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To tell or Not to tell? (Reptile Expo Honesty)

I've blacklisted one particular breeder that goes to the big show we have in Oct. not because he lied about pure vs hybrids, but because he sold me two snakes (caramel females), one died the first week and the other developed a kink, which was minor, but a kink nonetheless. He has no website, no business cards or other way to reach him. I learned that any seller without contact info or a guarantee is someone to avoid at all costs. I've heard other stories about him now, and I've started a list of who are good breeders at the local shows and who to never purchase from again. Obviously I wouldn't put anything past him.

It would be the same thing with someone deliberately lying or ignorantly misrepresenting snakes on their table. I don't have any problem telling someone that I think they're selling something that isn't what they say it is. I'm not going to make a stink, but I'll tell them I don't think they're right and walk away.
 
wade said:
I am a business man and what you guys are talking about is just business. You have got to sell product. Call it what sells. When the market swings to rat snakes, those corns will become great plains.
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Right here is where it sounds like you're advocating it. It sound like you would do it. I think you didn't mean it to come across that way, though.
 
norsmis said:
I disagree. I have done a lot of shows and most of the hybrids I have seen being pawned off as pure are from resellers. They buy the animals dirt cheap, not really knowing what they have and throw them in a deli cup on the table at a show. Does this take away the vendors responsibility? Absolutely not!
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I did say that some people sale for other people. But I did forget the guy that runs around after the shows buying what he can at the lowest price he can get it. So for that guy, no he probably don't have a clue what he has purchased. But I agree with you completely that it does not take away from his responsibility.

Fact of the matter is.. it would be nice if all were honest. But that is not going to happen. People should sell what they know they have as such. If they are unsure..then say so.

The "beast" pair mentioned in the beginning..the guy I bought them from was honest and up front. He told me where and when he got them. He also made it clear that he was sure they were mixed with some thing else. But the person selling to him wasn't that honest. They were sold to him as baby anery corns. I have now bred that pair. I have no clue what a corn was crossed with the get them. But I can guarantee I wont sell them as pure corn.
 
How do you guys feel about a "name brand" breeder buying up hatchlings at a show because they've sold out? Do they disclose that the animals they are selling are not of their bloodlines?

If I'm buying a "famous name" breeder's hatchling, it's because I value the lines that produced that animal.
 
Nanci said:
How do you guys feel about a "name brand" breeder buying up hatchlings at a show because they've sold out? Do they disclose that the animals they are selling are not of their bloodlines?

If I'm buying a "famous name" breeder's hatchling, it's because I value the lines that produced that animal.
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Good question. I speak from personal experience on this matter. Back in December I bought what was left of PJC Reptiles '07 baby corns. For each snake I sold, even at the show, the buyer was told I did not hatch those snakes and I made sure to state where they came from. IMHO people shouldn't take credit where it is not earned.
 
bekers71 said:
Good question. I speak from personal experience on this matter. Back in December I bought what was left of PJC Reptiles '07 baby corns. For each snake I sold, even at the show, the buyer was told I did not hatch those snakes and I made sure to state where they came from. IMHO people shouldn't take credit where it is not earned.
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I agree, Becky and I would be doing the same thing. Plus, if it turned out to be a dud, my name would be the one with the smear on the name, not the non-entity that I bought it from.
 
In my experience there are some people on this type of forum who are here trying to answer questions and chat with people of similar interests or just share information. I’ve been around long enough to remember when we had no Internet and there were few publications and information was hard to come by. Sharing experiences has been a godsend to many who would not find this kind of information elsewhere.

There are others on forums of this nature who like to split hairs and twist words so they can find fault and criticize what others have said. Maybe this is an ego boost for them. Make them feel like they are contributing.

Bottom line, the net result is that those who are actually trying to contribute soon tire of the bull. Tire of having words put in their mouths or twisted into new meanings. Tire of trying to justify what they have said. New people are afraid to make comments or ask questions because they have been slammed enough. Soon all this is left are the knit pickers picking.

I don’t mind being corrected when I’m wrong, nor do I expect everyone to agree with me. I’ve been on this forum long enough that I think people know the kind of person I am and what I represent. You don’t have to read between the lines to understand what I am saying. I am a plane person with no hidden agenda. Sometimes my patience grows really short.
 
This is one of the times where I think the ACR is a great thing. For the most part (even though many of my snakes are first-generation registrees), I'll be able to show evidence of hets. I register my snakes as an investment in the authenticity of the animals I produce.

I think a seller SHOULD be responsible for their product, but I also believe buyers need to know their stuff. I am ALWAYS wary when I first hear of some 'new morph'. A lot of people get annoyed when I start asking questions... but I rather annoy someone than get scammed. :shrugs:
 
I have been told that my statements could be misinterpreted. Let me quote a couple of lines from someone who I think very highly of.

wade said:
Yes dear, I have heard of false advertising. That is not what I said or was advocating.

Do you believe everything the salesman tells you? If you do, you are being very foolish. I don't say its a good thing, I'm saying that it is the way it is. Buyer beware.

It is the same at the snake shows. If genetics are really important to you, you won't spend a lot of time at the bargin table. If it is the wildest morph you have ever seen from a breeder you have never heard of and it only costs $50.00.......nuf said.
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Nanci said:
How do you guys feel about a "name brand" breeder buying up hatchlings at a show because they've sold out? Do they disclose that the animals they are selling are not of their bloodlines?

If I'm buying a "famous name" breeder's hatchling, it's because I value the lines that produced that animal.
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I did this once for a show I was signed up for and had nothing to sell, but since the hatchlings I bought to resell were from Carol H I think THOSE were more "name brand" than my own would have been, and I told the purchasers.
I may be more trusting than most but I personally tend to give people the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming the worst just because they are not a big name or on the BOI. I do however love the ACR registerable animals, if given a choice I would rather buy animals from ACR stock than not :)
 
Jrgh17 said:
This is one of the times where I think the ACR is a great thing.
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While the ACR may be a useful tool for tracing bloodlines, it is no more honest or filled with integrity than the original topic of this thread. The information in the ACR on each individual snake is only as accurate and truthful as the person entering that information. Whether it's a conversation at a show, online, or in a "registered" form, the person is only as trustworthy as the person is. Just because it's an "official" form with a seal doesn't make the information better. The person submitting the information is where the "better"-ness comes from, and quite honestly a form shouldn't be required if the person is trustworthy to begin with. :) (PS - That goes for the AKC, APR, SOB, BYOB, or whatever other organization or certificating entity you want to talk about!)

In no way am I advocating lying, but it IS the buyers responsibility to make their decision to purchase an item, be it an animal or a new car or a bag of chips! I work very hard to make sure that I'm doing what's right in my own operation. I make my choices of who I purchase from based on the research I perform. That's about as good as anything can get really. If I purchase something that was sketchy to begin with, well that's my own fault for handing over the cash. If I purchase something honestly, and it turns out to be a flat out dishonest lie, well then you have to attempt recompense however you can, but there is also a lesson learned with that experience as well. (Anyone order the X-ray glasses out of the back of a comic book? FYI, they don't work.)

Yes, it makes it hard on the new, honest person that's trying to start a hobby-business, but at the same time, I'm pretty proud of the hard work I've had to put in over the last several years to get where I'm at so far. There's always room for improvement! :)

:shrugs:
D80
 
You guys have hit a lot of vital issues here in our industry. I agree, those "vendors" are salesmen, and not herpers as you and I. Honestly, I believe that those vendors, and their affiliates could really care less what they are selling. It could be a used car for that matter, and they want to turn a buck quickly.
I never do business with people I don't know, and when I do I am a jerk on my end, everything goes as planned or I am worried and calling every 5 minutes until I am satisfied. I have been burned for 1000s of $, and I take a lot of precautions to ensure it will not happen again. That one of the reasons I am here actually, to get to know people in the Corn industry, and learn a little more about this unique species... (As most of you know, I don't currently own a corn snake, but that doesn't make me any less of a man (or woman in a lot of cases) ;) hehe )
Also, d80 gave a nice little bit of advice, EVEN STAMPED "DOCUMENTS" CAN BE FALSIFIED! Thats why I will never buy a "normal" het for anything, from anyone no matter how long I have known them. Its just me, maybe that will change but I do business that way. I like visual morphs anyway, so I don't feel like I am taking a loss - even though most of you that do hets, get kewler animals for cheaper... and good on you for that! Im just too scared. I have had documents, that I later had reviewed and turned out BAM! SCAM! DAM! I was so mad I could not believe it. If you are getting records from someone, chances are you don't need them because you should be trusting that person in the first place. Lets say Rich sold you a het animal, I have full faith that it would be what it was classified as, and I tink most of you do as well, so why get the certification? ((not that you would, but use that frame of mind).
The biggest thing here is that you caught his lies, and you knew the truth... And if we can all be educated to this degree it would put a lot of these shady vendors out of our lives! and into car sales!
 
Drizzt80 said:
While the ACR may be a useful tool for tracing bloodlines, it is no more honest or filled with integrity than the original topic of this thread. The information in the ACR on each individual snake is only as accurate and truthful as the person entering that information. Whether it's a conversation at a show, online, or in a "registered" form, the person is only as trustworthy as the person is. Just because it's an "official" form with a seal doesn't make the information better. The person submitting the information is where the "better"-ness comes from, and quite honestly a form shouldn't be required if the person is trustworthy to begin with. :) (PS - That goes for the AKC, APR, SOB, BYOB, or whatever other organization or certificating entity you want to talk about!)
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Okay... I'd agree that the ACR isn't a flawless seal-of approval. But I think it adds "substance" to a claim about a snake. Generally, a person who would lie about hets is not only a scumbag, but the type of person they are tends to come through. When I make a purchase, I check the BOI, I check any posts they made here (if they're a member), and I'll also google their business name.

For instance, I am personally rather wary about buying possible/probable hets. The ACR isn't a 'proof', but another supplemental material to use when making choices about a seller. I am much more comfortable buying a "66% het" snake from someone who has a website, is easy to contact, is active in the 'herp world', and is willing to show me details of the parents.

Now, playing devil's advocate, I would argue that the person could've easily lied about the details of the parents whether they're on the ACR or not. I'm relying on a simple principle here... people who lie are usually too lazy to make something like that stand up. :)

(Note: At no point did I say I would not make a purchase from someone with a good reputation if they were not ACR registered. I think everyone makes their own decision.)
 
When I spoke of Documents, I may have lead people down the wrong road. I was talking about all sorts of documents, shipping labels, vet certs, CITIES! everyting can be falsified, but with a little do-diligence, and some info tracking on the web you can almost certainly shoot down more than half the crud out there. Sorry about the confusion folks :/ Just know what you are buying (what it looks like, and EVERYTHING), And know who you are getting it from... Thats all I can say, and this goes for everything from snakes, to blenders.

(Can you tell im a skeptic?)
 
Beker's,

Did you see the vendor on the back wall, with the albino bull snakes/ gophersnakes ?
(The one next to the Herp society, or one vendor away from them, towards the vendor of which you speak.)

The one that had the hognose that they had either pestered till it played dead, or was dead?
Did you notice the 2 frogs on his table that were laying on their backs and panting heavily?
That is the kind of GARBAGE that I lookout for.
If a vendor has animals, like that, I tend to walk away quickly.

That show is FULL of Resellers, and very few actual breeders.

One other thing that bothers me about these shows.

WHY do certain vendors feel that it is alright to take an animal to a show, and display it on aquarium gravel!!! I ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to buy a snake, that is displayed on gravel. The reason for this being impaction. Sure they SAY they don't keep it or feed it on gravel, and it's just for the shows. But how do I as a buyer REALLY know this? And how far, and how long has this animal been on gravel? Why wouldn't they just line the container with colored wrapping paper, or shelf liner or???? This is truly one of my BIGGEST pet peaves.

I am VERY cautious when purchasing ANYTHING from a show. I did buy a snake at that show, but only because, I have been wanting one (the one you clued me onto) for a LOOOONG time, and it was from a vet, and a HECK of a deal. This snake is now in QUARINTEEN. Not because of who I bought it from, but because of whom may have handled it before I bought it. You never know who looked at what, from what vendor before they looked at your beautiful new snake.
 
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