Transparent Hypo? Blue Ice?

Another new Morph?

Hi Everyone,
My name is Joe Pierce and I am the breeder of the Transparent Hypo Okeetee Corn Snakes in question. I have been breeding corn snakes for 20 years and own a company that is called Snakes Alive! I have been laying low for the last five years and mainly wholesaling most of my hatchlings and working on another corn snake project. I have emailed Chuck with as much information about this project that I know. He told me that he was going to present the information here that I gave him and I look forward to seeing what he presents.
I want to present you with the facts that I know and some information that was told to me. Everyone in the hobby, gets a great deal of the information about the snakes they purchase from the breeders they buy them from. They also get a lot of good and questionable information from others in the hobby that enjoy talking snakes as much as we do. I am not a herpetologist. I have learned how to raise snakes in captivity, breed snakes, the scientific names of snakes, and the appearances of the subspecies and different morphs of snakes the same way that most people in the hobby have. The very best source of information that I have found is other successful breeders in the hobby. In the beginning, I copied what they had already done and I was a “snake breeder“. I have also read as many articles about all aspects of reptile husbandry as I could get my hands on and have attended several symposiums and more reptile shows than I can possibly remember. The reptile shows provide the opportunity to speak with other breeders and see an enormous amount of reptiles. You are also able to see in person thousands of corn snakes in just about every morph known and some odd balls morphs that we just don’t know what they are.
The Transparent Hypo Corn Snake is a new strain of hypo corn snake. It is not compatible with the “Regular”/Normal/Super Corn Snake and it is not compatible with Kathy Love’s Sunkissed Okeetee Corn Snake. These two strains of hypo are the only two known strains of hypo. I am certain that there are more to come and are probably already here. How do I/we know that the “Regular” Hypo and the Sunkissed Hypo are a different strain of hypo. For most of us, it is because we were told that it was. Hatchling Sunkissed Okeetee Corn Snakes are offered for sale on Kathy’s web site, so the Sunkissed Hypos are reproducible. I personally learned that the Sunkissed Hypos are a different strain of Hypo from Rich Z via email last year. He told me that he bred the Sunkissed Hypo and the “Regular” Hypo together and the offspring were normally colored corn snakes. His conclusion was that the two strains are different and I agree with him. Why do I except what Rich Z has told me about this test breeding and do not feel that I have to repeat what he has already done to except his results? I am fairly sure that Rich Z knows how to breed corn snakes and that he can tell the difference between a Hypo Corn and a normally colored corn snake. Does anybody disagree with me on this? This type of test breeding is very easy and anybody who is reading this can easily reproduce Rich’s test breeding of the two strains of hypo and check his results. I know what the results of the test would be, if I reproduced Rich’s test, so I do not feel the need to repeat it.
I have had the Transparent Hypo Okeetee Corn Snakes in my collection for a long time. I have produced them for many years and they are reproducible. I have suspected that the Trans Hypo was a different strain of hypo for quite awhile, so I finally decided to do some test breeding. The test with the “Regular” Hypo Corn snake was easy. I have had them in my collection for a long time along with Ghost Corns. In 2002, I bred a Male Regular Hypo with a female Trans Hypo which had never been bred before and the resulting hatchlings were all normally colored. I don’t remember exactly how big of a clutch of eggs it was, but it was a normal sized clutch of 15 - 20 eggs and most, if not all, of them hatched. My conclusion from this test breeding is that the Trans Hypo and “Regular” Hypo are not compatible and the Trans Hypo is a different strain of hypo than the “Regular” Hypo. I wanted to finish what I had begun, so I contacted Kathy and inquired about purchasing some female Sunkissed Okeetees that had not been bred. Kathy had some yearlings that were available and I bought two yearling females from her and fed them heavily. This year, 2003, I bred a Male Transparent Hypo with both Sunkissed Hypo females. One of the females was a better feeder than the other and she became gravid. She laid 13 eggs. All of the eggs hatched and they are all normally colored. My conclusion from this test breeding is that the Trans Hypos and Sunkissed Hypos are not compatible and the Trans Hypo is a different strain of hypo. The Trans Hypos are a different strain of hypo than the “Regular” Hypo and the Sunkissed Hypo. I bred the Trans Hypo with the “Regular” Hypo and normal colored hatchlings were the result. I bred the Trans Hypo with the Sunkissed Hypos and normal colored hatchlings were the result. In both test breeding, the females which produced the clutches had never been bred before.
The scientist which I purchase my original hatchlings from told me his story. I can not confirm it in any way. I have his name in my old computer and any one who wants to can try to contact him if they can find him. It is possible, I am sure. I do know that I purchased 2.4 corn snakes from him and they were normally colored and grew up to be very beautiful corns that look like what we call Okeetee Corn Snakes, except that they have narrow black bands around the blotches instead of the wide ones we sometimes see. I raised these corn snakes up and bred them in 1.2 groups. The clutches from these snakes hatched and in one of the clutches were a few hatchlings that I thought were albinos at first. I thought that this was extremely odd, considering the “Scientist” told me that my hatchlings were F1’s from wild caught Okeetees. I did not catch the parents of these corns so I guess, I have no personal knowledge that they came from wild caught stock. How many times have you heard that this or that was from wild caught stock. Did they actually catch the snakes or were they told this. Most of the time it was something that they were told. The following year, I bred the Male which produced the hypo corns to all four females. The only female which produced more hypos was the same one as before. I had saved most of the hatchlings from this female from the year before, because the hypos in the clutch were very nice and not like any hypo that I have seen before. At the time, I thought they were nice hypos because Okeetees are very nice compared to “Regular” Corns.
I raised these Hypo Corns and some of their siblings up and bred the Hypo males to possible het females and to the female which produced the hypos and the results were exactly what any body reading this would expect from a simple recessive gene when breeding snakes. A Hypo Male bred to the female which produced the first hypos produced about 50% Hypos. A Hypo bred to the possible het females produced all normal hatchling from some females and from others 50% hypos. In this case, I knew they were heterozygous for the hypo gene as well.
I wanted to do something else with this colony of Okeetees so I bred the original Hypo Male to an Albino Corn Snake female. I selected her I seem to remember, because she was very similar to an Albino Okeetee and she laid over 50 eggs a year. The resulting hatchlings were all normally colored hatchlings that I thought were double het for albino and hypo. I saved 2.4 of these hatchlings and began to raise them up. The following year I bred the same Albino female to a snow male and found out that she was het for snow. In prior years she was bred to an Albino male and only albino hatchlings were the result. The hatchlings that I saved from the Hypo X Albino breeding now had a 50% chance that they were het for Anery as well.
The 2.4 Normal Corns double het for amel and hypo and possible het for anery were raised up and again were set up in 1.2 breeding colonies. One of the clutches that hatched from the four females, contained a white snake with a very faint pattern and it had a blue “V” on its head and ruby eyes. It did not look like any Snow or Ghost that I have ever seen. This hatchling did not survive. It simply would not eat. I did everything to keep it alive. This clutch of hatchlings contained, normal, albino, anery, snow, hypo and the white hatchling. The following year, I bred the Male that produced this white snake with all of the females. The same female as before produced two male white snakes this year. These two snakes ate great and I still have them today. They do not look like any Ghost Corns that I have ever seen. I have Pastel Ghost and they are similar, but not the same. Needless to say, I saved every hatchling form this breeding except for some normal males that were just possible het for all of the traits that were in the mix.
When the white males grew up, I bred the nicest one to his mother this year. The expected color morphs of hatchlings were produced. The clutch contained normals, hypos, anery and white snakes. These snakes that look white with a very faint pattern when born, soon become a very light shade of grayish white with various amounts of pink coloration developing on them very quickly. The Blue “V” on their head is distinctly blue and their eyes appear to be blue with ruby irises. These hatchlings vary in the shade of whitish gray they are as does many other snakes of the same morph within a clutch.
I now know that I have a new Hypo Corn and a new double homozygous corn for hypo and anery. The amel gene is in the mix too, but I do not know how it is effecting the white snakes. Some are very light compared to the rest and I am keeping them all! I am pretty sure that I have some double homozygous corns for hypo and amel. They are obviously different, but nothing really spectacular. They are orange instead of red and the blotches have washed out areas in them. Not what you would expect an Albino Okeetee to look like. These two new morphs of corns can not be called Hypo or Ghost. One reason, is that they are not compatible with the other Hypos or Ghost and you would not be happy with me if you bred my hypo with your hypo and got normal corns would you? These whitish/gray snakes are not Ghost. A Ghost is a double homozygous corn for “Regular” Hypo and anery. These snakes are not. They need to be called something else so everyone will know the genetic make up of the snakes and not unknowingly cross them with a “Regular” Hypo or “Regular” Ghost. Those who name snakes always have critics and it is a very difficult arena to enter. How many critics out there have named their own new morph or color phase of snake? I personally do not like trying to come up with names of new morphs myself, but it is necessary. I personally HATE Type “A”, Type “B” and so on and “Regular”. No effort was needed in these examples, but the job gets done. “Regular” can be put on the front of any corn morph that has been around awhile. I also HATE a breeders name being added to a new morph of snake.
I have entered the name game a few times myself. I was lucky to obtain a wild caught Anery Pacific Gopher Snake several years ago and produced the first “Black Albino Pacific Gopher Snakes” and “Snow Pacific Gopher Snakes” New morphs, but just old names combined to name them. For some unknown reason, I was the first to think about producing a “Striped Lavender Corn Snake” Or as the Hillbilly might say, “ You can’t build a Striped Lavender Corn Snake on what you are going to do.“ The guy (Tim R that I bought my first Lavender Corns from and I were talking at a show. Unfortunately, sometimes you have way too much time to talk at shows. Tim R happen to mention in passing conversation that he thought that a Striped Lavender Corn Snake would look good. He didn’t have any Striped Corns or Motley Corns and bought every phase I had. He said that I had an advantage on him because I already had adult Striped Corn Snakes. I know a good idea when I hear it and when my Lavender Corns grew up I bred them to an Albino Striped Corn Snake the very first year that I could. Last year, I produced “Striped Lavender Corn Snakes” and “Striped Opal Corn Snakes”. Again, old names to describe a new morph. Opal is not old. Thanks Rich Z, I like that one. I am sure many professional critics do not. The above names would most likely be used by anybody who produced the new morph and the names were used to describe the possible new morphs before they existed, so I can not really take any credit for them, but I was the first to produce the morphs to attach the names to.
The Transparent Hypo Okeetee name came about at the San Diego Show that the lady mentioned in this thread. I had them labeled as Hypo Okeetees. Well, the questions came in droves. Are they a “Regular Hypo” X Okeetee or Kathy Loves Hypo Okeetee or something else. I didn’t even know that Kathy had a new Hypo Okeetee. I really thought that they were something new, and as it turned out, I was right. I needed a name quickly. Steve Osborne’s (Professional Breeders) table was next to mine and I showed them to him. He said something like, Well, they do look different. They kind of look transparent, especially the black. It looks like obsidian. So, Transparent Hypo Okeetee it was and has been used enough that it is not reasonable to change it. It is not a Glass Hypo like a Glass Fish. You can not see its heart. I am not sure transparent means clear. It just means that you can see through it like a tail light lens. When these guys are born, it does seem like you can see through the area that should be black like obsidian and the other colors are translucent in appearance. That is my pitch for the name. I have never taken a poll to see how the name is excepted, but haven’t came up against the likes of you guys yet! LOL The name seems to be excepted by the majority of people who actually see the hatchlings in person. About the only thing they might say is, “Are you sure that it isn’t an albino”.
The Blue Ice Corns have never been sold so I guess the name can be changed. I am seriously leaning toward keeping all of them anyway, so I priced them accordingly. My god, I thought about that name for years. They do look like a Blue Ice Glacier. At least, when they are born. When they are adults, they look like a Blue Ice Glacier that someone spray painted pink. A little bit of blue with a lot of white around it. Light blue not "regular" blue. You can see the blue from a lot farther away than 10 feet, unless you have poor vision. My kids like Pepsi’s Blue Ice Drink so they thought the name was pretty “cool“. How about just Ice Corns, or Blue Diamond, or just Diamond. I used Lilac for a while around here. They look kind of light lilac when the pink is developing, but I decided against that one. Blue “Ghost” or anything with Ghost in it was out for me so that eliminated Ghost type “B“. I think the hobby has excepted or fallen in love with catchy romantic names, so I tried. I really did! Today, for some reason, I thought about snake names that came about in similar circumstances. The Blizzard Corn is a great example. It is a “Snow” Corn, but it is not. A blizzard is a snow storm, so the name is excepted as far as I know. Mine are much whiter than the snows I produce. I haven’t seen one that doesn’t have yellow on it though. Maybe, I just got the bad ones. I thought about possible names that we could relate to the name “Ghost”. How about “Phantom”. Any and all suggestions will be considered, but I think I should get the final say,. don’t you?
In conclusion, I conducted all of the breeding tests that others have done to present something as a new strain of hypo or anery or whatever. The Transparent Hypo Corn is reproducible and is a simple recessive gene that is not compatible with the other two known hypo genes. The only other possible proof would be for someone to test my results. I have a volunteer that is well known, so next year the results will be in if all goes well. The Transparent Hypo Corns and Blue Ice Corns do look similar to other “Hypo’s” and “Ghost’s“. Would you expect anything else? All hypos that I have seen look similar, but a little different. I think a Kathy Love Sun kissed “Ghost” would look very similar to a “Regular” Ghost, but a little different. They are different and have a different genetic make up, so a different name is in order.
Something exciting and unexplainable has popped up in the Transparent Hypo Corn line. This year, for the first time, I have produced six “Paradox” Trans Hypo Corns and one “Paradox” Blue Ice/Phantom Corn from F3‘s. F1’s X F3’s as well, unless we go back to the wild caught stock and they would be F4‘s I guess. I checked some that I produced last year and one Blue Ice/Phantom corn has black tips on some of its scales all over its body. It is extremely light and absolutely gorgeous, except for this “DEFECT”. I like the Paradox name. It is used in the Python and Boa world and is excepted. I already know someone who does not. What do the profession critics think? I can not really call it a “NEW MORPH” yet. It is not known if it is reproducible or not, but I bet that I get more next year. I just wanted you to read this entire PAPER to find out about the new MORPH?! LOL When I get a good photo, I will post it. Rich Z’s photos are to die for!

Joe

Thanks for giving us all that background info. I think it will really help people get a good idea of what we're dealing with here.

As for the name Phantom, I believe I've heard that used before for Charcoal Ghosts. To avoid confusion, maybe you should try to find some other name. I guess the real test is whether or not people will use it.

Hey Joe.....

No one can accuse you of withholding information!

I like to keep an open mind about these kinds of things. I've only been breeding for 8 years but I know what you must be going through with the critics.

The Trans hypos look alot like some I saw in Puyallup Washington. I can't remember the name of the fella that had them. He thought they were a type of T+ or was it T-? They were cool looking none the less.

OH, I get it! Joe Pierce backwards!

excellent job

I admit I was kind of doubtful when I first heard about this. But it sounds like you pretty much have your act together. You'll thank yourself later for recording all this because the kind of details you supplied tend to get lost over time and this is extremely important info.
On the name thing, I kind of thought Lilac sounded pretty cool. But they are yours to name whatever you like of course.
Regards,
-John Albrecht

I too was skeptical, and I am glad you gave us all the information you did. However, if I'm not mistaken, Rich Z. has found at least three (maybe four or more) distinct hypos within his own own breeding stock. So, I would suggest only that your breeding trials are not quite yet over.

As far as naming morphs is concerned, I'm just glad I've never had to try, because I'm pretty sure I would stink at it! Transparent, does mean "see through," though. "Translucent" is what describes something more like a tailight.

Thanks for all fo the information!

Charcoal Ghost = Blizzard Corn

I believe a Charcoal Ghost is called a Blizzard Corn if I am not mistaken. A “Ghost” created with the type “B” anery gene. So it is not a “Phantom” Corn. Has anybody else heard the name “Phantom” used to name a corn snakes? It was just the first name that I came up with when trying to relate a name to “Ghost”. I just used my thesaurus on my word processor and the suggested words that came up were: phantom, spirit, ghoul, specter, poltergeist, and banshee.

Actually,

Charcoal Ghost = Anery B (Charcoal) and Hypo
Blizzard = Anery B (Charcoal) and Amel

Blizzards are patternless, stark white, and red-eyed. Charcoal Ghosts are pale, grayish-purple, and dark-eyed.

BTW, several breeders and the Cornsnake Progeny Predictor program have refered to Charcoal Ghosts as "Phantoms"

Charcoal ghosts (anery B and hypo A) has been called a Phantom for some time now, but the name has never really caught on with the consumers. Most every one just calls them Charcoal Ghosts. "Blizzard" is the Charcoal x Amel combination of which CAV wrote.

Corn Snake Genetic "Space Garbage"

Corn Snake Genetic “Space Garbage”, what is that you may ask! I am guilty of creating a lot of the corn snake “Space Garbage” that is out there. Just about any breeder that has ever sold to a wholesaler is also guilty of creating this garbage. A wholesaler does not care if a snake is het for anything. “ I only pay for what I can see, they say.” Project snakes create a great deal of normal looking snakes that are possible hets for any number of recessive genetic traits and multiple recessive genetic traits. It would be impossible to raise them all up and test breed them to see what genes they carry. So where do they go? Wholesalers, is the answer. I guess to be ethical, we could what, destroy these guys? They are normally very vigorous corn snakes that make excellent pets. These possible hets are also sold as Normal Corn Snakes and the buyer are told they may get a bonus of hidden recessive genes when they are bred together. Or they are just sold as pets, and then when the buyer gets tired up them they get bought by a pet shop and then sold to a breeder. At reptile shows, when a seller runs out of Normal Corn Snakes he/she may sell a normal looking male snake that is het for a recessive trait as a normal corn and not tell the buyer. I know I have. My point is that I have sold several thousand corn snakes to wholesalers with hidden recessive traits and then they get shipped all over the country. I am only one of many that have done the exact same thing. This Space Garbage is popping up all over the country as possible new morphs of corns when they are actually just something that looks a little different than maybe a Butter Corn, but is actually a Butter Corn that has so many different localities of corn snake in it that it just looks different.
I have been getting emails that tell me that they have seen Hypos in Florida, Arizona, Washington and many other places that look like my Trans Hypos that are called something else. I have sold Trans Hypos at most of these shows years back. Did the name get lost or they didn‘t like it and changed it to something else. I don‘t know. They are just selling them as hypo this or that (Pumpkin, Dream, Ultra) and creating more unknown space garbage. I have also sold possible hets for Trans Hypos at these shows and wholesalers have shipped this space garbage all over the country. So what do I think Corn Snake Space Garbage is? Any corn snake that is sold with a recessive trait or possible recessive trait, or bought with a recessive trait that is unknown to the buyer. What a mixed up mess we have created. I am guilty as charged! Unfortunately, there are not too many of us that are not guilty as well.

Phantom Corns

Boy, I stepped in it there! Not enough coffee yet or partimerz disease. Sorry, your are total right!

Test Breedings

My test breedings with the Trans Hypo are complete. Test breedings were done with the other two known hypos (“Regular” and Sunkissed) and it is a different hypo gene than these two hypos. I have announced the results to the critics and I am trying to survive the storm. If anyone else has a potential new hypo strain, they may conduct test breedings with the “Three” known hypo corns (“Regular”, Sunkissed, and Trans Hypo). I would suggest that they purchase a good quality rain jacket, because a storm will be coming their way. LOL I am not sure what hypos Rich Z has. I know that he suspects that he has several, but hasn‘t quite figured it out yet. I know that he will. He may know more than he is telling us, but has learned from the past that he does not like wearing rain jackets.

Joe

Joe,

It is not a question of critics, but rather people being concerned about the propensity of some to say "Hey! Come buy my new (fill in the blank) cornsnakes!" Or, worse, "Come buy my new het for (fill in the blank) cornsnakes!"

If the questions that were asked constitute to you a storm of criticism that must be weathered, I'm sorry that you were offended. People are just tired of being taken, and so some of them approach each new claim with a bit of a jaundiced eye. I know I tend to do so.

So, then your Transparent Hypo is the third proven hypo? Is that correct? And the Blue Ice snakes, what are they genetically? Transparent Hypo and what else?

I now have to wonder if Serpwidgets' Dream hypo Okeetee isn't one of your 'Transparents'... For that matter, I'm curious how 'Transparent' and 'Ultrahypo' match up... I suppose I was a bit hasty to make comments about the blueness of the 'Blue Ice' corns... I'm all too aware of how hard it can be to get a corn's true color to show up in a photograph... People who've seen photos are forever trying to convince me that my Ultrahypo is really an amel... he's not, and in person there's no question, but it's hard to get a decent photo that shows that. Anyway, it sounds like you've done your homework, and that's much appreciated. It's definitely a change from the people who hatch out an odd-looking corn, and then start selling the offspring as 'het for purple spiral' or something without even testing to see if the appearance is a predictable trait.

-Kat

Not Offended

Hi Darrin,
I am not offended. I am very sorry if you got that impression. Please forgive me! I am perhaps guilty of using incorrect wording that means something different to me than to someone else. I understand why the questions are being ask. I can be the biggest “critic” of them all at times. This is a very hard arena to enter where every word you may write can be taken differently by anyone who may read it. I am a novice when it comes to these forums. Perhaps, I have a little left over frustration from 15 years of selling snakes retail that I need to get over. I guess that I am a little surprised at how some things have not changed in the hobby. A lot of new players, playing the same old games, but with a lot of great, new, cool stuff.

How many known morphs of hypo corn snakes do you think there are? I know that there are at least three. Ten years from now, I don’t think anyone can imagine what new morphs there will be. I can remember when normals, amels, anery and the new awesome “Snows” were all there was. Some can remember paying $500 for their first Amel Corn and thought that was all there ever would be. Back then, I never dreamed of a Striped Butter Corn or Striped Lavender Corn. Well, maybe I dreamed a little, but didn’t really expect to see the morphs of corns that we have today. Who doesn’t dream of producing a fantastic new morph. A solid blue corn would be awesome. I never thought that I would own a lavender corn snake. Maybe something that looked a little lavender, but actually lavender. The Striped Lavender Corn is a very nice shade of lavender. (Photo attached) How do you know that the “Regular” hypo and Sunkissed Hypos are a different strain?

A Blue Ice Corn is a double homozygous corn for Trans Hypo and Anery “A”. Some of the extremely light ones may be triple homozygous for Trans Hypo, Anery “A” and amel. Amel is in the mix and there have to be a least some double homozygous corns from this project that are homozygous for amel and Trans Hypo. I can easily test breed a suspected double homo corn for amel and Trans hypo by breeding one to a trans Hypo, but I have not done that. This year I bred all of the amels and snows from this project to other amels and snows. I matched up the Trans Hypos with the Anerys and Trans Hypos with Trans Hypos to see if they may be het for the other trait.

The amels from this project that I suspect are also homozygous for Trans Hypo are orange instead of red and have washed out areas in the blotching like some photos that I have seen of “Speckled Albinos”. I really do not see how the Hypo gene can brighten an albino into a Sunglow albino when there isn’t any black to get rid of. An Albino Sunglow Corn Snake use to be an Albino Corn that had no white borders on them when they grew up. The were basically solid orange with a faint pattern. They were as bright as any corn called a Sunglow that is supposedly caused by the hypo gene. In my collection, it seems to me that the hypo gene takes color away from the albinos and does not add to it. See, I can be a critic too.

Joe

Striped Lavender Corn Snake Photo

15 month old Striped Lavender Corn Snake. I finially got a photo with his true lavender color.

Mind if I say "WOW"!

That is a great looking animal. It appears that the disappearing stripe isn't just popping up in the Striped Ghosts.

Pretty darn cool. I'll have to try and breed one of those one of these years... (somehow I doubt my pocketbook could afford whatever price they'd be, assuming the morph was even for sale). I actually like that look a good deal more than I like the lav motley morph.

-Kat

Talk about hindsight!

I produced what was probably the 2nd lavendar to ever come into existence and sold it for little more than an amel. I sure am kicking myself now.

Is that the same one that was on your table in San Diego last year? In all honesty, it was the most beautiful corn I have ever seen. I bet that pic does it no justice. I remember it really was lavendar and pink, it looked like what I would expect from a hypo lavendar stripe. All the pics of this years stripe lav hatchlings don't even come close, then again a lot of color doesn't show through in pics. Gotta love that snake, I rememeber seeing a "not for sale" label on it, right next to a label that read "$1000". I have to admit, I thought about it for awhile. I also remember asking if you had any hypo stripes and you looked at me like I was from another planet. Here you have all these cool snakes and a hypo stripe seemed odd to you. lol

Phantom Corn

Just for the historical record, the first person I ever heard use the term "Phantom Corn" was John Organiscak. And yes, these are one and the same as the Charcoal Ghosts.