What is, and what is not a Zigzag?

Over the last year or so I have noticed a proliferation of corns for sale that are labeled as "ZigZag", or sometimes "Aztec", that do not to me personally, appear to fit that description (see attached photo). While I realize that this "morph" is line-bred, or perhaps polygenic, and thus it is not as straight-forward as being able to say a particular snake possesses, or does not posses a recessive mutation (e.g., amelanism), I was wondering if people on this forum have opinions about what should be called a ZigZag, and what should not. Specifically, I'm curious if we as a community can come to a consensus about how much aberrant pattern an individual must possess to warrant being labeled as "ZigZag" or "Aztec". It seems as if some snakes are being sold as Zigzag if they have ANY amount of aberrant pattern (i.e., even a single set of connected dorsal blotches). The names of the sellers have not been included in the photos as my intention here is not to "call-out" or challenge any particular seller or breeder. I just wanted to provide some examples of what we are discussing. Personally, I'm in favor of not referring to any corn with less than approximately 50% aberrant pattern a ZigZag or perhaps calling them "partial ZigZag". I realize there is absolutely no way to "enforce" whatever consensus we may arrive at, but because individuals that have nearly completely aberrant patterns command higher prices, it seems like some categories might make sense. I look forward to hearing what folks on this forum have to say on this topic.

... another thought, just to clarify: Personally, and for the sake of conversation here, I consider Zigzag, Aztec, and Widestripe to all be the same thing, or at least related somehow. I have several individual corns that display areas that fall in 2 or even all 3 of those categories. That is, a single snake with classic ZigZag/Zipper sections, and more chaotic "Aztec" sections, and broad "Widestripe" type sections. If folks would like to have a separate conversation about the differences between these "morphs", that could be fun as well

I think some people misunderstand what it should be, and/or some think they can pull a fast one on those who don't know any better.

Hi Heather, I think you are correct in both of those cases. I've even seen a couple of examples where someone stated that their snakes were "Het Aztec", which of course can't be correct based on what we know currently. I suppose I just don't like to see people misled, even if it is unintentional. Perhaps if we can get enough people to weigh-in here, then this conversation could serve as a reference to refer people to when we see a mislabeled snake. The photos on Ian's Vivarium (https://iansvivarium.com/morphs/?m=zigzag&sid=725d111d95b05a95623ba6f444c81015) show some good examples as well.

If you see mislabeled ads on morph market, definitely hit the flag button and let the staff know! I agree that I would only consider something as a zigzag or Aztec if it has at least 50% of its pattern zigzaggy. Any other lower amount I simply call it whatever morph it is with a bit of aberrant patterning. I think just like calling every normal an okeetee, calling any corn with a slight amount of connected saddles or aberrant pattern a zigzag (or Aztec or widestripe) is sometimes intentional to boost sales and sometimes simply ignorant.

I've noticed some of those very same ads, Neil, as well as the same type of error in others. If anything less than 2/3 of the animal is patterned, I don't personally refer to it as Zig-Zag or Aztec. Nor, come to that, wide-stripe, although that's not actually something I've come across much. I'm fine with the term partial Zig-Zag and have used it in the case of a female I once had who was about half patterned. Since very few snakes have entirely regular, symmetrical saddles, I don't think irregularities of <10% of the body should even be mentioned. More than that but not half the body I refer to as aberrant patterning. Of course, those parameters are just mine, not anything official. Which is part of the issue, I guess. Clear as mud? Lol



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Here is a little writeup I did about the "Aztecs" a while back.

https://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145917

Personally, before I would have put such a label on one I produced, it would have to have a substantial portion of the dorsal pattern containing this aberrant pattern. At minimum, at least half or so of the body. Just one or two fused dorsal blotches would have qualified, in my opinion.

Actually I dropped using that term after a while as it became too cumbersome (does anyone else wonder about the people who live in Cumberland ) when combining "Aztec" as a descriptor along with all the genetic lines involved. And after a few years of trial breedings, I just gave up trying to enhance that look, or at least produce predictable results. So that just became a "bonus goody" to anyone who specifically wanted such a pattern. But I guess others feel differently about that now.

Honestly, none of the examples in the photos above would have qualified to wear the label of "Aztec" had I produced them and offered them for sale.

Rich Z said:

...

Actually I dropped using that term after a while as it became too cumbersome (does anyone else wonder about the people who live in Cumberland )

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They're used to hard going in land what's cumbered with rocks big and little, except when they're drifting easy down the Cumberland River, all unencumbered- like. At least that's what my Kentucky friends and kin tell me. [emoji6]

Rich Z said:

...Honestly, none of the examples in the photos above would have qualified to wear the label of "Aztec" had I produced them and offered them for sale.

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Yep. I gotta say, I look at ads like those and ask that perennial question, "Are they clueless or are they crooked?"



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As I was reading the first post I was thinking 50% would be my cut off before I even got to that part. I've used the term aberrant a few times.

Thanks to everyone who has shared their opinions thus far. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who felt those ads were in error. It seems that everyone agrees that a corn should have at least 50% aberrant pattern to be labeled "ZigZag/Aztec/Widestripe", which is refreshing, because trying to arrive at a consensus on ANYTHING these days seems nearly impossible Personally, I try not to buy ZigZags unless they have at least ~75% aberrant pattern (unless they happen to have some other fun genetics.

Thanks to Rich for pointing out his previous post, which seems to support the idea that perhaps "ZigZag/Aztec/Widestripe" are in fact, all various levels of expression of this "morph?, mutation?, polygene complex?... IDK.

As for flagging mislabeled animals on MorphMarket, Fauna Classifieds, or on this site for that matter, I hope some of you will do so when you see examples that need to be corrected. Once I contacted a seller on MM to very politely point out that the animals that were labeled as ZigZag were in fact, not ZigZags. The seller politely thanked me but did not change the ad, and the animals were sold for far more than they were worth (IMO)

SnakeSmithS said:

As for flagging mislabeled animals on MorphMarket, Fauna Classifieds, or on this site for that matter, I hope some of you will do so when you see examples that need to be corrected. Once I contacted a seller on MM to very politely point out that the animals that were labeled as ZigZag were in fact, not ZigZags. The seller politely thanked me but did not change the ad, and the animals were sold for far more than they were worth (IMO)

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Yeah, having your ad be corrected is not something many people take well! Personally, I just skip that and hit the flag button to let the morph market staff know what has been mislabeled. With the exception of one seller (who *still* has very incorrectly labeled ads, ugh), I think having the morph market staff contact them instead of someone random carries a bit more weight.

...I think I know exactly what seller you are referring to, and I did report one of their ads to MM staff for misuse of the "trait tags" and for having descriptions like "Anery: Het Snow", and "Caramel: Het Butter" etc... That particular seller has been in the business for quite a long time, and should know better (i.e., have a basic understanding of mendelian genetics), but they seem to think that their notoriety excludes them from having to follow the rules regarding not misrepresenting animals they have for sale. I don't think any of us want to have to "police" other sellers, but I also feel like we have some obligation to try to prevent less knowledgeable people from being taken advantage of. Not to mention, it is in the best interest of the hobby to have correct information represented. I've certainly made some mistakes when posting ads, but was horrified when I realized the mistake (thankfully before anyone else did), and made corrections immediately. Oh well...

Well, to be perfectly honest, since I also run FaunaClassifieds, if someone were to report such a thing, nothing would be done by staff concerning the ID the seller is using. That is simply because we would be meddling, in my opinion. Who is to say what is correct or not correct in such things? Even blatant misrepresentation is left up to the potential buyers to determine. I mean, who is to say if someone would be incorrect if in THEIR opinion an Aztec only needs to have two blotches fused together in order to qualify for wearing that label? I have seen people claiming that hypos were amelanistics because of the red tint to the eyes. I guess the older I get the more I think that many arguments are best just avoided. No one really likes to be corrected, even if they may publicly claim so. Just because my opinion may be different than someone else's is certainly not grounds to harass sellers over it.

Now, if I could ONLY follow my own advice.....

It is a thankless job trying to correct sellers, and a path I choose to no longer take, if I can restrain myself. I prefer just letting the buying public make their own decisions, and hopefully do their own due diligence in their purchasing decisions. Lord knows I have had lots of people report issues that honestly, I could not understand the logic of their complaint. So I get faced with the choice of pissing off the complainer, or pissing off the complainee. Sometimes BOTH. Thanks, but NO thanks. You all likely have NO idea how many times I have pissed someone off because I refused to ban someone they wanted me to. :nope:

Perhaps admins of other sites take a different view of such things, but in such cases, more power to them. They, too, will likely soon find out that continually kicking a hornet's nest is really no fun at all.

Rich, I'm just curious if setting someone to "ignore list" on fauna makes it so their ads aren't visible or hidden from view? I don't want to flag their ads because technically there is nothing wrong with them but I also don't want to see ads from the vendor.

Rich Z said:

Perhaps admins of other sites take a different view of such things, but in such cases, more power to them. They, too, will likely soon find out that continually kicking a hornet's nest is really no fun at all.

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Yeah, I know fauna runs differently, so I wouldn't try to 'report' ads there. Although since it's still a forum-style website, I have no problem leaving a comment on the seller's post if they have something very obviously misidentified.

As for morph market, they have actual paid staff whose job it is to handle such reports and I've directly asked them if they want me to report things that are mislabeled or miscategorized and they have said absolutely yes. And personally, I only report things that are very clearly wrong. The seller I was referring to has a bunch of snakes that are labeled as homozygous sunkissed and show absolutely none of the signs of being sunkissed. That seller also labels things as diffused that clearly show belly checkers. I personally don't report things that are somewhat subjective, like whether something counts as a Miami or an okeetee.

I'm all in favor of due diligence in all things, and this area isn't an exception. I've tried reaching out to sellers about errors; it rarely goes well. That said, I do occasionally report MM ads which are wildly and obviously incorrect. Like Neil, I'd hate for all of us to be tarred with that brush.

Recently I politely contacted a seller who advertised a "----- Corn Snake," which wasn't a corn snake. This wasn't just the category, mind you. They called it corn snake in their write-up as well. The term used generally denotes a hybrid, so I asked if that's what they'd meant. The seller basically replied, "Oh no, it's not a hybrid corn! It's pure rat snake, and got accidentally mislabeled. But it's pure!"I thought they'd take the ad down, but nope. So I reported it, and down it went. [emoji1325]

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67temp said:

Rich, I'm just curious if setting someone to "ignore list" on fauna makes it so their ads aren't visible or hidden from view? I don't want to flag their ads because technically there is nothing wrong with them but I also don't want to see ads from the vendor.

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The ignore list in vBulletin blocks you from being able to see all posts from anyone you place on that list. So yes, it does filter out those ads so you don't have to see them.

hypnoctopus said:

Yeah, I know fauna runs differently, so I wouldn't try to 'report' ads there. Although since it's still a forum-style website, I have no problem leaving a comment on the seller's post if they have something very obviously misidentified.

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Yes, that is acceptable on FaunaClassifieds. When I dumped the Board Of Inquiry, I had to make changes in the way we dealt with the classifieds sections there to keep the place from becoming a safe haven for scammers. Allowing replies in the actual ads themselves seemed like a plausible way of doing that. In that manner, people posting negative comments about an ad would eventually force the original author to delete the ad to remove all such disrupting comments. And eventually they will likely just go elsewhere, when they get the message that they weren't welcome there by their targeted potential, but now wiser, customers. But, of course, this could cause problems with legitimate sellers being attacked by ghost competitors and just malicious postings, which keeps the moderators on their toes. So there were no easy answers.