are carefully monitored by the relevant AAZPA approved Taxon Advisory Groups and relevant wildlife agencies. The requirements to be met for such projects are exhausting and you can believe me when I state that your pet snakes will never be used for such purposes.
•"The genetic purity of the captive population will be destroyed forever". Often this argument is presented along with the idea that genetic information about hybrids sold will be lost or misunderstood by keepers acquiring future generations of these animals.
•First, let me state that anybody producing hybrids does indeed have an obligation to accurately label them as such to prevent accidental introduction of undesired or unwanted genes into the population. That's just professional etiquette. I think the same data should accompany sales of known pure races as well. We've got the same obligation to maintain details of purity as we do of impurity.
•Here's a secret for you: Unless your animals are pure descendants of known 'locality specific' specimens their purity is already highly questionable anyway. This is the reason that the TAG groups mentioned above were formed to oversee captive release projects. The minute you take your pure 'Jasper County Cornsnake' and breed it to a pet albino, you've lost the guarantee of purity forever, even though both are cornsnakes.
•"Hybrids are trash". Yeah, whatever. Sharing such a factually presented opinion carries zero weight with anybody. You should have joined the high school debate team, you might have learned a thing or two about presenting your point. Foreign car enthusiasts have been saying bad things about domestic vehicles for years now, and vice versa. Come to think of it, so have Ford vs. Chevy owners. Guess what: Nobody cares about your sticker showing some kid wearing a Ford shirt urinating on a Chevy when they are shopping for a new vehicle. There's millions of happy owners of all these brands of vehicles. Moral of the story: If you don't like it don't buy it. This is America and that's your freedom of choice. So is expressing your opinion, just try not to sound like an idiot or waste other people's time when doing so.
I Don't Like Hybrids What Can I do About it?
Honestly, the number of uneducated/unprofessional/unscrupulous dealers and breeders out there is huge and any form of monitoring is impractical. If genetic purity is important to you, spend the extra time and money seeking out specimens from reputable dealers. Is a dealer producing hybrids disreputable? Certainly not, provided he or she is accurately labeling the hybrids as such. In fact, such a dealer is probably among the most reputable, as such labeling illustrates the dealer's understanding of the importance of such accuracy in labeling. Thus you can probably put greater faith in such a dealer when he or she labels something as pure! There's no point in sending a scathing letter of protest to a dealer just because he produces hybrids. He's probable more educated and informed on this subject than you are, and you just come off looking like an idiot.
About 'Mystery' Snakes
All of the above discussion centers upon snakes that are known to be hybrids. But each year a number of potential new mutations are brought to light. Often such snakes are quickly labeled as hybrids by the public - without regard to some factual information that must first be considered. Let's talk about a few of those, using a snake suspected of being a hybrid between a Cornsnake (Pantherophis [Elaphe] guttata guttata) and Gray Ratsnake (Pantherophis [Elaphe] obsoleta spiloides) as an example:
•First, before quickly labeling some other breeder's efforts as "a trashy hybrid", you need to ask yourself if you are really an authority on the subject? Or even an educated non-authority? A specie is described to science by authorities on the subject, using only known locality specimens which are then held in museum study collections for permanent reference. The original specimen utilized to describe a new specie is designated as the holotype, while additional supporting specimens used are termed paratypes. These papers and specimens are the ONLY acceptable definition of a pure specimen, as defined by science. Anyone casting opinions on the purity of any specimen MUST consult these references before doing so or they have zero authority on the subject. In the case of our example snake, the following documents would be required: Elaphe guttata guttata (LINNAEUS 1758) and Elaphe obsoleta spiloides (DUMêRIL, BIBRON & DUMêRIL 1854). It would be wise to consult additional reference materials from subsequent authors as well.
•Second, notice that these papers and all subsequent papers require use of the original specimens collected from known locality for original and future discussion as reference. There's a reason for that. As future authors study the population dynamics of a specie, the group as a whole may be split into several sub-species or even species. The original names applied would then apply only to the specimens from the original population.
•In the case of our Cornsnake example, several subspecies have been described over the years, and some have later been split off into separate species. Some subspecies have later been discarded as being erroneous. Thus, 'pure' cornsnakes of today, may actually be intra-specific hybrids of former subspecies or future subspecies. Consider breeding say, a known locality Jasper County (Okeetee) Cornsnake to a known locality Pine Island Charcoal Cornsnake to create known 'pure' Charcoal Cornsnakes. Should future scientists decide the Pine Island population represents a new subspecies, your 'pure' corns would now be hybrids. It's all a matter of definition and viewpoint.
•My point here is that if you don't have a clear and factual understanding of what a pure Cornsnake or Gray Ratsnake actually is, you are certainly in no position to cast judgment on our example.
•Third, understand that NO captive bred snake can ever be used as a holotype or paratype for a specie or subspecies description. The reason for this is the possibility of non-natural appearance caused by embryonic development issues or mutation. Simply put, if a genetic mutation such as albinism can appear in captive specimens of our two example snakes, then other mutations can certainly appear as well. Some of these may not be apparent to the layman or even to the scientist, perhaps being subtle differences in structure, body shape, or scalation. Thus such specimens are disqualified from such use by necessity.
•An obvious example of this (related to our example, as well) are the occasional scale-less specimens of Cornsnake and Gray Ratsnake produced in captivity. With scale counts and scale patterns a vital part of the scientifically descriptive process, it should be obvious that captive bred specimens are unfit for use as a holotype or paratype.
With all of this in mind, several concepts should be accepted:
•It is apparent that simply stating that a specimen 'looks like a hybrid' has no validity at all, especially when using captive bred stocks for comparisons. The comparison specimens considered 'pure' are not valid by scientific standards.
•The simple fact that the specimen being accused of being hybridized is captive-bred renders any such statement unusable. The specimen itself is not valid by scientific standards to be used as comparison, even if against the holotypes of the species in question.
•With the above two concepts understood, the ONLY acceptable method of defining a specimen with certainty as a hybrid would be to perform DNA sequencing on the holotypes of the two species in question, as well as the potential hybrid.
Something to Consider
Is genetic purity really all that important? I mean we are talking about pet populations here. As discussed above, my cat is a hybrid and I love her all the same. In fact, I'm pretty sure I would not feel the same way if she were a pure African Wild Cat (Felis sylvestris lybica). I suspect I'd spend all my time getting stitches after trying to pet her....
But in the case of the cat, we have many perfectly happy owners of hybrids and known lines of pure race animals maintained by hobbyists and zoos. It'll be Ok to get to this point with reptiles too, we just aren't there yet - so the arguments rage on.
The Future?
At some point, the domestication of captive reptiles is going to be accepted as fact. There are already more known morphs of cornsnake available than there are for the parakeet (which is already considered domesticated by most states), With many agencies, evidence of hybridization plays a role in the definition of domestication and with current trends in legislation outlawing the keeping of wildlife, declaring our little herp friends as domestic animals may play a key role in preserving our ability to keep these animals.
As you've read, there are both good and bad points about hybridization to consider and in reality it is simply another tool in the toolbox of breeders that can be used wisely to create some new and unique herps for pet keepers to enjoy.
http://www.vmsherp.com/LCHybridization.htm
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Now, before some of you go... too long... I didn't read. I get it. That may in fact be why some of you don't understand that many pet corn snakes are not pure by the standards or definitions of purity I have heard implied or otherwise stated on this forum.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
It does not matter that you state that your picture collection is from the world wide web .....whose snakes are they? Whose images did you steal?
Those snakes belong to someone who is very proud of them.
Who are you to take their pictures, copy them, and not even label them as to whose animals they are?
All you do is babble endlessly and steal other people's images.
It's all you have ever done.
airenlow
hope is not a strategy
Joe Lopo was a man of mild temperament, short stature, and had the goal to become the world's fastest telephone eater. Though Lopo never knew even basic physics, he created a telescope capable of sighting the smallest hair on an alien who lived quite a few lightyears away. Joe Lopo quickly destroyed a large boulder and used the shattered remains to form eight small statues that strongly resembled tiny creatures being or related to the water flea. He placed them in a circular pattern to form a sort of shrine and placed the telescope in the middle of it. He then channeled the power of the stone water fleas into the telescope to view the power of the heavens. He was in a trance with the beauty of the mysterious dimension and didn't even notice the very large tornado heading toward him.The shrine was quickly demolished and the immediate withdrawl of power sent Joe Lobo into a lair of pitch blackness found to be a parallel dimension that caused anyone whose first name began with J, along with M,L, and Q, to become rather uncomfortable. Joe was also suddenly introduced to undroclamaticolomphasisciousy, the eccentric tapeworm with a strong morrocan accent."I'm undroclamaticolomphasisciousy, the eccentric tapeworm. I like pizza so how are ya doin?""I have no idea," said Joe. "I feel very uncomfortable."A small beep was heard. "Oh, that's me," said the worm. He pulled out his cell phone. "Hey, I like pizza so how are ya' doin?""You're too late," said the one on the other side of the line."I know I am!" he said, as he quickly hung up. "Anyway, I've come to meet you," he said to me."I suspected that suspicious suspectial suspision," I said. "Why did you come to meet me?""Because," said the tapeworm. "You are the chosen dude."A million tiny fabrics twisted in the shape of a microwave opened the space around me and started marching toward me, chanting, "Chosen dude, chosen dude, chosen dude...""Why am I the chosen dude?" asked Joe."Because," said the worm. He pointed to the tissue hanging out of my side pocket. "The sign.""The sign, the sign, the sign...!" chanted the fabrics."I'm afraid there has been a mistake," said Joe. "Please release me.""You shall be released," stated the worm. "On one condition: you assist this cat in consuming the sacred erasible pen."The fabrics gasped. Joe shoved the erasible pen in the cat's mouth. The cat suddenly morphed into a gargantuan capybara and exploded.The worm scowled at Joe. He was not supposed to complete the task."You, still shall not be released," said the worm. "We are dependent upon the powers of the chosen one. You shall remain with us!" But just as he said this, Minnie Turner, the girl who lived inside of a shoebox on a desert island for fourteen years in 1672, appeared in the dimension. She tainted the worm using a glass of grape juice and compressed the subatomic particles in the fabrics until a black hole formed. Joe and Minnie entered and vanished from the dimension, to enter a new one that resembleed the innards of a cable modem device."Why did you save me?" asked Joe?"Mark the wrong one," said Minnie.Then everything went "SKWADLIDOO!" and disappeared and Joe found himself alone, at his home on earth.Joe then ate a telephone.
http://supergiantbream.tripod.com/id1.html
http://supergiantbream.tripod.com/id1.html