Your Opinions Please

OK...I'm in a quandary. I have 3 unbrumated females (and maybe a 4th) that I'm debating breeding this year but am not really 100% sure. I would like everyone's opinions on whether I should try or not.

The first 2 females are both 2004 hatchlings. They were not brumated because they were not up to weight when I put everybody else in brumation. However, over the past 3 months, they have put on some weight and are now both about 310 grams and are in great condition.

The third female is a 2003 hatchling. She definitely has the age and the condition, but she has always been a slow grower and on the small side. She only weighs 280 grams as of today. I've had small females before that have had no trouble breeding, but this female has only just reached this weight this month.

The possible fourth female is also an '04 hatchling, and she's close to the 300 gram mark today, but I think she's just a touch overweight and may not be ready for breeding this year.

Do I try any or all of these females? Since they have not been brumated, they may not produce eggs anyway. Plus, I'll be trying an unbrumated virgin male with one and a brumated virgin male with another that didn't try to court another female a few weeks ago.

Susan said:

OK...I'm in a quandary. I have 3 unbrumated females (and maybe a 4th) that I'm debating breeding this year but am not really 100% sure. I would like everyone's opinions on whether I should try or not.

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Well here's my opinion...

The first 2 females are both 2004 hatchlings. They were not brumated because they were not up to weight when I put everybody else in brumation. However, over the past 3 months, they have put on some weight and are now both about 310 grams and are in great condition.

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How is their muscle tone and general feel? The 300g rule is a good guide, but I would breed a strong muscular 275g female before a chubby 325g female. If they're pretty solid and that weight is not cubby-ness then I say go for it.

The third female is a 2003 hatchling. She definitely has the age and the condition, but she has always been a slow grower and on the small side. She only weighs 280 grams as of today. I've had small females before that have had no trouble breeding, but this female has only just reached this weight this month.

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Related to my response above, I would breed a 280g female if she was in good shape. This one concerns me though because she has gotten to this size so slowly. I imagine that it would take her longer to recover after laying eggs than other snakes; so in this case I would probably wait another year and let her pack on a little bit more. Especially if she's going to recover slowly; at such a borderline weight I wouldn't risk it.

The possible fourth female is also an '04 hatchling, and she's close to the 300 gram mark today, but I think she's just a touch overweight and may not be ready for breeding this year.

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See above; if she's 300g but chubby/overweight/etc then I would try and slim her down and wait another year, or even later this summer (if you don't mind having babies a little late).

Do I try any or all of these females? Since they have not been brumated, they may not produce eggs anyway. Plus, I'll be trying an unbrumated virgin male with one and a brumated virgin male with another that didn't try to court another female a few weeks ago.

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In summary, it sounds to me that it's pretty safe to try the 1st two; the 2nd two I would wait on. I would rather wait another year and be on the safe side than to risk it. As for brumating; this is the first year I have ever brumated (simply because I wanted to force breeding earlier to better fit my schedule), but in all the years past I have not brumated and they have always bred just fine and produced nice healthy clutches. So I wouldn't worry about that.

Thats a tough one. I would say you could go ahead and try to breed the first two. They are over 300 grams but still pretty small. I just don't want anything bad to happen. Because they only weight that much they could easily lose too much weight after laying. Lets hear what other (smarter) people have to say.

I don't have much experience with this Susan however heres my two pennies...

The females IMO are the right age to breed (in regards to "guidelines"). The weights I just don't know. I have an 05 300 gram female I also haven't brumated, and few more than willing males. But I look at her compared to 600 gram Panther and think shes just a baby. Sure she could produce, but I wouldn't put her through it at only 300 grams and 2 years old.

Maybe it's down to personal preference but I wouldn't breed anything under 300. I wouldn't want to breed "small genes" into my corns. I want big, healthy, muscular mums who I know can cope with the physical stresses of producing eggs. If a female is genetically small shes off my breeders list. But thats entirely my preference. I'm not saying your shouldn't breed small females at all, its just how I feel.

And I think that if you have a good feeling about these females then go for it. I know if they were mine I would hold off until next year.

Susan I am definitely certain that you are as, or more, experienced than I. Personally, I think you should go for whatever feels right to you! My second year breeding, I followed "the book" (and yes, it's in "the book") and bred two females that were right at 260 grams. They did just fine, laid beautifully normal eggs, hatched wonderful little hatchlings etc. One of the two immediately started eating after that clutch, the other became a hit and miss feeder for 2 months before returning to normal. After that bump, she ate heartily up to, and out of, brumation and was well over 350 grams the following season, but she had me nervous. There were no indicators other than a skipped meal or two leading up to that breeding season.

Looking back, I'm not so proud of having bred those two that year, BUT, I feel as though I learned a ton about breeding! I no longer breed anything under 300 grams, and most of my snakes are well into the 300's before breeding. There's maybe one or two that are at the cutoff (I bred my HypoLav female due to her increased activity and aggressiveness at feeding time the past two weeks, and she's at 305 grams). Depending on their history, I don't breed anything that has shifty eating patterns leading up to breeding. I have a couple proven breeders which are well above 450 grams that skip a meal or two out of brumation, but historically they never have had problems eating after the fact.

In short, I guess I fully trust your judgement on your animals and go with what you think feels right!
D80

I don't think breeding anything under 300 grams is passing along 'small genes'.

I bred my anery female with my male snow last year---the anery was around 325 and the male snow was 175ish.

She laid a clutch of 12 gorgeous eggs and those babies were rather big---and were the fastest growing snakes that hatched for me last year.

I'd have NO problems breeding a 275 gram snake if it was known that she was a bit older (the anery is at least a 2002) and isn't going to be one of those 500 gram adults. Some snakes just don't get that big---no matter what you do.

And hell, I had a 175 gram bloodred last year lay a clutch of 8 slugs on me in August and she was just fine. She wasn't brumated, and wasn't with a male---I was cleaning her cage one day and found her clutch of slugs.

I am very clueless to it all since I am just learning about cornsnake breeding. I wish you the best of luck though with whatever you chose!

Thanks everyone! I'm still not sure if I'll breed all of them. I may just try the best female, my opal with my amel motley het lavender. He's the male that had no interest in my normal het lavender female earlier, so if they breed, fine, if not, then oh well!

I think Joes made the best points here and I would like to back them up with more evidence.
400 gram hypo male x 270 gram (but strong) ghost, ghost female layed 13 eggs all fine until my incubator went mental and fried them, along with my 550 gram female butters 20 eggs
Anything above 260 grams is fine with me aslong as the female is a known very good feeder and has the muscle tone of a larger snake, I have a 260 gram ghost that has the strenth of my 550 gram butter i mentioned earlier, its remarkable.
I say go for what feels right, remember survival of the fittest, choose the strongest most muscular snakes, who is going to win a marathon after all? a lighter muscular person or a larger weightier person? if the snakes fit, healthy and strong go for it.
I wish you the best of luck