The US flag is offensive ...

[vetusvates]

LOL... kinda funny that you mentioned "army code". When my dad was in the military, I used to read some of the "books" in his office. One of them mentioned flag upside down = distress.

As for the Confederate Flag... not the same thing... I find pornography offensive, but people still have the right to view it. I find using foul language offensive, but people still have the right to use it. I find stupidity offensive, but people have the right to make stupid decisions.

They probably could have got the guy for basically yelling "FIRE" when there wasn't one. It might be a stretch, but c'mon, there were other ways of dealing with this.

All that being said... this is NOT the "hill to die on" for the police department and I completely understand the need to "back off" if that is what they did.

Have to disagree with you here... The US Flag is a symbol of our country... HIS country. Flying it upside down is a signal requesting IMMEDIATE assistance... and anyone knowing so should/would rush to assist. His flying it as such was "unjustified"... although some were offended.

Flying a Confederate Flag, while offensive to some, can be someone's RIGHT. Lest we forget that the South was fighting for "State's Rights" amongst other things (and the North was fighting for other things and not necessarily "against" slavery). So, someone flying the Confederate flag may not necessarily be saying, "I believe in slavery". They may be saying, "I believe that States should have the right to determine their own destiny within the Union"... or they may simply be flying it because they're proud to be from the South.

Sometimes people read into things MUCH more than they should... As someone else said (can't look it up right now), if people would just EMPATHIZE with each other, and not take offense where none was given, then none of this would really matter... UNLESS someone just wants to get a "rise" out of someone else - and there's always that idiot in every crowd.

BTW, I will be going to an emergency room now (one of my girls has a "hurt" foot), so I won't be able to respond right away. LOL.

Fred, I cannot NOT salute you for the logic and reason of these two posts. I wanted you to be on line when I did it, too.
I have no military background, but know that an upside down flag is a serious/official cry of distress. Learned it in history or civics, long ago.
Duly repped for the wisdom and logic of your posts on this thread.

 

[Ricky87]

It's clear he did this to get attention, but isn't that the point of a protest? What's the big deal, anyway? Am I seriously to believe that the concern in this thread is that in the middle of American suburbia there is worry that this will dilute being able to use a flag to signal distress? The notion that raising a flag upside down is an effective way to get help in an emergency situation in a city or town is laughable. Also, why shouldn't we sympathize with him? The man's business venture is going under simply because of a licensing issue. Whether or not the group responsible for issuing liquor licenses is in the right, this really sucks for him.

It's not that an upside down flag symbolizes distress that's the issue. It's that he went out of his way to be a jerk on Independence Day in front of his neighbors, his family, and his community. I think it's ironic that law enforcement took down his flag by force, violating him his right to protest, but there's no real winners in this story. Both sides took ignorant approaches to resolve the matter, but the sad thing is that the guy who raised the flag will now we victimized. It is terrible the guy can't start his business, but maybe next time he'll do his research. I didn't read anything about this being discrimination, so clearly it's in the rules. He just didn't look first before he blew his money. The only person he should be mad at is himself.

I really don't give a crap if he goes under. I don't want people who dishonor MY country to succeed. Don't like that you can't get a liquor license? THAN GET OUT!!!

It's not like that at all. He has rights, even rights to be a fool, but he's and American citizen just expressing his freedom. Ya, in this case it got abused, but to say "Get out!" is a bit harsh. If America truly is a free country, than this shouldn't even be about rights. It's just about "Was this morally acceptable?!.".

 

[starsevol]

The Confederate flag is a symbol of southern slavery.



Alrighty. I won't pretend to understand that kind of extremism, so I don't really have a rebuttal for you.

For one thing, the confederate flag is NOT a symbol of southern slavery...it's a symbol of the south. It is only a symbol of slavery for those who see it that way.

And judging by many of your past posts, I think that there are ALOT of things about which you don't understand....

 

[Ricky87]

The Confederate flag is a symbol of southern slavery.

Agree 1000%. Some people see it differently, but this is as close to the truth as anyone knows it. Abraham Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery, and most of the men in the south rejected him, so then their was civil war. The Confederate Flag was born from this point in history, and it symbolizes the lingering desire of some people who wish America was the way it used to be, primarily due to slavery. For me I, I see no heritage in it that is not corrupt and tainted, and I get offended every time I see one.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

The Confederate flag is a symbol of southern slavery.

And once again, we all knew it was only a matter of time before you appeared to stir the pot.
The Confederate flag is a part of American history, whether you like it or not. It is NOT a symbol for southern slavery, as much as extremist minority groups would like to believe. There is a very rich history behind it, and that would obviously be evident to anyone that researches it, instead of trolls for a fight on a snake forum. What's the unofficial mantra of this forum? "Do your research". Sounds like you need to take that advice to heart.

 

[vetusvates]

With my clients (and often with people on the streets, strangers) I've never been one to get between an idiot and him making a total fool out of himself. I know...I know...kind of twisted dry humor. But there is more to it.
With my clients...their remorse, regret, embarrassment, and rebound collective peer pressure....often takes on more value as "consequences" than any punishment I could dole out.

Besides, I'm having a great Saturday,...and no single idiot with one upside down flag is gonna effect that in the least. Yesterday, today, tomorrow.

And for the record, the confederate flag is not (so simple as) a symbol of southern slavery. Most southerners who fought in the Civil War were poor white farmers...who'd never owned a single slave, and might never have even seen or met one.
This is from a product of the deep south, and a native of a state famous for a large prominent free black and creole population, long before 1861.
In this state, and I suspect others (one or both Carolina's, I think), there were blacks and creoles who owned plantations and slaves, long before the Civil War.

 

[starsevol]

And once again, we all knew it was only a matter of time before you appeared to stir the pot.
The Confederate flag is a part of American history, whether you like it or not. It is NOT a symbol for southern slavery, as much as extremist minority groups would like to believe. There is a very rich history behind it, and that would obviously be evident to anyone that researches it, instead of trolls for a fight on a snake forum. What's the unofficial mantra of this forum? "Do your research". Sounds like you need to take that advice to heart.

Robbie, how can one so young have so much wisdom?

 

[Ricky87]

Agree 1000%. Some people see it differently, but this is as close to the truth as anyone knows it. Abraham Lincoln wanted to abolish slavery, and most of the men in the south rejected him, so then their was civil war. The Confederate Flag was born from this point in history, and it symbolizes the lingering desire of some people who wish America was the way it used to be, primarily due to slavery. For me I, I see no heritage in it that is not corrupt and tainted, and I get offended every time I see one.

I just put this post and noticed it got people upset, so just know I'm not "stirring the pot". I see people in my area with this flag and I know how it's intended. Their is only one flag that governs America now and that is the American Flag. We're a country in progress, and that flag expresses nothing to me except a regression in humanity. Don't get riled up, that's just how I see it. I know if you dis-agree your not racist, and you just view it differently, that's all!

 

[Nova_C]

And once again, we all knew it was only a matter of time before you appeared to stir the pot.
The Confederate flag is a part of American history, whether you like it or not. It is NOT a symbol for southern slavery, as much as extremist minority groups would like to believe. There is a very rich history behind it, and that would obviously be evident to anyone that researches it, instead of trolls for a fight on a snake forum. What's the unofficial mantra of this forum? "Do your research". Sounds like you need to take that advice to heart.

"We all knew"? Who are you speaking for in this case, other than yourself?

At any rate, the Swastika has been in use for a very long time, notably by the Hindu religion. However, if I was to fly a flag with a Swastika on it, would you consider that offensive?

Even if you may not, enough people would that I would be in trouble for doing so even if my intention was not to directly reference the holocaust. The fact of the matter is that just like the Confederate flag, the Swastika is held in different regard by different people, but to say only minority extremist groups would consider it offensive is naive. To many, many people, inside the US and without, the Confederate flag symbolizes the history of slavery in the United States. You may not agree, but that doesn't change the fact that enough people are offended by it, much like the Swastika, as to make the image itself offensive.

Like the Swastika, groups may fly the Confederate flag out of innocence without taking on the connotations borne out of the darker parts of the symbol's history, but it is impossible to dismiss the fact that many will find it offensive.

Also, the question asked was "I would really like to know what is offensive about the rebel flag." I answered that question; That is, the Confederate flag is associated with the history of slavery in the American south. Accusing me of trolling because I answered that question is immature, Robbie.

 

[tsst]

It's clear he did this to get attention, but isn't that the point of a protest? What's the big deal, anyway? Am I seriously to believe that the concern in this thread is that in the middle of American suburbia there is worry that this will dilute being able to use a flag to signal distress? The notion that raising a flag upside down is an effective way to get help in an emergency situation in a city or town is laughable....

I have made no secret of my belief that our flag has far deeper meaning than use as a pawn in a personal whine fest. And to blatantly use it in a way that has such austere symbolism in my mind not only disrespects the flag but all that it stands for. It is interesting that you were quick to point out the use of the confederate flag as offensive but seemingly have no issue with the offensive use of our national symbol. A symbol that countless Americans have paid the ultimate price defending. :shrugs:

...Also, why shouldn't we sympathize with him? The man's business venture is going under simply because of a licensing issue. Whether or not the group responsible for issuing liquor licenses is in the right, this really sucks for him.

I would not want to give up our rights to protest but I have absolutely no sympathy for someone that would choose to openly denigrate our national symbol and what it stands for in such a disrespectful way. If the business were so absolutely dependent on a liquor license he should have secured it prior to his major investment. He has but one person to blame for making an unwise investment and it is not anyone forever resting at Arlington nor anyone wearing a uniform of the US military today.

 

[Ricky87]

I have made no secret of my belief that our flag has far deeper meaning than use as a pawn in a personal whine fest. And to blatantly use it in a way that has such austere symbolism in my mind not only disrespects the flag but all that it stands for. It is interesting that you were quick to point out the use of the confederate flag as offensive but seemingly have no issue with the offensive use of our national symbol. A symbol that countless Americans have paid the ultimate price defending. :shrugs:

Disagree!.

I would not want to give up our rights to protest but I have absolutely no sympathy for someone that would choose to openly denigrate our national symbol and what it stands for in such a disrespectful way. If the business were so absolutely dependent on a liquor license he should have secured it prior to his major investment. He has but one person to blame for making an unwise investment and it is not anyone forever resting at Arlington nor anyone wearing a uniform of the US military today.

Agree!. There; that was simple enough.

 

[MinLynn]

And for the record, the confederate flag is not (so simple as) a symbol of southern slavery. Most southerners who fought in the Civil War were poor white farmers...who'd never owned a single slave, and might never have even seen or met one.
This is from a product of the deep south, and a native of a state famous for a large prominent free black and creole population, long before 1861.
In this state, and I suspect others (one or both Carolina's, I think), there were blacks and creoles who owned plantations and slaves, long before the Civil War.

Thank you Eric! DYK that I have an ancestor that fought in the Civil War on the Confederate side!*gasp,shock,horror!* Guess what? From everything I've looked up and found out about said ancestor, he never owned a slave and was a poor farmer living in Tennessee who died in the Civil War. So let's say I wanted to get a Confederate Flag tattooed on me in rememberance of his death like those people do in honor of loved ones who died in our current war? Would I be shamed for it? Would I be called a racist? Or would I just simply be proud to be from where I'm from and honoring a family member?

 

[starsevol]

Thank you Eric! DYK that I have an ancestor that fought in the Civil War on the Confederate side!*gasp,shock,horror!* Guess what? From everything I've looked up and found out about said ancestor, he never owned a slave and was a poor farmer living in Tennessee who died in the Civil War. So let's say I wanted to get a Confederate Flag tattooed on me in rememberance of his death like those people do in honor of loved ones who died in our current war? Would I be shamed for it? Would I be called a racist? Or would I just simply be proud to be from where I'm from and honoring a family member?

Well Mindy according to Ricky87 and Nova and the like, you would be a shameful racist or something...apparently...

 

[MinLynn]

And that's a sad thing isn't it? That I should feel ashamed of my ancestors past and be ashamed of where I'm from because of something that happened in the 1860's? He fought for his country and his beliefs just like every American Soldier is doing now. Yet, I get dirty looks or looks of pity when I talk about the fact that I have an ancestor that fought and died for the Confederacy as if I am a supporter of slavery or a racist. Will we ever know what was going through my ancestors head while he was fighting? Of course not. But he may not have being fighting for the right to own slaves (since he had none) but fighting to keep what little he had.

 

[Nova_C]

Well Mindy according to Ricky87 and Nova and the like, you would be a shameful racist or something...apparently...

Why don't you quote me where I said anything remotely like that. Please.

I would not want to give up our rights to protest but I have absolutely no sympathy for someone that would choose to openly denigrate our national symbol and what it stands for in such a disrespectful way. If the business were so absolutely dependent on a liquor license he should have secured it prior to his major investment. He has but one person to blame for making an unwise investment and it is not anyone forever resting at Arlington nor anyone wearing a uniform of the US military today.

It's interesting how you equate disrespecting the flag to disrespecting those who've fought under it's banner, but fail to acknowledge that the man is a veteran who has fought under that banner.

If we're to give soldiers special respect, than I choose to give them the special respect that is, If they've fought and bled for a nation than they have more right than anyone to disrespect that nation in any way they see fit.

 

[starsevol]

I think it's rather amazing what young people are led to believe in the name of "being pc"...
It's like they are trained to kneejerk without knowing the whole story,...
but I guess ignorance really is bliss, it's much easier to take what is spoonfed to you rather than actually THINK.

 

[starsevol]

Why don't you quote me where I said anything remotely like that. Please.



It's interesting how you equate disrespecting the flag to disrespecting those who've fought under it's banner, but fail to acknowledge that the man is a veteran who has fought under that banner.

Sorry Nova, I was wrong about that. However you DID once say that a homeowner should not have to right to own a gun for defense and should never use a gun on someone who has broken into his home in the middle of the night....an opinion that I still find utterly ridiculous...btw...

 

[tsst]

Disagree!....

That's your right. Fought for and defended by those that also died protecting the flag that symbolizes that very right and our freedoms.

...It's interesting how you equate disrespecting the flag to disrespecting those who've fought under it's banner, but fail to acknowledge that the man is a veteran who has fought under that banner....

I failed to do so and will at this point and I also thank him for his service. Being such he should also have even more understanding of what he is doing when flying the flag in distress.

...If we're to give soldiers special respect, than I choose to give them the special respect that is, If they've fought and bled for a nation than they have more right than anyone to disrespect that nation in any way they see fit.

As I have already stated I would never want his right taken away. But I will never agree that having the right to be utterly disrespectful equates in anyway to a virtuous act.

 

[alan]

Man, these threads never get anywhere.
Ricky, you're sort of contradicting yourself.

"Another generalization, though. It's never healthy to take a sample from one area and think it holds true across the nation"

"It's way to dangerous to put a label on all of a particular sect just because of commonalities you percieve from a fragmented society you observe."

On the one hand earlier in this thread you criticized someone for applying a blanket statement for a group by observing a small part of that group, now you say "I see people in my area with this flag and I know how it's intended". You use this to condemn the flying of the flag. Intended where, just there, or all over the US south? Your opinion is based on your perception of just the people in your area. You absolutely know that flag means the same thing to all of them by assuming(do you really know?) what it means to the people in the small group that you observe and you would like it banned because your limited observations have determined that as a whole people fly that flag because they support the idea of slavery? I know what you meant but it's a big generalization to apply it across the board.

You also stated that you hate the confederate flag because it symbolizes slavery and the oppression of peoples, and you uphold the American flag. I'm guessing you're not of the race indigenous to the area the good 'ol U.S. of A is built on but doesn't that flag deserve your ire also? I may be guilty of generalizing by saying this but it seems like the same kind of prejudice to me. If you apply that to one racist group and their symbol how can you overlook the others?

Nova_C: see above. I think the people who's ancestors lived on these lands before the US flag came along may have issues with it being flown everywhere also. They were and are given no choice but to see it because a large group may fly the American flag "out of innocence without taking on the connotations borne out of the darker parts of the symbol's history". It also happened to the Beothuk people in another area of North America, they no longer exist. That same area eventually moved several other aboriginal peoples from their lands to reserves as we did in the US and tried to outlaw many of their customs. The country that this occurred in now flies a maple leaf flag for their symbol.

It happens all over the world with all kinds of symbols, they mean different things to different people. In my country if someone abuses your symbol or uses a symbol you don't like you have every right to protest that action but if they break no laws that's all you can do.
I do know that some symbols are covered by "hate crime" laws but I'm not sure how they can justify the application of that point of law. I'm guessing it's a "squeaky wheel" thing or it's judged on intent, either one sounds a little too open to interpretation for me. I'm going to look that up, now it bothers me, I'm not sure how we can legally do that. Anybody know?

 

[Michael823]

They make underwear with the American flag on it, where's all of the protesting for that. This man was said to have fought for our country, and now we're armchair quarterbacking his rights to protest. I never see people having outrage over real problems like homelessness and child abuse, but bring up the flag and everyone starts humbugging. Seriously, no body here has the right to be outraged over what this guy did, they can find it personally offensive, but to be outraged paper soldiers over this is a little dramatic.
Nova C made some great points about the confederate flag, as did Robbie and Vestuvates. I personally find it offensive when I see the Confederate flag, probably because I live way up north, and the only Confederate flags I see people having are huge, like a big F-U. But people have the right to fly them, just as someone has the right to fly an upside down American flag if they choose.