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Guns

ciara said:
Maybe this is nit-picking, but the slippery slope argument, as it is often used, is a fallacy. Wikipedia has an excellent explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Basically, what is amounts to is that A does not inevitably lead to D. Sometimes there is middle ground to be found at B or C. If you can show that B and C will, without a doubt, occur then it is not a fallacy, but simply assuming A leads to D is.
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That's all very well and everything, but HISTORY has shown us ample evidence of this phenomenon in action. Perhaps the timeline is such that step D takes a rather long time to reach. For instance, how many steps and how much time was involved to go from the first gun law affecting gun ownership in 1934 with the federal tax stamp on full automatic weapons to what we have here now today? And I trust you noted my example concerning the income tax laws.

On a more local level, the state permit I have to pay for every year in the state of Florida in order for me to do my business has doubled in the cost, and the forms gotten more complex as the agency responsible requests more and more information every few years, and also places stricter requirements over time as well. Heck, this year for the first time I will need to undergo a hearing test as well as the regular vision test when I go to get my driver's license renewed.

The basic rule of thumb is to assume that EVERY law passed is the first step on a slippery slope. I believe you will be right much more than you will be wrong.
 
kathylove said:
"I will be running for the record for the most time spent in a rocking chair on the front porch....... "

Sure, for the first 6 months! But that will get old faster than you think, I bet! THEN you can run for something - change the world, lol! Give them the benefit of all of those years trying to make it as an entrepreneur in an increasingly hostile environment!
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Well, remember my talking about those squirrels that devastate my timber bamboo groves every Spring because the shoots always come up in the middle of breeding and egg-laying season? I'm too busy then to protect the bamboo shoots. One of these years, that won't be the case....... :madeuce: Then there's going to be a bit of "squirrel armageddon" around here.
 
Oh, I noted your example Rich. :)

I'm surprised you have to pay something every year in Florida. Here in Alabama we don't have to pay anything, unless you count the $20 for a CCP every year. Then there are places like NYC where it's virtually impossible to even own a pistol legally. I'm curious as to your thoughts on normalization of regulations. Do you think it would be good to get rid of the piece-meal rules in each state/city and bring them all under one umbrella, or is it better to let each place set their own rules?

And as a somewhat interesting tidbit, in my hometown last year a man was arrested for openly carrying a pistol at a national festival. The city it is held in has a 'no open carry' law, and they initially confiscated his gun. The firearm has been returned, but he is still charged with a crime, and is suing the city for violating his 2A rights by not letting him openly carry. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.
 
You know guys in my teen years, I was a complete Ayn Rand devotee. I read everything by her over and over from her fiction to her essays. I registered as a libertarian when I turned 18 and voted only for libertarians where I had the option and only for republicans where I didn't. All the way up to (and through) Clintons election I was voting libertarian. I didn't vote when it was Gore v Bush. I won't get too into what changed my mind on those things. Let's just say that it comes down to this argument- and some others like it. If I am an honest libertarian, I have to admit that there are no exceptions to the rules.
When the rule is all individual freedoms, the nuke and everything up to is has to be legal to any who can afford and hasn't shown themselves to be a danger. Nothing else follows logically. I admit the .50 is a gray area and as arbitrary as can be, but somewhere between that .50 and the nuke there are thousands of unacceptable options to me. And that's just talking about guns. Things aren't that simple to me any more (and I wish they were sometimes) but I just feel that some things that people call individual freedoms (weapons, and yes pollution) are misnomers. How can something be an individual freedom if it harms so many people? I'm not saying ownership of an M-16 by JKUN will harm me (unless I really get him riled up, lol-) I'm just saying that that taking back someone's right to hand grenades after they've misused them and they are now in MANY more hands is not acceptible to me.

So who determines what the acceptible line is? We do with who we elect and what we don't force them to repeal. That's the best way that things can be done under the circumstances IMO.
 
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KJUN said:
Gun rights have nothing to do with hunting. That's just a nice (to me) side effect.

This thread has taken 2 different directions: (1) why do you own them and (2)why SHOULD you be able to own them. 1 - this is the because I like them, they are fun to shoot, I can, etc. 2 - The justification and meaning of the 2A. Those are different conversations, and I'm not sure all readers see the differences - especially since not all are used to the American culture.

I believe I SHOULD own them because of #2 above. However, I do own them because, well, I LIKE them.....lol.
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I can now see the difference....
Thanks for taking the time out to explain your culture and the way guns fit into it.

Rich Z said:
The basic rule of thumb is to assume that EVERY law passed is the first step on a slippery slope. I believe you will be right much more than you will be wrong.
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That is so true.
 
Sorry if I've highjacked Mike, I just wanted to point out it's not a simple matter in this country either. ON TOPIC, I do feel strongly about our right to guns as well though, I just don't think that includes anything and everything.
 
tom e said:
Sorry if I've highjacked Mike, I just wanted to point out it's not a simple matter in this country either. ON TOPIC, I do feel strongly about our right to guns as well though, I just don't think that includes anything and everything.
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Hijack all you want Tom.... I asked a question and just sat back and read the replies,this has been quite educational for me.
I've also showed some of my workmates this thread and discussed 2A....
I must say that my view on Americans and guns has changed slightly....;)
I wouldn't want the UK to follow your example, but I also believe you shouldn't follow our example.... LOL
Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this debate.....:cheers:
 
tom e said:
Sorry if I've highjacked Mike, I just wanted to point out it's not a simple matter in this country either. ON TOPIC, I do feel strongly about our right to guns as well though, I just don't think that includes anything and everything.
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Tom, by the way, I agree with you that there needs to be a limit somewhere. I just don't know where that is and I don't know anybody I trust enough to decide for me.
 
ciara said:
Oh, I noted your example Rich. :)
I'm surprised you have to pay something every year in Florida. Here in Alabama we don't have to pay anything, unless you count the $20 for a CCP every year.
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I believe Rich was referring to the license for his snake-selling business. For a CCW license in Florida, the renewal fee is $65. The license lasts seven years.
 
That is one of the videos that you have to laugh at every time you see it. I will kill the first guy that dropped my rifle. Not really, do go nuts on me, I'd kill him with a ball bat. Never point a gun at anyone.
 
Wow what a thread! I'm with Mike on this one, it has been a real education reading this and the way it has evolved over the last few days.

I have shot many larger bore rifles with the military - I was never full time BTW, just a TA / reservist. However was classed as a marksman pretty much the first time I shot with them. This gave me the opportunity to shoot several 'specialized' long distance models as well as the standard issue items and some historic pieces. So I completely get the fascination with guns.

The laws over here for us legal gun owners are very strict and where I live are rigorously enforced, compared to you guys, well Rich to be precise, I _only_ own a 12-bore/gauge, well two actually. I get inspected regularly to ensure my cabinet is securely bolted to several walls, and the keys are also securely stored. This allows me to go out for 4 months of the year and bring back my own food (A true hunter gatherer, as my wife constantly teases. LOL.), and also control the vermin on the farm we live on - although mostly I use my air rifle for this.

The cultural divide though is wide, as most people in the UK I speak to seem completely against guns of any sort, and a high percentage are repulsed by the thought of actually killing your own food. I always find this strange coming from people that eat meat, although the modern dissociation between the animal and what you eat is staggering (not knowing that bacon comes from pigs was a recent survey stat I read).

We are fortunate in some ways to have these controls as it appears to have limited to a certain extent the 'going postal' crimes that happen. I can only think of two serious ones in the UK, and both of these resulted in our gun laws being tightened, and calibers being banned. For example you can only own a pistol up to .22 here. Whether the fewer occurrences we have is a direct relationship to the gun laws we have, or just that there are less nutters in the UK ;) I am not sure.

Truly fascinating debate, and enlightening.

Cheers

Ian
 
I grew up on a farm in Missouri and have had a gun in my hand for as long as I can remember. I started out on a bb gun, moved on to a .22 and then on to higher calibers and shotguns. I own several guns and while most are used for hunting some are used for simply plinking and relaxing.

I have helped others get into using guns for hunting and have not ran across a single person that doesn't understand the power behind them and the responsibility that comes with handling one if they choose to. Not all people should be required to own guns just as it shouldnt be required that nobody owns one.

Some people may argue this with me but, a gun has never killed someone. It is the person behind the gun that chooses to kill someone either by negligence, misuse or just flat out deciding that is what they want to do.

Another misconception that people have is that of the 'unloaded gun'. I have heard and read of many people handling an 'unloaded gun' that goes off. I think it is fair to assume that it was not unloaded. Any time I handle a gun I check to see if it is loaded and promptly unload (if needed) or load (if needed) depending on the situation. I have even had people comment on me checking whether a gun is loaded or not after I watch them check. I could see them move the action or check the magazine but I could not see for myself and promptly do it myself as the first thing when handed a gun.

As for the 'slippery slope' analogy I think that it is used too freely but still applies to any change. When you see a sign that says "floor may be wet" or something similar you take caution and make sure to not have your feet slide out from under you. Trying to prevent ammunition or caliber restrictions is trying to prevent our feet from sliding out from under us.

It would worry me in the UK knowing that a criminal could have a gun and that the police do not. When Missouri began to allow conceal and carry I was happy knowing that someone might have a concealed firearm to protect others if the situation calls for it. A responsible person is still going to be responsible with or without a gun and an irresponsible person will still be irresponsible with or without a gun.


I bought my first snake (an anery corn) back in December after talking the girlfriend into letting me get one. She saw how good of care I gave it and has since let me get a Dumerils boa and another future reptile (still deciding on a bearded dragon or a crested gecko). Many (if not most) gun owners and advocates view gun control the same as reptile owners do of reptile control. I would assume most reptile owners do not support banning the ownership of boas. Now whether or not a corn snake owner owns a boa it should be of interest that they are trying to ban ANY type of reptile.

A poem that I like and comes into play here is "First they came..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Kind of a long post for a first on this site.
 
Nanci said:
Would storing the keys in a snake viv be considered secure? :)
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May be if we kept pit vipers! However I may try that next time Nanci, and see if any of they dare to retrieve them. It would be funny, especially as I now know the firearms officer that visits!

Cheers

ian
 
I think the banning thing was never enforced anyway. Heck, there's a gun range in the national forest out here. Has been for as long as my fiance's family has lived in Alabama. Always good to get unused and unenforceable laws off the books.
 
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