possible new morph? You decide

aries said:

Wow i was going to become a cintributor tomorrow, but after that infraction stuff i think im just going to leave. I thought this was a good community i guess i was wrong. Sad thing is i replied with an apology as i realized what i had done and yet i still was " punished" for my post. Sorry again but this is no community i want to be a part of. Shame on you guys, you'd think i would only need to apologize once and here i do it again. Sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry hope that makes the individual that runs this forum complety happy now!?:realhot:

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An infraction is what happens when rules are broken. If you read the stickies first it might have helped you out. But your reaction to this is not giving me a good first impression of you at all.

aries said:

Like i said i meant no disrespect and never meant to post a sale without being a contributor. I will give this forum 1 last chance to show its a community of good intention people, like yourself. However i am hesitant and as such will wait til later to become a contributor. But i will not post furthur replies requesting business until then.

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At this point, after that last post of yours, I don't care if you give this forum one last chance or not. It would be nice if you stayed and made a few friends here, but if you don't my world will not end.

aries said:

Shiari the thing is even though snow does not show in the pic believe me its there. This is a result of 3 years of hard research and trial by breeding. I will post pics after they have shed. By shear definition a true kentucky normal is a combo of both amel and anery. Typically showing an prodominately orange corn with heavy black around the saddles and a checkered belly. I kbow because i have a wc kentucky normal in my collection. I have worked dillegently to document and breed my corns for this reason. The cube pattern is a result of combining the stripe/ motley pattern together. It took 1 year to produce at least a 20% clutch of.them

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Honey, after reading this I really think you NEED to stay on this forum. You don't know much about genetics and how morphs are expressed. As far as "snow not showing in the picture", that would mean that the snake has to be het for amel and anery. And even then, having the hets would not make it a snow. Second, a "Kentucky normal" would be a wild type corn from Kentucky, no amel or anery involved at all. The cube pattern has nothing to do with motley.....
I don't know for sure what you have been doing for 3 years, but learning about cornsnake genetics was not it, that's for sure.

I think you've got a cube normal (possibly hypo) and an anery (or ghost) motley there.

Bethany no disrespect but motley/ stripe is how the cube pattern is derived. Secondly all corns including wild type are misconstruded all the time. Kentucky normals yes which are wild type are either anery or amel or conbo of both. You are splitting hairs with morphs. All morphs are and have been derived from wild type corns rats milks and kings. This is the basic building blocks of all current morphs. Im not gonna get into a back snd forth with you over simple genectics. A great example of this is palmettos. A wild type that is being captively bred and will probably be genectically fused to other corns morphs which will result in other new morphs. But like everyone you have an opinion and can respect you for it.

Aries, you are wrong again. Motley-stripe does not make cubes. Pure stripe makes cubes.

You are telling me you can find wild animals like the amel, anery, and snow I posted all the time in Kentucky? You are pulling my leg here or you just don't understand genetics at all.

There is no morph hair splitting. A normal is NOT an amel. A normal is NOT an anery. A normal is NOT a snow. They can carry a *single* copy of the amel gene and/or the anery gene and look completely normal, but that does not count towards their morph.

The morph is the VISUAL appearance of the snake. You cannot tell me that a Snow looks like a normal. Snows are visually expressing *2* amel genes and *2* anery genes. The second snake you posted has BLACK pigment. It cannot be expressing amelanism so therefore it is not a snow!

Quick observation. Is it possible the OP is using terms to describe some of what he/she is seeing, but not realising that the term used has a specific meaning in corn snake morphs. I'm thinking the term "cube" in this case..

I'm guessing she's an anery showing "leaky hets", that is, how sometimes, hets can influence the visual color. Did she start out her life as a different color? Curiously,

No this has been their colors since hatching im just waiting on them to shed to see their true colors

aries said:

all corns including wild type are misconstruded all the time. Kentucky normals yes which are wild type are either anery or amel or conbo of both. You are splitting hairs with morphs. All morphs are and have been derived from wild type corns rats milks and kings. This is the basic building blocks of all current morphs.

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Hold on, are you saying that Kentucky corns all carry hets for amel, anery or both? How have you come to this conclusion?
Of course all the recessive genes that make up morphs are already in some wild-type corns, the genes themselves aren't man-made. But it's a big jump to say all of any given population carry those genes, without proof.

diamondlil said:

Hold on, are you saying that Kentucky corns all carry hets for amel, anery or both? How have you come to this conclusion?
Of course all the recessive genes that make up morphs are already in some wild-type corns, the genes themselves aren't man-made. But it's a big jump to say all of any given population carry those genes, without proof.

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well let's look at the bigger picture. if ALL of the wild population carried Amel and Anery, you would run into visual Amels and Anerys AND snows in the wild ALL the time because obviously all these het animals would be breeding in the wild.

Since this DOESN'T happen (once in a blue moon someone will find an anery in the wild) it's pretty safe to say that that claim is very presumptuous and unlikely at best.

Aries, here is a little help for you.

The first picture is a normal. She is a nice bright normal, but considered "just" a normal. Her name is Hypwhip and she is more than "just" a normal to me!

The second picture is of an okeetee. Okeetees are also considered normals, except that they are line bred to produce such vivid reds with such thick black borders. They got their name from the Okeetee Club in...Georgia I think it was where the wild snakes there had alot of red in them. These days though, some people believe that only wild caught animals from the Okeetee club itself should be called Okeetees, and snakes like mine should be called "Lookatees". Is there a chance that you got "Kentucky" and Okeetee confused? It sounds to me as though you might have, even though Okeetees have nothing to do with the amel or anery genes either.

Third picture is of an amel. The amel gene removes black pigment.

The fourth picture is of an anery motley. Her colors are a little lighter because of the motley gene, but she is mostly a pastelly grey beast. The anery gene removes all reds.

The last picture is of a snow motley. She is the sister of the anery motley. She displays both amel and anery at the same time.

All of the snakes in these pictures are mine and I know their homozygous traits as well as their heterozygous traits.

You have pretty much stated that all these snakes are the same thing. They don't look the same to me. If they look the same to you, perhaps you have a problem with color perception?

Jaded_Heart said:

well let's look at the bigger picture. if ALL of the wild population carried Amel and Anery, you would run into visual Amels and Anerys AND snows in the wild ALL the time because obviously all these het animals would be breeding in the wild.

Since this DOESN'T happen (once in a blue moon someone will find an anery in the wild) it's pretty safe to say that that claim is very presumptuous and unlikely at best.

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I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember that it was Bernard Betchel who discovered the first amel corn back in 1963 in Florida. I also remember reading that that male is the ancestor of over 90% of the amel corns alive today. If I am wrong, someone please correct me but I don't think I'm wrong.

Maybe he is seeing those genes as what they look like, not as what they don't. So he sees amel as red/orange and anery as grey/black. But he doesn't think of them like we do, which is amel = lacking black and anery = lacking orange. In that sense, a normal can be amel and anery. (i'm not saying it is, i'm just saying that might be how he is looking at it) Because normals have the oranges and the blacks. So by his visual deffinition they have amel and anery.

aries said:

Shiari the thing is even though snow does not show in the pic believe me its there. This is a result of 3 years of hard research and trial by breeding. I will post pics after they have shed. By shear definition a true kentucky normal is a combo of both amel and anery. Typically showing an prodominately orange corn with heavy black around the saddles and a checkered belly. I kbow because i have a wc kentucky normal in my collection. I have worked dillegently to document and breed my corns for this reason. The cube pattern is a result of combining the stripe/ motley pattern together. It took 1 year to produce at least a 20% clutch of.them

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Where are you getting your information that a true ky normal is amel and anery? I have never seen one. Also know a few folks that have bred the snakes from w/c parents and never got anything besides pretty normals.
The main difference in Ky. corns is they are a heavier snake, have fewer dorsal saddles and are seldom found on trees like thier Florida kin.
There are very few populations of wild corns here in the Bluegrass. But are some very nice looking animals when you can find one.

Aries, I suspect we'll be craving for some pictures, in good or natural lighting, after the shedding is past.

I've always been excited by an excited hornets nest.

Thanks for sharing.

dave partington said:

Aries, I suspect we'll be craving for some pictures, in good or natural lighting, after the shedding is past.

I've always been excited by an excited hornets nest.

Thanks for sharing.

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I am allergic lol ewww bees

By shear definition a true kentucky normal is a combo of both amel and anery.

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I suspect the logic being used is that Amel gives orange and Anery gives black, therefore a Normal must be a combination of both as it has oranges and blacks.

However, with these morphs, it's the colour which is taken away which is significant. Amels are Normals with the black taken away. Anerys are Normals with the orange taken away. These morphs are the Normal with certain colours taken away. You can't reverse the equation so that Anery and Amel can be "added together" to give Normals.

It's just an accidental and incorrect switch in the way we look at how morphs behave.

Quote:
By shear definition a true kentucky normal is a combo of both amel and anery.

This is probabably true. I've met Bob and chatted with some of his friends who dont post on the site itself much. . . . . So I can't contain myself any longer.

What's the shear definition of a kentucky cornsnake then? The true kind.

Ouch, think I split a hair.

starsevol said:

I could be wrong here, but I seem to remember that it was Bernard Betchel who discovered the first amel corn back in 1963 in Florida. I also remember reading that that male is the ancestor of over 90% of the amel corns alive today. If I am wrong, someone please correct me but I don't think I'm wrong.

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if this is the case, then that would mean this one solitary animal was found and the gene was pretty much sourced from that single find.

Meaning: Amel is NOT common in the wild corn snake population. it's actually incredibly rare.

this backs up the idea that it would be very very INCORRECT to make a statement like "all wild Kentucky corn snakes are amel / carry amel" without first doing extensive breeding trials and keeping good records to document the proving of this :shrugs:

dave partington said:

Quote:
By shear definition a true kentucky normal is a combo of both amel and anery.

This is probabably true.

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Erm... It's arguably true (and I honestly wouldn't know so will have to take your steer) that Kentucky Normals carry hets for Amel and Anery more commonly than Normals from other areas. But no Normal Corn is a combo of Amel and Anery. "Normal" isn't made up of other morphs added together.

So you'll acquire a locality w/c KY cornsnake male you suspect to be of the recessive genotypes, breed it to her, hold back all the female offspring, raise them up, breed them back to the w/c male, and see how many anery and amel you extract from the pairing. Not saying it couldn't happen. Just because a het or homo amel or anery was found somewhere else doesn't mean your specific locality KY corns aren't carrying that. Or maybe you'll discover/find/isolate a new gene/trait/morph.