Are kinks safe for breeding

I would like some help and advice on the following subject. I currently own a lovely hypo lavender male which has a small kink in his back. As he has grown the kink has ironed out quite considerably where you would not know it was there unless you ran your fingers down his back. I spoke to the original breeder who informed me that the parents have never produced kinked offspring beofre and in this case, it may of been caused thruogh a temperature related matter. I have also been advised that this kink could also be the result of the hatchling staying in the egg to long and that a trial breeding with a proven heathyfemale is really the only way that i will know whether he can be included into further breeding projcts. It would be nice to hear from anyone who has any experiece on this topic.:shrugs:

There's always going to be a risk of producing kinked offspring. As you say, you can only prove it one way or the other by doing it. If you breed, you need to be prepared to deal with kinked hatchlings.

You could sell them on strictly as "pets" but you'd never have a guarantee that owners wouldn't breed them, or wouldn't sell them on later to someone who would breed them.

The only other options are keeping all kinked hatchlings as non-breeding pets yourself (expensive) or being prepared to euthanase an entire kinked clutch of hatchlings (very upsetting).

It's always going to be a matter for your own judgement. But if I were in your position, I really wouldn't risk it.

While there may be correlation between kinked offspring and other issues. I do know that kinked offspring IS or can be caused by keeping the eggs too wet.

I would like to see notes and actual data on the idea that kinked snakes produce kinked snakes. I seriously suspect that as a wives tale.

I would think it would be ill advised to breed a potentially genetic defect. I had to cull the majority of a clutch of Lavender Motleys in 2007 because so many turned out kinked. As a breeder, it is your responsibility to produce the best, healthiest pets (or breeders) for your buyers. I personally do not view kinking as healthy or something that shows the "best" of a species.

For data on kinked snakes producing kinked snakes...Do some research on the Caramel Ball Python. That mutation is known for its kinks and some breeders continue the problem by breeding the kinked animals instead of culling.

I actually look at it from a different angle.
If you know there's a genetic defect that hurts the quality of life for the parents, why force a new generation to bear it?
And even if the clutch would all be visible healthy, maybe the defect behaves like a recessive gene?
I wouldn't do it. Not because of buyer's issue with it, or the financial cost. But because I am forcing life into snakes that may end up suffering for it for their entire life span.

If you really want to breed, get a couple of adult, healthy corns.

I have a Leusistic Texas Ratsnake- the moment I learned that his defect (bubble eyes) was inheritable, I removed him from the "breeding" cycle altogether.
He did breed once, with a female of a friend, cause I was unaware it. But I have no intention of allowing him to breed again.
It may be a bit unfair on him, but it will be far more unfair if his offspring prove to suffer the same condition.

I don't believe that kinking is genetic, however, I wouldn't breed him.

In the case of the caramel ball python, that is a genetic defect caused by the genes in the morph. There isn't really a specific morph of corn that gets kinks, it seems to be generalized.

But again, better safe than sorry. I wouldn't breed.

ziggybond_007 said:

I don't believe that kinking is genetic, however, I wouldn't breed him.

In the case of the caramel ball python, that is a genetic defect caused by the genes in the morph. There isn't really a specific morph of corn that gets kinks, it seems to be generalized.

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In one breath you say kinking isn't genetic, and in the next you say it is. The Caramel Ball Python is a well known example of genetic kinking. No, there is not currently a specific morph in Cornsnakes that shows kinks as frequently as Caramel Ball Pythons...But that is in my opinion because there has not been the inbreeding (or greed) seen in Cornsnakes that there has been with Ball Pythons.



In the end, Fitz...Do what you feel is right...But be prepared.

TripleMoonsExotic said:

I would think it would be ill advised to breed a potentially genetic defect. I had to cull the majority of a clutch of Lavender Motleys in 2007 because so many turned out kinked. As a breeder, it is your responsibility to produce the best, healthiest pets (or breeders) for your buyers. I personally do not view kinking as healthy or something that shows the "best" of a species..

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I COMPLETELY agree!!!!

I am getting a king snake soon to feed deformed hatchlings to! :eatsmiley
I'd far rather feed them (dead of course) to something else than just throw them away or bury them....

CrotalusCo said:

I would like to see notes and actual data on the idea that kinked snakes produce kinked snakes.

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Me too. In fact, in the cornsnake world it is suspected but I have not seen reliable data to indicate one way or another. As a result, I intend to conduct future breeding trials using kinked animals to give a better notion of what it really is. (And yes, this may cause a stir but the scientist in me wants to see empirical data on the subject.)

Kokopelli said:

But because I am forcing life into snakes that may end up suffering for it for their entire life span.

I have a Leusistic Texas Ratsnake- the moment I learned that his defect (bubble eyes) was inheritable, I removed him from the "breeding" cycle altogether.
It may be a bit unfair on him, but it will be far more unfair if his offspring prove to suffer the same condition.

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What makes you think bubble eyes is a defect which promotes suffering? As far as I know, although it may not look right it does not appear to have painful associations.

TripleMoonsExotic said:

The Caramel Ball Python is a well known example of genetic kinking. No, there is not currently a specific morph in Cornsnakes that shows kinks as frequently as Caramel Ball Pythons...But that is in my opinion because there has not been the inbreeding (or greed) seen in Cornsnakes that there has been with Ball Pythons.

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Too true. I have sensed a trend in kinks and the lavender animals but there is no hard data to show that it is more than a mere coincidence and with such and gene like lavender it is outcrossed so often we probably don't see it like the ball pythons guys.



And...to answer the topic....I would breed them and see what happens. If you can't or don't want to deal with kinked babies, then breeding any pair of snakes would be a bad thing. I've had perfectly healthy adults produce kinked babies before.

CrotalusCo said:

While there may be correlation between kinked offspring and other issues. I do know that kinked offspring IS or can be caused by keeping the eggs too wet.

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It can also be true with keeping them too dry, or too hot. If the kinks are caused by incubation temperature, it should't be inheritable.

I've had some non-kinked F2 snakes that would always give a proportion of kinked offspring when bred to related snakes (test crosses forces to inbreed, sorry), but none when outcrossed. In a case like that, it would likely be genetic due to inbreeding, so not necessarily due to a single gene defect, possibly multiple genes. This kind of genetic problem is easily overcomed with outcrossing, however.

CrotalusCo said:

I would like to see notes and actual data on the idea that kinked snakes produce kinked snakes. I seriously suspect that as a wives tale.

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I think so too, maybe a belief founded on generalization.

I agree that kinked snakes don't necessarily produce kinked snakes. Like Jeff, if you really want to breed it, go ahead and note your observations.

It's up to you. Honestly, I think that the kinking isn't that genetic (at least with corns), but is probably more of an environmental/developmental defect. You could breed him and see what happens. I personally wouldn't breed him. I also personally cull any and all hatchlings that are kinked/deformed.

MohrSnakes said:

Too true. I have sensed a trend in kinks and the lavender animals but there is no hard data to show that it is more than a mere coincidence and with such and gene like lavender it is outcrossed so often we probably don't see it like the ball pythons guys.

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I had maybe only produced a couple of kinked animals in breeding for over 10 years until I started working with lavenders. I bred a pair of anery het lavender motley last year and I had 4 kinked anery lavenders from her first clutch (none of the anerys were kinked). The other 5 from that clutch were just fine, and in her 2nd clutch all came out healthy. And it also seems that from reading the forums that most people's kinking comes from lavenders as well.

But as you say, its probably more coincidence...