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Coming Soon to my Backyard.

I have called no one a bad guy here, and I think all of my posts have been presented very well. I am also not ignoring the question "have I ever trained a bird dog?". I have never trained a bird dog, but positive reinforcement methods aren't exclusive to non bird dogs. I have a Dachshund which is a hunting dog, and have trained him to ignore his hunting instincts using positive reinforcement. Just as I have trained a German Shepherd to use her protective instincts with discretion using positive reinforcement. You can get every desired behavior out of any breed of dog using positive reinforcement, which includes any field work and hunting that a bird dog may do.
Maybe I just see dogs differently, and in a more appreciative manor. To some they are just tools, and I don't agree with that ideology at all. To me they are loyal companions, and are just as much a part of my family as their human counterparts. To compare the punishment in law enforcement to dog punishment is silly. Dogs don't rationalize like humans, and therefor can't be effectively trained through negative consequence in the same way.
 
Congrats on the new puppy Brent. Very nice breed too, one of my friends hunts his Visla & she is 16 years old. Still acts like a pup.
 
I understand why some people think the e-collar is a great tool, especially for dogs that are relied upon to fulfill a certain task. It's a quick way to assert yourself onto a dog and imprint your dominance. If used correctly it can be affective, but it can also be dangerous and should not be at the top of the list of tools to use; Obviously, because it is electrocution and can cause physical damage, but also psychologically as well. For the everyday person who just wants a well behaved family dog, e-collars aren't the best tool. That is unless you live in an area with extreme traffic, because cars are more dangerous than e-shocks could ever be. It can really irritate a dog, though, and even if you are the pack leader in it's eyes, your child or your neighbor might not be and that dog might snap at them. It's best to be as hands-on as possible and positive reinforcement helps both the person and the dog learn as well as curbs most aggression issues.

You seem to be very excited about your new Viszla and I'm very happy for you!. Dog's are the best things in the whole world, even better than people, and best of luck with the training!. From trainer to trainer I advise string cheese; Dogs love it and you don't have to use much either. I can get about 30 paws, 10 roll-overs, and 6 dances for a piece half the size if a blueberry!. Also, "Dog Whisperer" is a must. Cesar Millan is a genius and I've seen a few Viszla's on the show already!. Good luck, and congrats on the new puppy!!!.

..and if they never learn that bad actions have bad consequences, they end up voting for ObamaCare and tax-and-spend economic policies! ;)
So are you offering to buy 67 million e-collars for each of us who voted Obama. If so than have fun trying to afford your own healthcare after you sport that bill!.
 
Maybe I just see dogs differently, and in a more appreciative manor.
That statement, and others like it, is you insinuating that using methods other than positive reinforcement is wrong and bad.

Dogs don't rationalize like humans, and therefor can't be effectively trained through negative consequence in the same way.
This statement proves our point. If dogs can't rationalize like humans, then the opposite of your statement is also true. They can't effectively be trained through positive consequence in the same way. You've just put them in the position of what they are. Instinctual. Good equals good, repeat. Bad equals bad, don't repeat. Thanks for proving my point.

Congrats on the new puppy Brent. Very nice breed too, one of my friends hunts his Visla & she is 16 years old. Still acts like a pup.
Thanks Tim. That coincides with what I've heard about the breed.

D80
 
It's a quick way to assert yourself onto a dog and imprint your dominance.
Dominance is everything when dealing with dogs. Everything. Owners who are not the dominant force in the pack have unruly dogs that are spoiled rotten and misbehave.

Obviously, because it is electrocution and can cause physical damage, but also psychologically as well.
You display your ignorance of the tool. It's not electrocution. Look it up.

and even if you are the pack leader in it's eyes, your child or your neighbor might not be and that dog might snap at them.
You do not understand the pack mentality, in the least. The pack leader is obeyed. Period. If not, they are run out of the pack. Look it up.

I can get about 30 paws, 10 roll-overs, and 6 dances for a piece half the size if a blueberry!.
Lucky for my dog, he will not be trained to do any of these "parlor tricks" regardless of whether he learns to hunt or not. For all this talk of positive reinforcement and peace and harmony with the dog, it's pretty ridiculous seeing a dog prance and dance around, especially when compared to a well trained hunting dog retrieving game for the LOVE of the job. Or watching sled dogs race and haul for the LOVE of the job. OR watching a seeing eye dog lead its master for the LOVE of the job. :shrugs:

D80
 
That statement, and others like it, is you insinuating that using methods other than positive reinforcement is wrong and bad.
But I did not call anyone a bad person because they believe what they believe. Positive reinforcement is the best method of dog training, there really is no debate.

This statement proves our point. If dogs can't rationalize like humans, then the opposite of your statement is also true. They can't effectively be trained through positive consequence in the same way. You've just put them in the position of what they are. Instinctual. Good equals good, repeat. Bad equals bad, don't repeat. Thanks for proving my point.
D80
Dogs don't rationalize punishment like humans do. They do in fact rationalize being treated with love and praise for good behavior, this is a proven training method. A dog won't think what they did was bad, like eating horse poop for example, they will just not repeat a behavior that got them shocked, yelled at, beaten, etc.. They will however realize what good behavior is, and will do anything to please their family, and that is why dogs make the perfect companions.
This really isn't a debate, and the "you just proved my point" rhetoric doesn't work in this discussion. No one can stop you from training your dog through fear and intimidation, that is your responsibility to provide the training you see fit.
 
Dominance is everything when dealing with dogs. Everything. Owners who are not the dominant force in the pack have unruly dogs that are spoiled rotten and misbehave.
Sure, but you do not have to be dominant and intimidating to be the leader of the pack. This is such a misconception that positive reinforcement spoils dogs, or that they only work for treats. I almost never treat my dog anymore due to her allergies, and she behaves wonderfully. She walks on leash with zero tension without the use of a prong collar, although she could easily overpower me with her muscle tone and size. She stays right in the yard, and knows all of the recall, self discipline, and voice commands that she should without ever using negative reinforcement.
Even Caesar Milan says he isn't a dog trainer, he rehabilitates dogs. You are getting a puppy, respect and praise will go much further with it than dominance. Tools like shock collars should not be used for training, and reserved only to restrict an aggressive dog, or a dog with a behavior problem that could cause harm to itself or others as a last case scenario. Not for casual training, especially that of a puppy which are eager to learn and please through positive reinforcement.
I think all to often people threat these devices like training tools, and is really detrimental to a dogs developement. Positive reinforcement is training that requires patience, and the utmost dedication, and is the best way to train a dog. Other methods are quick fixes, and should only be used as a last resort.

You do not understand the pack mentality, in the least. The pack leader is obeyed. Period. If not, they are run out of the pack. Look it up.
Correct. But you are implying that positive reinforcement training isn't conducive to being the pack leader. I have a pack including two German Shepherds, a Maltese, and a Dachshund mix. My German Shepherd being hyper intelligent, and as much work training as any dog. All of them listen on command without treats, and they all get along. If this is not understanding how the pack works, I'm not sure there is such a thing.

Lucky for my dog, he will not be trained to do any of these "parlor tricks" regardless of whether he learns to hunt or not. For all this talk of positive reinforcement and peace and harmony with the dog, it's pretty ridiculous seeing a dog prance and dance around, especially when compared to a well trained hunting dog retrieving game for the LOVE of the job. Or watching sled dogs race and haul for the LOVE of the job.
There is no question that a well trained working dog is a sight to see, it's the training methods used to enforce their behavior which is in question. I train my dog to do all sorts of tasks, the least of which is parlor tricks. It takes the same level of training to have a great Frisbee dog that will wait, lay down while the Frisbee is thrown, and retrieve it on command. But the training is done through positive association, and games that the dog enjoys. I love watching the AKC dog hunting championships, and agility competitions.

OR watching a seeing eye dog lead its master for the LOVE of the job. :shrugs:
D80
You will never see a reputable seeing eye dog trainer use anything other than positive reinforcement training. It is the highest level of training, and requires the fullest bond between dog and owner. That is why they use positive reinforcement, it is the best way to reliably train a dog that must assist a challenged person.
 
She looks abused and unhappy,doesn't she?
100_0478.jpg


Sorry I just had to post that.
 
Brent, I'm excited to see the puppy. I love dogs. I had a professor who raised champion field-competing labrador retrievers. That may not be how you say it. (Avec proper use of shock collar.)

Incidentally, I've had pits, labs, spaniels, etc.,.....but I wouldn't begin to presume to advise you, Mike, or KJ on how to train your hunting dogs.
 
She looks abused and unhappy,doesn't she?
Poor thing! You should be ashamed of yourself. By the way, am I the only person that actually reads someone else's post in its entirety, digests it, and then responds?
I four-pete:
Positive reinforcement, by itself, will not train a dog (or a child) adequately.

D80

Rickael. I'd love to see the field work test results/certification of your wonderful, highly trained German Shepherd. Please. I would love to know how you're going to positively reinforce keeping your dog from sniffing out a porcupine. Please.

I'm sure you love your dog very much and I'm sure that it responds to your wishes with no faults whatsoever, but I'm sorry, in lieu of your ultimate knowledge on dog training (and everything else it would seem :bowdown: ), I prefer to use the combination of training methods provided by Richard Wolters (Careful, he does recommend raising your hand to your dog as needed! That may offend you.) and others. Especially considering their years of training expertise and knowledge compared to your dog being able to dance for string cheese. :roflmao:

For your reading and listening pleasure. I'm sure you won't, but oh well.
http://www.familydogs.com/informationPage.asp?whichOne=4
http://www.pacesettertrainingkennel.com/electric_collar.htm
http://www.uwsp.edu/PSYCH/dog/LA/castle3.htm
http://leerburg.com/qaelectric.htm

You, have a nice day. My pup will be fine, loved, cherished, healthy, spoiled, a hard worker and will get the rod IF needed. Because I am the pack leader. A dog learns via experience, good AND bad, just like children.

D80
 
Brent, I'm excited to see the puppy. I love dogs. I had a professor who raised champion field-competing labrador retrievers. That may not be how you say it. (Avec proper use of shock collar.)

Incidentally, I've had pits, labs, spaniels, etc.,.....but I wouldn't begin to presume to advise you, Mike, or KJ on how to train your hunting dogs.
Thanks Eric! We are really looking forward to the challenges of training him to be a member of our family as well as hunting. :D

I've yet to own a dog trained for hunting, but have hunted behind them. Their love of the work is majestic and a sight to behold. The precision required to be good at what they do is phenomenal. They turn on a dime. They point without a flinch. I've not seen a single "house" dog with their precision.

D80
 
I just remembered something I wanted to post earlier! My mom used the whole treat method of training her dogs to go potty outside and sit and stay and all that. Well, to this day those dogs have to go "potty" about every 20 minutes(they get a treat afterwards),beg while people are eating(of course they are sitting pretty while doing so), and have on numerous occasions taken food off the kitchen counter if nobody is in sight. That alone turned me off of training with treats. My dogs have always gotten a "good girl" and scratch on the head or behind the ears when being rewarded for something they've done well instead of a treat.
 
You, have a nice day. My pup will be fine, loved, cherished, healthy, spoiled, a hard worker and will get the rod IF needed. Because I am the pack leader. A dog learns via experience, good AND bad, just like children.
D80
Exactly. "The dog will get the rod if needed", case and point. It shows you have little to no experience in dog training, and would rather take the quick approach of intimidation and fear mongering. That is not being a pack leader, although it does derive from the primitive way of dealing with dogs. I am sorry people can't put in the extra work of training the right way, but that's life.
 
Well,he could also bite him like a real pack leader would do! And I'm sure he doesn't mean a rod literally! I've had to smack my dogs on the noses before as I'm sure a lot of people have had to do. I'm not talking like a punch to the dog or anything but a light smack on the nose with a really firm "NO".
 
My dogs have always gotten a "good girl" and scratch on the head or behind the ears when being rewarded for something they've done well instead of a treat.
Which is still positive reinforcement. That is mostly the reward my dog gets, she rarely gets treats. The point is just to train a dog through praise and positive reinforcement. Your dog certainly looks happy. I wouldn't have used an electric fence, but that was your decision, and you clearly love your dogs. Not too many people know how to make their commands clear enough through positive reinforcement, that is usually why they resort to other ways of dealing with the problem.
My big issue with this whole debate, is that it's a puppy we're talking about. MinLynn, you did what you did to curb a learned behavior problem, and although I wouldn't have taken that approach, it was to stop an adult dog, with learned behavior issues (scratching, digging).
This is a puppy, with no behavior problems, and will easily take to positive reinforcement training. Instead it will be formed through fear, and intimidation tactics, as opposed to spending the extra time to properly train.
 
I have not had a dog in a long time, so my opinion here may not amount to much. I have seen the way alpha wolves disapline others in their pack. Seems to me to be a "pack leader", you do need to show a little force once in awhile.
 
Keep in mind,too, when I said electric fence I explained the whole line around the bottom of the fence is run on one 9volt battery. You're making it sound like I used the fencing you use to keep cattle in! That's not the case and it only had to be used for a week before I was able to shut it off.
 
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