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Which Snakes Can Live together?
- Thread starter Ivorzz5
- Start date
Stormy
Keeper of scaley things.
I can already tell you people will jump on this and say no snakes should be living together. Pet shops often keep small baby snakes in the same tank because they want to save space. Just remember that just because a pet shop does it, doesnt mean it is good practice.
ZoologyGirl
Under Tank Heather
These snakes are good to cohab in my belly:
But in all seriousness I'd have to agree with what the previous posts have said and say none.
But in all seriousness I'd have to agree with what the previous posts have said and say none.
dickdeuel
Old Snake Breeder
Any of the rat snakes can be housed together, including corn snakes. At feeding time you have to be careful that they don't start feeding on the same mouse or rat. Separating to separate containers is an option.
Their cage should be large enough so they can find separate hides and avoid each other at times. At times they may be piled on top of each other. Their sex doesn't mean anything except you might end up with some unexpected eggs.
Their cage should be large enough so they can find separate hides and avoid each other at times. At times they may be piled on top of each other. Their sex doesn't mean anything except you might end up with some unexpected eggs.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
Wrong...wrong...wrong...
Snakes are solitary animals by nature, coming together only to breed.
Forcing them to live together can cause issues with feeding, stress them out and shorten their lifespans.
If you house 2 males together, there is even more stress as breeding season approaches.
If you house a male and a female together, the male will constantly harass the female to mate, whether she is ready to or not. The female will be under constant stress and could die from eggbinding if bred too young.
I consider co habbing snakes to be animal cruelty myself.
Imagine that you are confined to a room with someone you absolutely hate. You are forced to be with this person 24/7, no way out for your whole life.
Do you think YOUR health might suffer?
And we humans are social creatures. It is 10 times worse for non social animals...
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
And there we go.... 
In the end people against co-habbing and people practicing it with no problems won't ever agree, can't we just skip the whole middle part and just get to the end :crazy02:
I think the best somehow in between advice is: newby's should better house apart, because they might miss signs of stress from co-habbing and have to learn how healthy snakes behave, so they can see when they are stressed or ill. Only when you know you animals and they are established, you might try co-habbing, watching carefully whether any participant stops eating or shows other signs of stress.
I think the vast amount of people co-habbing without problems, does say something about the problems it gives, whether anti-co-habbers like that or not. I do feel better co-habbing 2 adults in a 36 x 24 inch viv then separate them and house them in 24 x 16 tubs or drawers, like I see a lot if people have large collections. Of course, if they are thriving, some just don't like being co-habbed, so they won't be.
I'm very curious if anyone has ever done any attempt to 'scientifically' test if snakes thrive better when housed alone, compared to being co-habbed. So, not gut-feeling or simple reasoning why they should be housed alone, but plain testing. I bet nobody has so far. Until that time, I just look at how things are working out the way I House them. Calling this animal abuse might be just an opinion but I know people that would say keeping snakes in cages is animal abuse any way you do that, so.... don't go that way please.
In the end people against co-habbing and people practicing it with no problems won't ever agree, can't we just skip the whole middle part and just get to the end :crazy02:
I think the best somehow in between advice is: newby's should better house apart, because they might miss signs of stress from co-habbing and have to learn how healthy snakes behave, so they can see when they are stressed or ill. Only when you know you animals and they are established, you might try co-habbing, watching carefully whether any participant stops eating or shows other signs of stress.
I think the vast amount of people co-habbing without problems, does say something about the problems it gives, whether anti-co-habbers like that or not. I do feel better co-habbing 2 adults in a 36 x 24 inch viv then separate them and house them in 24 x 16 tubs or drawers, like I see a lot if people have large collections. Of course, if they are thriving, some just don't like being co-habbed, so they won't be.
I'm very curious if anyone has ever done any attempt to 'scientifically' test if snakes thrive better when housed alone, compared to being co-habbed. So, not gut-feeling or simple reasoning why they should be housed alone, but plain testing. I bet nobody has so far. Until that time, I just look at how things are working out the way I House them. Calling this animal abuse might be just an opinion but I know people that would say keeping snakes in cages is animal abuse any way you do that, so.... don't go that way please.
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
By the way, I don't think snakes are able to hate other snakes, comparing co-habbing to being confined with someone you hate, does not seem really applicable to me.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
True, snakes don't hate...but they do tend to avoid others except to mate. Avoiding others is how they prefer to be, so to force them to be in close proximity would be like forcing 2 people together who would otherwise avoid each other at all costs...
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
My snakes don't avoid each other at all costs.... they seem to 'think' getting into the spot they like is more important then avoiding another snake. Except for breeding season, when I separate males if they shows stress, I have not ever witnessed any 'dispute' between snakes, how could that be if they 'compete' for spots they wanna be in?
I do think of course housing them separately in at least 5 x 5 feet long vivs would be the best thing to do, but we have to make choices: get less snakes, co-hab or decrease viv size, since most people just don't have a zoo to house their snakes in but still want to keep a certain amount.
I really think any snake keeper draws its own lines what is acceptable and what is not. We should respect that, as long as a keeper carefully watches his animals and never let them in a situation they are apparently don't thrive.
A couple of weeks ago at a fair I saw a table with 2 boxes containing way too skinny adult snakes, a corn and a black ratsnake, both labeled as rat snakes (the black rat was supposed to be a charcoal -pfff- ). Another box showed 2 lavender obsoleta's, being labeled as lavender corns. Those things concern me, since these people clearly don't know what they are doing at all concerning their snakes. They don't even think about what they are doing.
I do think of course housing them separately in at least 5 x 5 feet long vivs would be the best thing to do, but we have to make choices: get less snakes, co-hab or decrease viv size, since most people just don't have a zoo to house their snakes in but still want to keep a certain amount.
I really think any snake keeper draws its own lines what is acceptable and what is not. We should respect that, as long as a keeper carefully watches his animals and never let them in a situation they are apparently don't thrive.
A couple of weeks ago at a fair I saw a table with 2 boxes containing way too skinny adult snakes, a corn and a black ratsnake, both labeled as rat snakes (the black rat was supposed to be a charcoal -pfff- ). Another box showed 2 lavender obsoleta's, being labeled as lavender corns. Those things concern me, since these people clearly don't know what they are doing at all concerning their snakes. They don't even think about what they are doing.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Sometimes it works...
and sometimes it doesn't. It probably depends on how healthy and how prone to stress the particular animals are. If you are new to keeping corns, you probably will not be a good judge of stress levels. I guess it depends on how much risk you are willing to take to save some space. My recommendation - don't do it.
and sometimes it doesn't. It probably depends on how healthy and how prone to stress the particular animals are. If you are new to keeping corns, you probably will not be a good judge of stress levels. I guess it depends on how much risk you are willing to take to save some space. My recommendation - don't do it.
wstphal
working in the Gulag
I take my husbandry seriously although I am a n00bie. I do not think anyone with less than many years of experience should cohab. But I know that Kathy Love discusses having done it in her book, and I think in the hands of someone with her level of expertise, it could be done safely because a person like that could detect which snakes tolerate it & thrive and which do not.
I also wish that we as a group would be willing to provide support to a study done by someone like her that would give the rest of us good guidelines.
I have read that garters can cohab safely in large vivs. That might be nice for someone who would like to cohab a colubrid species if it's true.
I have also read that some boa breeder cohab for the mating season, separating to feed but allowing them to live to together and mate when they wish. Those breeders could provide info on whether, say, 2 females would do well together if provided with more than enough space & separate feeding areas.
For the rest of us who lack these levels of expertise, I think we should stick to housing them singly! If you are worried about lack of space, the 66Q racks Nanci has look pretty spacious. Or a rack designed for smaller boids would be quite spacious for an adult corn while still providing compactness for the owner.
Of course, this is IMHO and YMMV. I have noticed European keepers may do more cohabbing, but from the pictures I have seen that they are cohabbing in very large vivaria, and I have gotten the impression that the Europeans who cohab colubrids are highly experienced with their species. So if you fall into those categories, MHO may not really be applicable to you, and I wouldn't criticize, and Blutengel, you sound like you are one of those folks, so don't take any of this as aimed at you. It's really aimed at folks who use tubs or racks and don't have a high level of experience
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I have a teacher friend...
who kept a mixed terrarium or two in his class room. It had green snakes, and a few frogs and lizards, all insect eaters. He kept them for years and said they did quite well. In fact, I would like to do that myself sometime. But I would not suggest a beginner start out that way.
When I got my first ever ball pythons a few years ago, I tried to set them up and do everything in the most accepted, easiest ways suggested for beginners with ball pythons. I had kept and bred other species of boas and pythons years ago, but this species was new, so I did it "by the book" for the first few years. I believe that is the best way to START. Once you feel you are experienced enough to try new approaches and that you are familiar enough with your species and your individuals to note and understand their reactions, THAT is the time to try something out of the ordinary, IMHO. Why not make success more assured the first few years, instead of trying something that leads to problems more often than the recommended beginner approach?
who kept a mixed terrarium or two in his class room. It had green snakes, and a few frogs and lizards, all insect eaters. He kept them for years and said they did quite well. In fact, I would like to do that myself sometime. But I would not suggest a beginner start out that way.
When I got my first ever ball pythons a few years ago, I tried to set them up and do everything in the most accepted, easiest ways suggested for beginners with ball pythons. I had kept and bred other species of boas and pythons years ago, but this species was new, so I did it "by the book" for the first few years. I believe that is the best way to START. Once you feel you are experienced enough to try new approaches and that you are familiar enough with your species and your individuals to note and understand their reactions, THAT is the time to try something out of the ordinary, IMHO. Why not make success more assured the first few years, instead of trying something that leads to problems more often than the recommended beginner approach?
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
Thanks wstphal I only have corns for six years now, as a noobie I just started with co-habbing 2 baby snakes because over here many people do so.
Reading about it made me decide to first house a new corn on its own until I know it has settled and I get to know it, so I can see changes in behavior if I 'need' to co-hab it. I have so far not 'met' many corns which just 'don't like' to be co-habbed, though some seemed just to be picky about their cage mates.
Our snake section of Dutch Craigs's list type web site, contains almost only photo's and ads of people co-habbing (photo's speak for them selves, so do ads for a single (usually pretty large) viv containing 5 snakes do). Others might only have 1 or 2 snakes but watch tv with them on the couch daily for hours (people tell those things in adds, really).
Those are not the quite large scale/serious breeders/keepers but the people with a couple of snakes to decorate the living room and/or to show they are cool people perhaps, you know what I mean. I have talked with people like that and seen their snakes, most of the time the snakes look healthy and seem to thrive. That does not mean I'd co-hab 5 snakes, but it does seem to add to the idea that the separate housing thing is not the one and only 'sacred' way to go for healthy snakes. Perhaps size of the viv or other circumstances are equally or more important.
I only have corns for six years now, as a noobie I just started with co-habbing 2 baby snakes because over here many people do so. Reading about it made me decide to first house a new corn on its own until I know it has settled and I get to know it, so I can see changes in behavior if I 'need' to co-hab it. I have so far not 'met' many corns which just 'don't like' to be co-habbed, though some seemed just to be picky about their cage mates.
Our snake section of Dutch Craigs's list type web site, contains almost only photo's and ads of people co-habbing (photo's speak for them selves, so do ads for a single (usually pretty large) viv containing 5 snakes do). Others might only have 1 or 2 snakes but watch tv with them on the couch daily for hours (people tell those things in adds, really).
Those are not the quite large scale/serious breeders/keepers but the people with a couple of snakes to decorate the living room and/or to show they are cool people perhaps, you know what I mean. I have talked with people like that and seen their snakes, most of the time the snakes look healthy and seem to thrive. That does not mean I'd co-hab 5 snakes, but it does seem to add to the idea that the separate housing thing is not the one and only 'sacred' way to go for healthy snakes. Perhaps size of the viv or other circumstances are equally or more important.
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
Katy, I certainly agree with you. Before I hung out at forums, I was simply not confronted with people against co-habbing. I read some care sheets, mostly not mentioning anything about the subject, saw people co-habbing and decided that would be ok then. With new species I would indeed start the way it should be now, and reading about the species on the forums, because now I do know they exist I always tell people asking me Q's at fairs or by mail to join a forum!
I always tell people asking me Q's at fairs or by mail to join a forum!
Hypancistrus
New member
Actually, Bethany, you are wrong. Kathy is too. I know she knows quite a lot, or so THEY say, but sometimes experience just isn't what it's made out to be. My trio of Softes stuffedis plushie snakes are doing great in a group. I have them in a 29 gallon because it will control their growth-- if there's no space they'll never outgrow it.
This is the male at an outdoor photo shoot:
He has a bit of a temper!
And one of his ladies, in red phase.
