The US flag is offensive ...

[vetusvates]

I can't think of any worse torture.

Nor can I at the moment. That would be sheer Hades.
Like The Twilight Zone or something.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Hmm, I do.

I agree that a symbol can mean many things to many people and no single group can monopolize a symbol. However, I also believe that it is either foolish, naive, ignorant or provocative to dismiss the opinion of a significant number of people. Enough people believe that the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery to essentially make it true.

Here's the thing. I would never assume that someone who displays the Confederate flag as a supporter of slavery outright, nor would I assume they're a racist. My initial foray into the resurrection of this thread was based on my constant confusion over the emphasis placed on the integrity of the US flag. That is, to me, a symbol should not carry that kind of power. You can take that belief and apply it here as well: To say that someone who flies the Confederate flag is a slaver or racist using only the flag itself as evidence of that claim would give the symbol undue importance.

I respect a nation's flag as a symbol, I also respect the people that protect that flag. I love my country and I display my nation's flag with pride. But I draw the line at judging someone not only by the flag they fly, but the manner in which they fly it.

I would like to rep you for this part of your post, because it was very well written, and also seems very thought out. Unfortunately, I gave out too much reputation in the past 24 hours.

Addendum: Some of you accuse me of starting fights in a thread in which there has been no fighting as of yet. You then call me a troll, accuse me of saying things I have not said and call my posts stupid and meaningless. Whose trying to start a fight here?

I'm also going to acknowledge this, against my better judgment. Yes, I called you a troll and of starting fights. Let's not sugar-coat it, we know you were talking about me. My main point was that I had only seen you in heated threads and involved in e-fights. I don't think I've ever even seen you post saying "Nice snake" or "Congrats on the pippies" or anything else of that nature. That was my opinion. Fortunately, everyone is entitled to one, otherwise we wouldn't have threads like this.

Geez, I hope so!. I don't make ignorant statements like that to come in 2nd place. Seriously; I stated it offended me. Clearly you have an opinion and that's fine, but the Confederate flag is offensive to me. The "learn your history" argument is redundant, and I will never appreciate or respect any of what that flag stands for. You can't tell me that flag wasn't a symbol of the Southern Confederacy, and you can't tell me the Southern Confederacy wasn't willing to go to war to maintain slavery. It was designed in the appeasement of a racist institution, period!.

Now THAT statement is just plain ignorant. What about the Northern slave owners? The US as a NATION (that means both the CSA and the Union) was a bunch of slave owners. That's a fact, not an assumption.
You want to talk about slave owners? Why not talk about the current slave owners? The ones who buy children on the black market (from ALL nations)?

I hear ya, Eric... its just that threads like this one... where arguments are so circular and WE KNOW they'll be circular just go on and on. LOL.



Sometimes, I feel like this is where I'm heading - many people have recently called me a very mean person. LOL. Fortunately, I still have the ability to come back around and apologize for some small rudeness that I've offered - but it is getting harder and harder to do so. LOL.

Anyway, I do know this... there were REASONS for me to avoid political threads and threads like this. :laugh:

You?! MEAN?! Who said that? Smack 'em for me. You're a VERY nice man. Don't let anyone tell you different.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Oh, and since Lambchops is here, I guess it's time to start the pandas!

 

[danielle]

drooling over snake......

 

[Michael823]

That is one sweet looking snake, nice spin on the happy panda.

 

[Michael823]

It is only offensive by those who choose to view it offensively and not necessarily for just reasons but out of ignorance.

In fairness, wouldn't it be equally ignorant to dismiss their feelings about the Confederate flag based on your experience. Unless you've been victimized, bigoted, or verbally abused by the face of the Confederate flag, you can't say their is no just reasons to be offended.

It also comes with meanings associated with slavery and racism by those who choose to see those meanings.

People didn't just wake up and decide to take offense to the Confederate flag, they do not "choose" to be offended, they genuinely are offended. The KKK adopted the Confederate flag, as did many other racist groups, and perhaps that has more weight than people just "choosing to be offended.
There are many words used for hate as well, that have perfectly innocent definitions, but are used as hateful. Do people choose to be offended by a word defined as "A student at a British public school who is required to perform menial tasks for a student in a higher class."? or a word defined as "A female canine animal"?
They are terms used to express hate, far removed from their original definition, just as the Confederate flag has been expressed as a symbol of bigotry by some.
Sure you can have your own feelings towards a historical symbol, but to say those who are offended are ignorantly choosing to be, is just as, if not more ignorant

And wasn't the snake used as a symbol of the devil and hell?! Doesn't the image of a snake still symbolize that for a lot of religious fanatics? Gosh, I sure hope I'm not offending them!

The snake has a stigma against it, it has no factual bearing that relates it to evil. The connotation that the Confederate flag holds to SOME people is far deeper that an innate fear, it represents actual discrimination in some peoples eyes.

 

[Nova_C]

Robbie, I think you and I have reached an accord. Will wonders never cease.

Nova, I have been reading all of this silliness, much of which was my own contribution, all along.
But I had to say what I had to say to underline the pettiness and lack of foundation of your argument.....because you so militantly insist on hanging on to this narrow, shallow, small, over-simplified idea of what you have stereotypically imprinted in your own mind regarding the silly confederate flag.
We've tried to DE-demonize the darn thing for you, but you resist in a very unenlightened jejune manner.
I honestly insist on thinking more highly of you than this.

I'm going to quote myself in regards to this, Vetusvates:

I agree that a symbol can mean many things to many people and no single group can monopolize a symbol. However, I also believe that it is either foolish, naive, ignorant or provocative to dismiss the opinion of a significant number of people. Enough people believe that the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery to essentially make it true.

Here's the thing. I would never assume that someone who displays the Confederate flag as a supporter of slavery outright, nor would I assume they're a racist. My initial foray into the resurrection of this thread was based on my constant confusion over the emphasis placed on the integrity of the US flag. That is, to me, a symbol should not carry that kind of power. You can take that belief and apply it here as well: To say that someone who flies the Confederate flag is a slaver or racist using only the flag itself as evidence of that claim would give the symbol undue importance.

I respect a nation's flag as a symbol, I also respect the people that protect that flag. I love my country and I display my nation's flag with pride. But I draw the line at judging someone not only by the flag they fly, but the manner in which they fly it.

Explain to me how I'm being narrow-minded with the notion people shouldn't be judged solely on the flag they may fly or the manner in which they may fly it. Also, I'm not militantly hanging on to anything - the Confederate flag is seen as a symbol of slavery by enough people to make it true. I've already explained that I wouldn't accuse anyone of supporting slavery just because they display the Confederate flag.

If you want to change the perception of that flag then I'm the last one you should be railing against. I only say it's a symbol of slavery because so many people believe that. If you want me to agree that it's not then you have to change the opinion of the public at large.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Robbie, I think you and I have reached an accord. Will wonders never cease.

Shocking, I know! LOL

 

[Ricky87]

Now THAT statement is just plain ignorant. What about the Northern slave owners?

If the Southerners had won the war slavery would have persisted even longer, maybe even for a lot longer. That statement isn't ignorant, and those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I'm expressing how I feel about it, and I made it a point to say that those who disagree are not racist, they just view it differently. I just read Nova C's post, so I'll quote it, because I thought it was well stated!.

Explain to me how I'm being narrow-minded with the notion people shouldn't be judged solely on the flag they may fly or the manner in which they may fly it. Also, I'm not militantly hanging on to anything - the Confederate flag is seen as a symbol of slavery by enough people to make it true. I've already explained that I wouldn't accuse anyone of supporting slavery just because they display the Confederate flag.

If you want to change the perception of that flag then I'm the last one you should be railing against. I only say it's a symbol of slavery because so many people believe that. If you want me to agree that it's not then you have to change the opinion of the public at large.

Exactly!. The Swastika had the same affect. A symbol that was adopted for different intentions, that now becomes synonymous with the events in which it was used. Maybe some peoples great-great-great-great grandparents were southern Confederates, and maybe they fought the war for a multitude of reasons, but slavery was where the ethical lines of the war were drawn. For millions of Americans, especially those who's great-great-great-great grandparents were slaves, this flag is a symbol of that oppression. Dis-agree if you want to, but it's the truth!.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Exactly!. The Swastika had the same affect. A symbol that was adopted for different intentions, that now becomes synonymous with the events in which it was used. Maybe some peoples great-great-great-great grandparents were southern Confederates, and maybe they fought the war for a multitude of reasons, but slavery was where the ethical lines of the war were drawn. For millions of Americans, especially those who's great-great-great-great grandparents were slaves, this flag is a symbol of that oppression. Dis-agree if you want to, but it's the truth!.

The bolded section is the main area I disagree with you on. The war was NOT JUST about slavery. Yes, it played a minor role in the war, but no, it was not the main cause/driving force behind it.

 

[Ricky87]

The bolded section is the main area I disagree with you on. The war was NOT JUST about slavery. Yes, it played a minor role in the war, but no, it was not the main cause/driving force behind it.

For starters, let me start by saying I respect your opinion, but from that basis I dis-agree with you. At least in this sense; I understand people see the civil war as the Southerners who were fighting for less government interference, something people in today's age can understand and even sympathize with. Slavery, to some, was only a small portion of the issue the Southern Confederacy had with the North, and therefore the Confederate flag cannot possible be nailed down to encompassing just one thing. The way I see it, though, is that the Confederacy was entirely for slavery, however small an agenda at the time, and that flag embodied that ideal fully. Yes, to some this generalizes their ancestors, and it was about more than slavery. None of your fore-fathers may have ever even owned slaves, but at the end of the day they fought for those who did.

The Confederate flag takes us all back to a very savage time in American history, and it has no value in today's society. Yes, it is historical, but it should never be glorified, nor should what it stands for. If people want to form a new Confederacy that takes the non-judgmental ideals of the old Confederacy and turns it into something purely political than that's their right. I just believe everything to do with the Southern Confederacy should put in history books only, and people today should in any way try and resurrect it, or use it!.

 

[vetusvates]

Nova and Ricky, I don't want to argue any more. I embrace the fact that some people find the confederate flag offensive. I wish they didn't, I wish you didn't, but I accept that you do.
The people who do are coming from a place (state of mind) different than mine, but I have irksome things and pet peeves that I'm sure do not irk or do not peeve others.

There are a lot of things I wish I could change in the world,...undo even. Make people unbothered or unhurt...on many levels.
At least you know where I stand, which hopefully is as a decent person who would never use the confederate flag, or any other symbol or word, to anger you or hurt your feelings. And if somebody even tried it, I'd be on your side(s) fighting the idiot.

Please call me Eric, I put it in my sig to make me more of a real person.
You guys have a good rest of your Sunday.

 

[tom e]

Sorry for bumping this if I've caused a fight guys.. I actually had read that article and thought of this thread, but was thinking of the earlier portion where it was still about the flag..
I don't know why talking about the flag always seems to bring up race issues. Maybe that's just the thing about symbols. You can't 'keep' them. They have a life of their own and just become different things to different people just about as soon as they are released on the world.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Fight? What fight? This here's a debate!

 

[Camby]

If the Southerners had won the war slavery would have persisted even longer, maybe even for a lot longer. That statement isn't ignorant QUOTE]

Again, it IS an ignorant argument. Slavery was not economically responsible and would have ended no matter the reults of the war. The country became more independant on machinery and this included the planting, growing and harvesting of cotton. Again, do your research to become educated before spouting off what you no doubt were taught in a public classroom as being "Accurate". News Flash, the public school teachings/agenda is not is typically missing crucial and factual information.

Slavery was not the issue of the war and you will never find the information to prove that or convince me of that. The year prior to the war, the South was responsible for nearly 60% of the US's gross exported product. "Basically", the North was trying to force us to sell product to them at certain prices or export through their ports so they could then make money on the exportation. The south refused to do so. Remember, at that time, the states had more rights than the Federal government (in regards to states issues). South Carolina had enough of being told what they were going to do, when they were going to do it and how they were going to do it so they declared their independance from the US. For several months they stood alone as a country. Finally, they had enough of the US controling the port of Charleston via Fort Sumter. They felt it was their fort and the US refused to leave it so thus the war started.

Hopefully people are still researching the July 4th question. For those of you who find the "rebel flag" so offensive and so related to slavery, then you would likely be more offended at the celebration of July 4th. We'll see I suppose.

I won't post more on this issue ( I hope), it isn't really oing anywhere anymore, I just hate seeing people continue to perpetuate non educated information.

dc

 

[Michael823]

At least you know where I stand, which hopefully is as a decent person who would never use the confederate flag, or any other symbol or word, to anger you or hurt your feelings. And if somebody even tried it, I'd be on your side(s) fighting the idiot.

Please call me Eric, I put it in my sig to make me more of a real person.
You guys have a good rest of your Sunday.

Great Sunday Eric, how about yours?

The south has a lot of great traditional values, and you always share it in a positive way. It's too bad those great values are sometimes overshadowed by people who are evangelical, racist, or other, because I think fundamentally they are values this country should look back on with pride. I feel different about the Confederate flag than some, I can't help it that I see it the same as an upside down American flag. I totally see where you guys are coming from, but certain people are relatively insensitive to the negative effect it has on people, and are giving the Confederate flag an in your face quality. Even the American flag can offend me in some ways, and I don't like it representing an "if you don't like us, then get out" mentality.
Sometimes I get into these debates, and often take a more bold approach to share my opinion than I should. But in this entire thread I've learned a great deal, and would probably even share a different insight than I have in the past, should this same situation come up again.
I look back on the original thread that turned into a debate on affirmative action, etc... and think slightly differently than I did before. I found myself making excuses for other people's problems, when I don't ever make excuses for myself. I also found myself saying how much harder it is for minorities to live in this country, and I think back to how impossible it was for my single mother of two disabled children, worked full time for beans, no government assistance, and she never made any excuses. My point is that I've learned a great deal about these threads, and although we don't always agree, and it sometimes gets heated, we all make great points that should be taken into account.

 

[Chip]

I want everyone to notice that this thread has reached 28 pages and until now, I haven't posted. Thank you, carry on.

 

[Cornsnake124]

i have officially gotten sick of this thread. I will keep posting if something major is posted , but I recomend you http://blog.esaba.com/projects/catphotos/catphotos.php?image=4