Stargazer gene still around?

It's been a couple years since I asked about this, and got some good info, know now that it was tracked down pretty much to what lines it originated from. But what still has me thinking, is that it would have only taken a couple resells of hets and new owners not being aware or not online and seeing anything about it, bred carriers of the gene, and it has made it's way into many lines, unknown.
I was so worried back then and almost went to get a stargazer to prove my breeders didn't have it. I still might do this, just to know and do my potential part to clean the genetic pool. I guess I never got around to getting an example because I didn't have my 1st collection long enough to get into breeding. But I have now and plan 4 or 5 breedings next year.
What are your thoughts on the spread/existance still of this gene? TY for your input!

My thoughts are that I'm personally not too concerned about it. If I find out I have it, I wouldn't breed those animals again.

But actually, I want a stargazer for a pet. I think it's just as interesting as any of the other Mendelian traits out there, and I would take it into lab when teaching Mendelian genetics, just like I take in all the others.

it is still around! unfortunately much breeders, also the big ones, don't care about it and don't tell the customers that there's gazer in their line - here in europe, we will become problems with it during the next years.

There are MUCH gazer-carriers in different morphs around.

@desertanimal
you want an ill animal with serious problems as a pet?? strange attitude... I would understand to keep them for testing the stock but I wouldn't keep those poor creatures as a pet...

JimGERcream said:

you want an ill animal with serious problems as a pet?? strange attitude... I would understand to keep them for testing the stock but I wouldn't keep those poor creatures as a pet...

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Do they really suffer? I have read they eat & shed & mate normally, and females lay eggs without difficulty, and in general exhibit normal behavior other than the "stargazing" neurologic issue. That doesn't sound like suffering to me. Are they thought to be in pain? Otherwise, for a teacher to keep one as a ~teaching~ pet would make sense, but if they are actively suffering, then it would not make sense to me.

speaking of gazers as pets: I don't know if they feel pain or something similar, but they are handicapped/retarded (don't know the right word), so is it right to pair animals with the target to produce handicapped/retarded animals? I don't think so... I know, there are much people who don't think the same and they argue in a similar way like thy did it with those poor scaleless corns, but in my opinion, a targeted breeding for handycapped/retarded animals can't be ethical. every breeder has to carry responsibility, and there are not much boundaries in our hobby, but this has to be one.


I think it is important to produce some for testing someone's stock so that we can delete the gazer gene of our stocks, there's no other way to check it.

@desertanimal
I hope you don't got me wrong, no offense against you! I just took the idea of gazers as pets from your post in order to give a general statement.

JimGERcream said:

I know, there are much people who don't think the same and they argue in a similar way like thy did it with those poor scaleless corns, but in my opinion, a targeted breeding for handycapped/retarded animals can't be ethical. every breeder has to carry responsibility, and there are not much boundaries in our hobby, but this has to be one.

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I was more asking my question because if I produced a SG by accident, I would consider keeping it as a pet. And I think the poster who mentioned the idea was thinking the same thing specifically because she teaches science & genetics, that she would like to adopt one that had been produced as part of SG testing, so that she could use it to further her students' education. I know I wasn't thinking about breeding them as pets, and I don't think she was either.

Edit: I am sure desertanimal would NOT breed them! She's a good person.

keeping those as an example for genetical diseases, especially as a techer, is something different than "just" keep it because it makes those funky head shaking moves. I totally agree with you.

you produced one? from sunkissed lines?

maybe this is also interesting for you. one of our european breeders found out that he has stargazer in his lines, he's a really honest guy and told it to the whole community.

he had a nice clutch...but it turned out be a diseaster



if it doesn't work, use this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GBQRjBEEU0&feature=player_embedded#!

JimGERcream said:

keeping those as an example for genetical diseases, especially as a techer, is something different than "just" keep it because it makes those funky head shaking moves. I totally agree with you.

you produced one? from sunkissed lines?

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No, it hasn't happened to me. It may though. SG is pretty widespread in the USA and I plan to work with SK in the future. And I would never keep one just because it moves funny, but because it's a nice snake who deserves a nice life.

Wow, I thought that was bad when I read about it, but to actually see the hatchlings- how sad.

Because it appears to be a vestibular disease... those who want one as a pet:

Imagine being constantly dizzy, always disoriented, to varying degrees... forever.

It's harder to see just what is going in snakes, they can't fall over the way a 4-legged critter can... so, here's a video of a dog with vestibular disease. It's a decent representation, in its own way, of an agitated stargazer. Still think it'd be fun to have one?

Stargazers

I am currently testing my line of sunkisseds for stargazing.
I will let people know if I find the line clean or not.
I always try to only keep and use the healthiest stock there is and have been continueing to outcross most of all my projects.Starting with the hardiest animals in all my projects.The amount of time and luck involved to produce new projects should be always the first thing considered.
Cornsnakes lay large numbers of eggs and only the strongest survive in the wild.
For me I dont have the time to work with anything less then the best stock ...

Shiari said:

Because it appears to be a vestibular disease...

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Is there research to support that, or just your opinion?

wstphal mentioned..

Do they really suffer? I have read they eat & shed & mate normally, and females lay eggs without difficulty, and in general exhibit normal behavior other than the "stargazing" neurologic issue. That doesn't sound like suffering to me. Are they thought to be in pain? Otherwise, for a teacher to keep one as a ~teaching~ pet would make sense, but if they are actively suffering, then it would not make sense to me.

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Do they suffer? I don't think so, like you said they eat and shed like any other corn.. I can not confirm the breeding and egg laying part yet. When my Star Gazers are at rest you would never know they have a neurological issue, but get them stimulated/excited/nervous interaction, they will revert back to almost the identical moves they had as youngsters... With my time around my own personal pair of gazers, I don't believe, in my uneducated view, that these animals are suffering in pain in any manner.. They don't have the easiest time getting around at times, especially when they are stimulated, but they are far from suffering..

JimGER mentioned...

I would understand to keep them for testing the stock but I wouldn't keep those poor creatures as a pet...

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I understand english is not your first language, so I have tried to keep that in mind without trying to tear a strip off of you..

Until you have had the joy of working with these stargazers, you have had to base your opinions on what you have seen and heard, from mouthes and videos. I think I can safely assume that you don't know anyone who has adults. At some point my girls will be shifted from Pets to being breeders to testing out a certain animals, and then after they have helped me along, I am certainly not going to off them poor creatures because they are retards. I intend to care for them for the rest of their lives, as this is what I consider to be the most ethically correct thing to do. Does this make me some monster or twisted individual ? I don't think so.. Does it make me unethical? No.. I don't think I have heard anyone here ever say they are intending to create a a clutch of Stargazers to profit of the Gazer animals, I think you have come to the wrong choir to preach ethics too..

If I produce Stargazers in my future testings, as I have said publically on many occasions, its not going to be an easy task to have me depart with the offspring.. Although an individual like Stephanie is more than likely one of those individuals that would be considered.. Other wise my kings and milks will likely have a feast, and that in my humble opinion, is what I feel would be the best thing to do..

Regards... Tim of T and J

The clinical signs, as presented, are fairly classic for vestibular disease in mammals. There's a phrase "never euthanise an old, rolling dog" in vet med, for this reason. With vestibular dogs and cats, you can use meds to lessen the signs, and maybe even cure it. Unless agitated, they do not appear ataxic which lessens the likelihood of it being neuromuscular in origin.

To quote from the other forum:

CLINICAL SIGNS

* Condition present at hatch
* Condition does not worsen over time (may appear to improve as the snake learns to adapt with age)
* More noticeable when the snake is agitated/excited
* Appear normal at rest (though may assume bizarre positions at times)
* Will weave the head back and forth, sometimes rolling the head back or to the side
* When fleeing, may crawl upside down or flip between back to stomach
* Often will sit with head raised up or flipped over backwards
* Hugs the hand tight, crawling backwards to stabilize itself when unbalanced/picked up
* Unpredicatable crawling, especially when agitated, uncoordinated
* Eats, Drinks, Sheds, Grows, Breeds, Lays Eggs Normally (other than the above mentioned signs)
* Has never been shown to be contagious, even with co-habbed snakes or siblings
* Other than imbalance, does not impact the quality of the snake's life, does not affect cognitive ability, and the snakes display the same emotions as normal snakes with no sign of added stress due to the condition (i.e. they don't appear to suffer from the condition)


What we have tested so far:

* A full pathologic evaluation was done on a sacrificed hatchling stargazing corn snake to determine if there is an anatomic cause for the condition or any signs of viral disease (inclusion bodies in cells typical of viral infection). The histopathologic results were detailed and normal. No cause for the condition was seen at a microscopic level.


Tests recommended to be completed in the future

* Full blood screen to rule out certain metabolic causes.
* Histopathologic analysis on an adult stargazer to give the pathologist a larger specimen to examine to see if subtle anatomic defects are present that weren't seen in the hatchling.
* A CSF analysis would be helpful, though technically challenging to collect.

Because it appears to be a vestibular disease... those who want one as a pet:

Imagine being constantly dizzy, always disoriented, to varying degrees... forever.

It's harder to see just what is going in snakes, they can't fall over the way a 4-legged critter can... so, here's a video of a dog with vestibular disease. It's a decent representation, in its own way, of an agitated stargazer. Still think it'd be fun to have one?

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Not even close or accurate representation IMHO... Star gazers IMHO do not act dizzy... IMHO its more like Parkinsons disease.. I have a pair of Sub adult Stargazers that I have raised from hatchlings, that I have observed and can observe that at practically any state ..

It should be noted, that the movment that they do, is practically the same movement they did as hatchlings... They adults DO NOT constantly twith and pitch their bodies like the stimulated hatchlings were doing in the provided video... The adults spaz when they stimulated... Yes there are slight tremours when they are slowly moving. A great example is when they move out of their hides to investigate the shadow that went by.. They DO NOT trash around.. But reach in to grab them, and they go spazzing out.. Stimulation tends to make the movements worse.. I am quite sure Dr Hurley has made a similair observations..

Shiari said:

Imagine being constantly dizzy, always disoriented, to varying degrees... forever.

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Umm, Megan, I wasn't saying I wanted one as a pure pet. Nor was desertanimal, if I understood her correctly, I thought she was saying she would give one a nonbreeding forever home & and use the condition to help her students' education.

I was saying that if I wound up with one as a result of my planned breedings I wouldn't necessarily euthanize it if it didn't seem stressed or unhappy. I would give it a forever home with me, not breed it unless I was doing SG testing with it (although if I produce one I will have to test EVERYONE against a known SG after that!). I don't think the abnormal movements are amusing. But I have read that the snakes seem to cope OK, so I would be hardpressed to feed one off to a kingsnake, I would be likely to be too softhearted.

Star gazing is very similar to "wobble" effect in spider ball pythons. My spider BP has a fairly severe wobble, but he can eat, move, poo, and generally seems to enjoy life. He's the first one to come and greet me and one of the best snakes I own. He will be a pet only for his entire life. I can't bear to put him down because he truly seems to have a zest for life.

I agree with TandJ, until you have worked them directly it's a little hard to wrap your mind around.

wstphal said:

Umm, Megan, I wasn't saying I wanted one as a pure pet. Nor was desertanimal, if I understood her correctly, I thought she was saying she would give one a nonbreeding forever home & and use the condition to help her students' education.

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Then I apologise for misreading. It appeared to me that she wanted one purely to have one because they are interesting... basically for personal enjoyment.

And to TandJ... The writhing/circling/backtracking doesn't seem dizzy to you? But then again, how would you be able to tell if a snake is dizzy either way? They do not appear to get nystagmus the way mammals do.

A vestibular dog or cat can be quite calm until moved. Then they spaz because their frame of reference has been altered. The video I chose was of a recently diagnosed dog. If you go on youtube, you can find recovering vestibular dogs that instead have the head tilt/wobble and a tendency to lean and list and tremble when walking, but are not full circling/flailing anymore.

Star gazing is very similar to "wobble" effect in spider ball pythons. My spider BP has a fairly severe wobble, but he can eat, move, poo, and generally seems to enjoy life. He's the first one to come and greet me and one of the best snakes I own. He will be a pet only for his entire life. I can't bear to put him down because he truly seems to have a zest for life.

I agree with TandJ, until you have worked them directly it's a little hard to wrap your mind around.

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People do not understand that.. I have been fortunante enough to have been gifted the Gazers, and have also seen the Wobble head Spider balls first hand.. I don't think there is much of a similairity there, other than these problems did not from normal patterned animals initially..

There is certainly something going and it might be very linked to the pattern mutation.. IMHO, Sunkissed is not a Hypo, it is a pattern mutant...