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Studies on dog behavior!
- Thread starter Michael823
- Start date
mike17l
Self-Admitted Duckoholic
A "lurcher" is that correct? It looks like a fast dog, that would be neat to see it chase rabbits. When I was in high school we would run greyhounds on jack rabbits and coyotes in ag fields, that was always fun.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Absolutely right, she's a knee-high lurcher. I'd have taken her to the stables tomorrow, plenty of young rabbits about, but she has her first season so I'll wait until she's finished.
I've taken fresh rabbit skins home to her a couple of times so she's got the taste of them.
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
That's one of the single most great things about this site (except the cornsnakes of course!). The "lock thread" hammer and "delete thread" hammer isn't used maliciously like at other sites which will remain nameless.
D80
Michael823
New member
Wow, five more pages in a few hours. I was supposedly burned my Tsst, still confused how, please explain someone? This thread is kind of a thread of banter, not exactly relating to the topic at hand. I've sincerely tried offering my in depth opinion, and was really only at fault for not stating "In My Opinion" clearly enough. As a possible future trainer this will be a lesson that I must learn, as I can't help any dog if I can't get through to the owner in an appropriate way.
I think the sarcasm and ridicule of my character has gone far beyond acceptable retaliation for people being offended by what I may have said. But to be fair, I will take it with a grain of salt and offer a gentleman's truce (ladies too), and apologize for my involvement!
Mike, aside from the difference in training techniques, I would hate to come across as knowing more than you, or condemning you. You have found a system that works well for you and your dogs, and I will readily admit that my dog is constant effort. I may disagree with the use of certain training methods, but I will certainly take what's been given, and move on in a more positive direction.
I do like that the discussion is about training, and that so many people here do take the time to put in the effort. There are many who buy a cute little puppy, attempt no method of training, and then surrender their dogs to a shelter when that puppy becomes an unruly dog.
I think training a dog for hunting, even with the use of an e-collar, is a dedication that any dog lover can admire, even if there are disagreements on the approach. I used to always go hunting as a teenager, I mean every single day. And I used to badly wish I had a bird dog to accompany me, as most of the time I went by myself. Maybe this experience would've changed my outlook on the sport and techniques involved a little more.
There is no misconception on my behalf that my dog and I are still very much works in progress, but we make strides every day, and that is all of the reward I need. My dog still has leaps and bounds to go, but my ability to work with her is helping to close the gap. She is not your run of the mill dog, everything we do together is based on training or working in one form or another. She is not exactly that perfect dog that I can take to Petco, but the progress we've made rivals any progress that any dog and owner can make.
Have a great day everybody, and if this thread can return to some level of normalcy I would be so grateful. I really do come here to talk with intelligent, informed, and non judgmental people. So I will try to provide more in that manor, and hope others can make an equal effort. It's still new to me to be able to talk to such a diverse group of people, and being online makes it harder to let my real attitude show through, though these posts help me at getting better in the next one. I'll post a different thread if this one gets more out of hand, but the discussion has been great at times, and I've enjoyed having it.
I think the sarcasm and ridicule of my character has gone far beyond acceptable retaliation for people being offended by what I may have said. But to be fair, I will take it with a grain of salt and offer a gentleman's truce (ladies too), and apologize for my involvement!
Mike, aside from the difference in training techniques, I would hate to come across as knowing more than you, or condemning you. You have found a system that works well for you and your dogs, and I will readily admit that my dog is constant effort. I may disagree with the use of certain training methods, but I will certainly take what's been given, and move on in a more positive direction.
I do like that the discussion is about training, and that so many people here do take the time to put in the effort. There are many who buy a cute little puppy, attempt no method of training, and then surrender their dogs to a shelter when that puppy becomes an unruly dog.
I think training a dog for hunting, even with the use of an e-collar, is a dedication that any dog lover can admire, even if there are disagreements on the approach. I used to always go hunting as a teenager, I mean every single day. And I used to badly wish I had a bird dog to accompany me, as most of the time I went by myself. Maybe this experience would've changed my outlook on the sport and techniques involved a little more.
There is no misconception on my behalf that my dog and I are still very much works in progress, but we make strides every day, and that is all of the reward I need. My dog still has leaps and bounds to go, but my ability to work with her is helping to close the gap. She is not your run of the mill dog, everything we do together is based on training or working in one form or another. She is not exactly that perfect dog that I can take to Petco, but the progress we've made rivals any progress that any dog and owner can make.
Have a great day everybody, and if this thread can return to some level of normalcy I would be so grateful. I really do come here to talk with intelligent, informed, and non judgmental people. So I will try to provide more in that manor, and hope others can make an equal effort. It's still new to me to be able to talk to such a diverse group of people, and being online makes it harder to let my real attitude show through, though these posts help me at getting better in the next one. I'll post a different thread if this one gets more out of hand, but the discussion has been great at times, and I've enjoyed having it.
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Lil, your lurcher is gorgeous!
Hey, here's El Chupacabrarolleyes
Don't be fooled, it's killed a man.
Hey Emily! Lil is actually my true love in snow cornsnake shape1 I'm Janine (or J9), and pleased to meet you. Your monster is just practising her 'weasel dance' to fascinate her prey IMO! She looks such a sweetie.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Actually Michael, it was your brother who was claiming his opinions were facts. You'll find that he did contribute quite heavily to the derailment of the thread by disregarding any other way but his own preferred training methods, IMO.
Michael823
New member
I tried posting my last post as a means of keeping the peace, finding common ground, and rebuilding the conversation in a positive way. I will not speak for my brother, he can do his own bidding here, and I think I have done a decent job so far keeping my opinions and remarks as my own.
To be honest, I don't read much past the first sentences of my brothers posts, it's a twin thing. It's kind of like being married for 60 years, we may have common ground, but don't need to hear how Fred cut you in the Bingo line so to speak.
I hear his opinions everyday and use the computer as an escape, as I'm sure he does too. I was only speaking for myself, because I'm sure his experience with my dog is far different from my own. We both share a mutual love for the dog, and it requires a consistent method of training from the both of us as to not confuse her, but even his way of assessing dog behavior and training is different from my own.
BTW Diamondlil. I've seen those pictures before, but that is one cute dog. Oh how I would give my left arm to have such a large field to gallivant with my dog. Your dog seems to love swimming too. Right now all I have for Ciana is a kiddie pool, and the occasional dip in a river (which is WAY too high now).
To be honest, I don't read much past the first sentences of my brothers posts, it's a twin thing. It's kind of like being married for 60 years, we may have common ground, but don't need to hear how Fred cut you in the Bingo line so to speak.
I hear his opinions everyday and use the computer as an escape, as I'm sure he does too. I was only speaking for myself, because I'm sure his experience with my dog is far different from my own. We both share a mutual love for the dog, and it requires a consistent method of training from the both of us as to not confuse her, but even his way of assessing dog behavior and training is different from my own.
BTW Diamondlil. I've seen those pictures before, but that is one cute dog. Oh how I would give my left arm to have such a large field to gallivant with my dog. Your dog seems to love swimming too. Right now all I have for Ciana is a kiddie pool, and the occasional dip in a river (which is WAY too high now).
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Thanks Michael.
She mainly loves to run, but that day I met up by chance with some of her friends from the usual walk, they'd had the same idea to take their dogs further afield on such a lovely day. Because they were 3 labs happily retrieving from water, Rosie decided to try to join in. She had only just got her paws wet before, but copying her friends means she's now learnt to swim.
Right now she's on her season so only lead walks around the block until she's safely finished, in about 2 weeks. She's coping very well, just sofa-surfing most of the time.
She mainly loves to run, but that day I met up by chance with some of her friends from the usual walk, they'd had the same idea to take their dogs further afield on such a lovely day. Because they were 3 labs happily retrieving from water, Rosie decided to try to join in. She had only just got her paws wet before, but copying her friends means she's now learnt to swim.
Right now she's on her season so only lead walks around the block until she's safely finished, in about 2 weeks. She's coping very well, just sofa-surfing most of the time.
tsst
Deuce is watching!
It was not your post. I believe they were referring to a post your brother made about teaching to avoid snakes using a toy and "leave it" command. Also how your GSD was around snakes and that "now every time we take one out to hold she lies down reactively". That confused me because I remembered a post you made, just a couple weeks ago, about your BP. I liked the pic of your GSD nose to nose with the snake. So I commented about how quick she had become reactive and posted the link to your thread. He then said you hadn't given her the "leave it" command in the pic. This is still a little confusing because in his original post he implied she responded to the sight of the snake "reactively" without needing a command. :shrugs:
Michael823
New member
Gotcha'! I'm not sure how he explained it, but I'll try to give a better account.
If I take a snake out in the house, she usually approaches with curiosity (they are quite strange), and I'll firmly tell her "no, lay down", and she'll follow the command.
I referred to using "leave it" only for the horse poop question, not snakes. "Leave it" should be a command used only when you're certain the dog will obey (mostly for yucky stuff, poop, road killed frogs, etc...), and when the dog is close enough to grab in case they do not obey. It is not as a first response for danger (like a dangerous snake), and shouldn't be treated as a fool proof method of teaching avoidance, because dogs do ignore commands at times, it's just a fact. She knows "leave it" quite well, but I wouldn't trust it to save her life.
I don't worry about her attacking a snake, but if they strike her, who knows how she'll react? So I try to establish that she should stay away or lay down if she encounters them. There are maybe one or two Rattlesnake dens in all of N.H (both in southern NH), so I don't try to teach her to fear snakes, as there is no threat of encountering them (have to live here to understand), more to just avoid them out of their safety.
So when we were outside with my BP, she approached with curiosity as usual, but I kind of wanted the photo so I didn't discourage her. I wasn't afraid of her attacking him, or vise versa, so I allowed her to approach.
She was actually mid bow in that position, as if she was about to keep her distance and lay down, but still unsure and curious. I'm not sure how it appears, but I would never put either pet in a position of danger of one another.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
Michael, no one here was trying to suggest that you put your pets in danger. I wish more of my reptile customers were as enthusiastic as you and Ricky. That said, he has consistently made blanket statements throughout this thread regarding dog training and behavior. And you two seem to be interchangeable when replying to opposing viewpoints, as has been pointed out. Lots of folks here (myself included) have owned working dogs for longer than you or he have been on the planet. Does that make us "better?" No. But experience has some value, as you have to be aware.
I'm in love with bully breeds now, and have changed my training methods over the years with new information. My first dog training book was by William Kohler, and my rottie and doberman were definitely trained with a heaver hand in my early twenties than I use now. A decade later, I had a Belgian malinois and then a GSD and used largely Monks of New Skete methods, with equal success. Today I work with a pit bull, an American bulldog and an English bull dog. The first two are INSANE high drive dogs! Very sweet and neither human nor dog aggressive, but the working gene and physical strength is unlike anything I'd ever dealt with, and all my previous dogs were Frisbee dogs/flat out athletes. To train my AB and pit only using positive/reward methods simply wasn't an option. As two month old puppies they are like any other puppy, but there comes a time where they exert their will. Their sheer prowess would be enough to punish unwanted behavior, but add in the undying will to make a "game" of anything (from biting and fighting anything moving to chasing cars) and corrections are an absolute necessity! Ten thousand examples of ignoring unwanted behavior would have to accumulate to equal one shake down. I truly believe dog training has gone from far too harsh to so soft it makes me as angry as not keeping score in kids' soccer games ('cause God knows we don't many let kids play football anymore.) Ed Frawley has a free training podcast at Leerburg.com that addresses this phenomenon. There are clearly many ways to properly train a dog, but for Ricky to come in guns a blazin' that your dogs have never had a scuffle and your way is the right way is no way to start a thread in a community of people who have a passion for this. And it seemed to go downhill from there.
I'm in love with bully breeds now, and have changed my training methods over the years with new information. My first dog training book was by William Kohler, and my rottie and doberman were definitely trained with a heaver hand in my early twenties than I use now. A decade later, I had a Belgian malinois and then a GSD and used largely Monks of New Skete methods, with equal success. Today I work with a pit bull, an American bulldog and an English bull dog. The first two are INSANE high drive dogs! Very sweet and neither human nor dog aggressive, but the working gene and physical strength is unlike anything I'd ever dealt with, and all my previous dogs were Frisbee dogs/flat out athletes. To train my AB and pit only using positive/reward methods simply wasn't an option. As two month old puppies they are like any other puppy, but there comes a time where they exert their will. Their sheer prowess would be enough to punish unwanted behavior, but add in the undying will to make a "game" of anything (from biting and fighting anything moving to chasing cars) and corrections are an absolute necessity! Ten thousand examples of ignoring unwanted behavior would have to accumulate to equal one shake down. I truly believe dog training has gone from far too harsh to so soft it makes me as angry as not keeping score in kids' soccer games ('cause God knows we don't many let kids play football anymore.) Ed Frawley has a free training podcast at Leerburg.com that addresses this phenomenon. There are clearly many ways to properly train a dog, but for Ricky to come in guns a blazin' that your dogs have never had a scuffle and your way is the right way is no way to start a thread in a community of people who have a passion for this. And it seemed to go downhill from there.
Ricky87
New member
I don't want to give the impression that me, or my dogs, are perfect in any way. As everybody with dogs knows, there is no perfect, and training is an everyday struggle. For those of you I truly offended I apologize, and I'd like to repeat the sentiment my brother said about the fact that any vested interest in a dogs well being is to be respected. Way too many people don't take the time to work with their dogs for any reason, period, and being I have an adopted dog myself I realize how important it is to not only provide a home, but also rules, boundaries, and limitations. My dogs mean everything to me, and being I'm not strong enough to manage them physically, I have had to use much daintier approaches in their development. Hopefully one day the world at large will have drawn out discussions of dog behavior like we have here, so that there will be less dogs in shelters, or being euthanized. Hopefully everything smooths itself out over the next few pages so we can continue discussing our obnoxiously furry counterparts in a more constructive manner!.
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
Awesome Chip! I found Frawley a bit by accident while looking for some information on my own. I linked it for them. I'm pretty sure they neither read, nor listened to, his fairly common sense approach. A couple of stories he shared were downright scary what could happen without using all the various techniques necessary!
D80