Coming Soon to my Backyard.

[mike17l]

I'm in the middle of reading a couple of Richard Wolters books right now. Second time through on one of them. Can't pick this boy up on day 49, but it will be day 51.

I have 3 of his books, good sound advice from that guy.

 

[tstephe3]

Going to take any blue bowl shots of the new pup when you get it?!

LMAO.. Thats good. That'd be funny, your wife would be like what are you doing to the poor thing.. Your reply would be pictures!

Anyway, awesome lookign dogs! Congrats! I've always wanted GSP's but I wanted to like 2 or 3 different kinds of dogs. These guys are built the same and great looking. I think I just found the 2nd kind of dog I want!

Have fun with them!

 

[Michael823]

Congrats! Vizsla's are gorgeous dogs, and sound like the perfect non smelly, non shedding pooch seeing they have no undercoat. Good luck! I was curious what breed you would choose, but that sounds like the perfect choice for you.

Make sure you invest in a good e-collar, I really like the Dogtra brand.

I wouldn't recommend the e-collar though, there are far better training methods than that. It's a smart breed, and a young eager to learn puppy, it should be all about positive reinforcement instead .

 

[mike17l]

I wouldn't recommend the e-collar though, there are far better training methods than that. It's a smart breed, and a young eager to learn puppy, it should be all about positive reinforcement instead .

Have you ever trained a bird dog? If the trainer knows how to properly use an e-collar, then it is the best tool he has.

 

[Drizzt80]

it should be all about positive reinforcement instead .

Positive reinforcement, by itself, will not train a dog (or a child) adequately.

D80

 

[ForkedTung]

Positive reinforcement, by itself, will not train a dog (or a child) adequately.

D80

No doubt about that!
Gorgeous dogs, gotta love that coppery-bronze color, very unique!

 

[mike17l]

Positive reinforcement, by itself, will not train a dog (or a child) adequately.

D80

Just think, if you gave your kid a snickers bar every time he did something good, you could possibly have the worlds fattest kid. :madeuce:

 

[stephen]

E Collar

Well unless your parents trained you with a taser gun I think its cruel,your dog looks very unhappy.
I wouldnt recommend it,unless of course your animal is just a tool, might as well go all the way and use a steel toe boot.unch:

 

[MinLynn]

I love Vizslas! Always have. They're beautiful dogs. I also have no problems with e-collars. Personally we use pinch collars because we don't let the dogs roam out of a fence but if we did I'd use an e-collar with no problem. The pinch collars were awesome in helping us leash train. I've heard they're cruel but my dogs have shown no ill-effects from using them.

 

[Medevil_Nuke]

New Puppies is always a good thing!

 

[Michael823]

Just think, if you gave your kid a snickers bar every time he did something good, you could possibly have the worlds fattest kid.

And if you zapped a child every time they did wrong they would end up very untrusting. Plus daily exercise easily burns off any extra weight that treats may add. I've always used positive reinforcement with my German Shepherd, and she is in peak physical condition, as well as being as well trained as they come.
There's a huge difference in raising children and training dogs. Not to mention, positive reinforcement training isn't all about treat rewards. I know the e-collar can be used to train a dog for certain behaviors if used properly, but positive reinforcement training works much more effectively. Especially being a puppy, and family dog first, you don't want a relationship built on intimidation and dominance.
I am not trying to debate training philosophies, more recommending positive reinforcement training over fear based training. I guarantee it builds a better relationship between dog and owner, and will create a better family dog. An older man I know trains seeing eye dogs, and has trained the best of the best dogs using only positive reinforcement, so being a bird dog really doesn't make a difference on what type of training should be used.
At the end of the day it's up to the owner to decide, and I am simply making a case that positive reinforcement is the best route to go. Bird dogs are especially respondent to this training, as they have above average prey, scent, and food drives. I've seen way too many dogs become fearful, and even aggressive towards people by the use of non positive training methods. And have yet to see one dog that hasn't become well trained using positive reinforcement.

 

[MinLynn]

I guess you probably think it's cruel then too that we actually had to install a low-voltage electric fence around the bottom of our dogs' run because they were digging out of it and taking off? It's run on a 9 volt battery and I've touched it myself and it feels just like when you touch a light socket. It took a week and each dog getting zapped by it. My dogs quit digging and I've since shut it off. Oh and they all three love me to bits still! Everybody else,not so much but that's more because they were raised to guard the farm and house and be wary of strangers. One of our dogs is also a trapping dog so she has to have special training too.

 

[Michael823]

I guess you probably think it's cruel then too that we actually had to install a low-voltage electric fence around the bottom of our dogs' run because they were digging out of it and taking off?

I'm sure you absolutely love your dogs, and would never intentionally be cruel to them. But I think an electric fence is not the proper way to train a dog not to dig, and is fairly cruel. Most dogs dig because of lack of getting out, and enjoying new territory, or just because they're bored. All an electric fence does is control them with fear. I have a German Shepherd who would most likely dig, scratch, and chew all of the time without proper exercise and stimulation. But with positive reinforcement, and lots of exercise, she is very well behaved in the yard, and never attempts to leave. The yard represents fun for her, so she wouldn't ever want to leave. I would recommend lots of outside stimulation, and playing in the yard to make it a place they only associate with fun and enjoyment

My dogs quit digging and I've since shut it off. Oh and they all three love me to bits still! Everybody else,not so much but that's more because they were raised to guard the farm and house and be wary of strangers. One of our dogs is also a trapping dog so she has to have special training too.

I'm sure they do love you very much, it's just a matter of using positive training to get the best out of them instead of fear based training. I don't have to train my dog to be weary of strangers, nor would I want to. We have a very close bond, and she can easily distinguish a threat from a non threat. I love the fact that people can safely enter my house, and she is wonderful around strangers. But should anyone be a threat, I know she would react accordingly. Not because I trained her to be weary of strangers, but because she literally knows my every emotion, and easily detects hostility or discomfort.

 

[MinLynn]

Erm,well my dogs live outside permanently so they get lots of outside time! LOL! And that wasn't my choice. I couldn't keep them in the house. I don't care if there was a raging storm outside. They wanted OUT. But their mother had always lived outside and so had their father so I don't know if that's something that can be inherited or not. Our dogs are trained to be wary of anybody unless we are with that person. If they see us with them than they may bark but won't go after them. Now if we aren't within sight then if they were to get loose of their yard then I can't make any guaruntees. I don't know. I know we love 'em and they love us and that's all that matters. If they were house dogs and not farm dogs then we would've trained them differently. We wouldn't have even dreamed of having dogs for this purpose if we hadn't had someone break beer bottles in our kids playground in the middle of the night,throw bricks through our windows and spray paint our truck with a whole dictionary full of dirty words. We live in the country. It's not like we have neighbors to witness any of this or warn us of it. Now we have dogs to do that.

 

[mike17l]

Well unless your parents trained you with a taser gun

No, no taser, but they did whip me with a belt or switch (having to go outside and get your own hackberry switch was the worst, if you got a big one it hurt like hell, if you got a small one, well then dad got to pick a new one for ya, and that never ended well, lol) when I misbehaved. I mean, we could get into the whole spare the rod spoil the rod discussion, but were talking about dogs, so back to the topic at hand.

I think its cruel,your dog looks very unhappy.
I wouldnt recommend it,unless of course your animal is just a tool, might as well go all the way and use a steel toe boot.unch:

Unhappy? to someone who knows dogs, he would like like a wore out dog. Every one of those pictures was taken after he had spent half, if not the whole day running in the mud, running across a field, swimming in a pond/lack/bay, pointing, retrieving, ect.

And if you are close enough to use a steel toe boot, just use a pinch collar, they are great as well.

And if you zapped a child every time they did wrong they would end up very untrusting. Plus daily exercise easily burns off any extra weight that treats may add. I've always used positive reinforcement with my German Shepherd, and she is in peak physical condition, as well as being as well trained as they come.
There's a huge difference in raising children and training dogs. Not to mention, positive reinforcement training isn't all about treat rewards. I know the e-collar can be used to train a dog for certain behaviors if used properly, but positive reinforcement training works much more effectively. Especially being a puppy, and family dog first, you don't want a relationship built on intimidation and dominance.

Nobody said to shock the heck out of a puppy or even use an e collar on a puppy.

Now about the relationship being built on intimidation and dominance, well for a dog that is part of the family, that is basically what you want. Now you can go too far with this and create a dog that will consistently cower away from you, but like I said earlier, if you know what you are doing, then this is not a problem. Caesar Milan, for what he is worth, has at least one thing right; the relationship an owner has with their dog(s) is a pack relationship. As the "pack leader" you are just that the leader, the alpha member of the pack. As such, you should rule with an iron (electric) fist. I have seen many many dogs that did not have this in place (in particular, many vizslas and weimaraners) and everyone that I have seen like this was the "alpha" or "pack leader" of the house. Whats the problem with this? Plenty, the dog thinks that they are in charge, they are the dominate member of the relationship, they run all over the owner, digging, chewing, peeing, ect. In a relationship with a dog, someone (you or the dog) will be the dominate member, let it be you. Neither of my dogs chew, dig, or eat horse crap. How do you recommend that I could have stopped my dogs from eating horse crap using "positive reinforcement"? Please tell me.

I am not trying to debate training philosophies, more recommending positive reinforcement training over fear based training. I guarantee it builds a better relationship between dog and owner, and will create a better family dog. An older man I know trains seeing eye dogs, and has trained the best of the best dogs using only positive reinforcement, so being a bird dog really doesn't make a difference on what type of training should be used.

That's all fine and dandy in a perfect world where the dog is by your side on a leash 24/7. How do you recommend I positively reinforce my dogs to do the right thing (stop, retrieve, change direction, go farther, come back, stop chasing a rabbit, ect) when they are 10-200 yards away in thick South Texas brush or 100-500 yards away across an ag field or 50-300 yards away across a lake, bay, or swamp? Please tell me how to do this. The fact is, as a working bird dog (as well as a member of the family) it is a far more efficient use of time and energy to use an e-collar as an aid in training.

At the end of the day it's up to the owner to decide, and I am simply making a case that positive reinforcement is the best route to go. Bird dogs are especially respondent to this training, as they have above average prey, scent, and food drives. I've seen way too many dogs become fearful, and even aggressive towards people by the use of non positive training methods. And have yet to see one dog that hasn't become well trained using positive reinforcement.

Like I said earlier, have you ever trained a bird dog? Not just basic retrieving, I am talking about the whole enchilada; basic retrieval work, advanced retrieval work (multiple marks, blind retrieves, hand signals, ect), proper crossing and distance when hunting upland birds, pointing and retrieving said upland birds, blood trailing, as well as being a member of the house.

 

[Michael823]

Caesar Milan, for what he is worth, has at least one thing right; the relationship an owner has with their dog(s) is a pack relationship. As the "pack leader" you are just that the leader, the alpha member of the pack. As such, you should rule with an iron (electric) fist. I have seen many many dogs that did not have this in place (in particular, many vizslas and weimaraners) and everyone that I have seen like this was the "alpha" or "pack leader" of the house. Whats the problem with this? Plenty, the dog thinks that they are in charge, they are the dominate member of the relationship, they run all over the owner, digging, chewing, peeing, ect. In a relationship with a dog, someone (you or the dog) will be the dominate member, let it be you.

That doesn't require an iron fist, it requires respect. I have the full respect of the purest of pure bred German Shepherds, which has all come through positive reinforcement.

Neither of my dogs chew, dig, or eat horse crap. How do you recommend that I could have stopped my dogs from eating horse crap using "positive reinforcement"? Please tell me.

Easy, "leave it". You walk the dog on a leash beside intriguing things, food, toys, and work your way up to horse poop as they progress. You say "leave it" as the dog walks past the item, keep walking, and then say "yes" followed by a treat reward. Repeat this on leash to build the strength of the command, rewarding the dog for every successful leave it. Before long the dog will look to you for the reward once you walk past these tempting items, and you praise the dog for the good behavior. Then you build this command off leash, until the dog just knows to leave it on command without a treat reward. No zapping, pinching, involved, and the dog gets positive affection for the good behavior.

That's all fine and dandy in a perfect world where the dog is by your side on a leash 24/7.

I have a very muscular dog that nearly weighs as much as I do, and loose leash walking is a breeze. It's easiest if taught early, but doesn't require pinch collars, chokers, or zap collars. A great tool is a Halti, or head harness. If the dog starts to tug you simply change direction, eventually the dog will learn to follow your movement. Also using "watch me" helps a great deal, by rewarding the dog when it makes eye contact, than the dog will follow you even more closely. Eventually you can take treats out of the equation, but at first it helps to build the command stronger, and lots of praise for good behavior is a must. I also use a back pack on walks, which helps a lot for draining energy, and giving my dog a job on walks, in which she feels obligated to walk beside me with a loose leash.

 

[KJUN]

I'm glad that the conversation has went away from 2 guys over-interest in my sons genitals - especially with one named Michael. That's just creepy. Whew.

No, no taser,

Right - the taser analogy was idiotic. An ecollar hurts, but it doesn't make the dog shake on the floor, urinate all over itself, possibly die from a heart attack, and maybe even pass out. An ecollar is a belt - a taser is a chainsaw. PLUS, anyone who talks about training dogs should realize that the dog can be warned with a good collar without being shocked. Once they learn the warning, that is usually enough to change their behavior. I've never used an ecollar, but I have used the electronic collars to prevent barking. Both hurt (I've zapped my leg), but I wouldn't call it cruel. The taser analogy is just plain idiotic.

It does make me think a bottle of salt water and a 9V battery would be a good way to teach a teenage kid to wake up on time in the morning, though.....lol.

This analogy is as idiotic as comparing the removal of a little skin with painkiller for the purpose of definitive health or religious benefits to the chopping off of bone without pain killer for (usually) aesthetic reasons. The tail lopping - which makes an ecollar look like a gentle pat on the head in my eyes - may have limited benefit in some dogs in some areas for some uses, but even that can't reliably be supported.

And if you zapped a child every time they did wrong they would end up very untrusting.

..and if they never learn that bad actions have bad consequences, they end up voting for ObamaCare and tax-and-spend economic policies!

 

[Drizzt80]

I repeat: (Notice the highlight this time since it was ignored the first time.)

Positive reinforcement, by itself, will not train a dog (or a child) adequately.

D80

I wouldnt recommend it,unless of course your animal is just a tool, might as well go all the way and use a steel toe boot.

A hunting dog is a tool, so is a sled dog, so is a seeing eye dog, so is a family dog. They all have different jobs. There's no reason a "tool" can't be a member of the family either. There's plenty of "tools" around here that are still accepted. I refer you back to my quote above. There's a few children in today's society that need a good solid spanking. Not a deforming near death beating. A spanking. An attention getter. A statement of who's the boss and who's the child. Mike referred to the wolf pack. Even the alpha dogs bite their packmates to get their point across, when needed. Oh so cruel.

I love Vizslas! Always have. They're beautiful dogs. I also have no problems with e-collars. Personally we use pinch collars because we don't let the dogs roam out of a fence but if we did I'd use an e-collar with no problem. The pinch collars were awesome in helping us leash train. I've heard they're cruel but my dogs have shown no ill-effects from using them.

Thanks Min!

New Puppies is always a good thing!

Can't wait! Thanks.

D80

 

[dave partington]

One of my blind friends has one of those for a guide dog. Excellent personality and a much more professional 'working companion' then most of the labs I've seen. A real first rate dog in my opinion. Congrats on the beautiful litter.

 

[mike17l]

Michael, I will repeat my question, apparently you missed it somewhere, Have you ever trained a hunting dog?


Other than you having not done that, and thus having absolutely no room to speak on the subject, and only adding opinion when you have no experience, lets look at some other issues.
Think about this: what would happen if police officers never gave out tickets for speeding? What if there were posted speed limits, but tickets were never issued? Would people drive the speed limit? I know I have had a few tickets myself, what goes through my mind when I see a speed limit sign and notice that I am speeding? I remember when I got the ticket and I remember that I didn't like the feeling (fine and defensive driving) I got when I got the ticket. I then correct my actions and go the speed limit, preventing another ticket. This is what is happening when one is properly using an e-collar, negative associations are made with an item, an event, a behavior, ect and behavior is modified.

Let me expound on Brent's comments (which as he noted you have ignored):

I repeat: (Notice the highlight this time since it was ignored the first time.)

Positive reinforcement, by itself, will not train a dog (or a child) adequately.

D80

No one has said that an e-collar is the only good training method, only that it is an excellent training aid, especially for dogs that are required to "work" at a distance greater than "heel" (or off leash if you will). No one has said that positive reinforcement is bad or that it is not recommended, we have not said that, we have only said that the e-collar is a good aid. You have apparently assumed that we put an e-collar on a dog and electrocute it into submission, constantly sending low voltage into the dog. You have no idea how anyone here trains a dog. You are painting with a broad, assuming that anyone who uses an e-collar is a dog beater, dog fighter, I could go on and on, but you have assumed we are basically an all around "bad guy". All this is based on your opinion of training bird dogs, which, you have admitted you have never done.

Again, an e-collar is not the only tool, just a tool, like all dogs are meant to be.