2000 Trans Hypo male

[Serpwidgets]

It is clear from past posts that you are unable to acknowledge points of view that differ from your own regarding Okeetees:
Okeetee discussion
Another okeetee discussion

The kettle calls the saucer "black."

There is a world of difference between "disagree" and "don't acknowledge."

If you read those threads, you will clearly see that I'm saying there are multiple definitions. And the reason I give in both of those threads, and this thread, is that it's a matter of opinion and everyone has their own POV on the "look and feel" of the word and what it means to them. I not only acknowledge other points of view, they are the foundation of my entire argument about there being no single end-all definition of Okeetee.

Hmm. It seems that we are fairly consistent in our usage Serp.

In words, sure. It's easy to agree on something so blurry as "thick borders." But... make a 10 by 10 grid, with pictures of normals. As you go from left to right, the borders go from nonexistant to as bold as they get. As you go from top to bottom the ground color goes from gray to orange. Then ask 100 people "where would you draw a line between normal and Okeetee?" Some people might answer "from 3 across and 4 down" and others might answer "from 8 across, 8 down."

The point is, we all have our own opinions of "how thick?" and since they differ, it's not right to assert that the place where you draw the line should be accepted by everyone else as "the law." That is what you're doing, and then you accuse me of not acknowledging anyone else's perspectives. The kettle calls the saucer black.

A point does needs to be clarified if we are to continue. In your last post you stated:
quote:
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”As far as the "look" thing, I also completely disagree.”
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It's important to quote that in context. What I was disagreeing with is AggieTiff. He/she was arguing that a thin-bordered hypo Okeetee doesn't conform to the "okeetee look" idea. I followed that up with the comparison to Amel Okeetees. I stand by my statement.

Yet, this is from an older post by Serp:
quote:
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"As far as Okeetee being a locality, yes it is a locality. As far as Okeetee being a look, yes it is a look."….”Thus my assertion that they're equally valid.”
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So which is it?

Wind is a verb that means to turn something.
Wind is a noun that means moving air.

So which is it? It's both. That's what I am saying and have been saying for a long time. Why do you insist that it has to be one or the other?

In the post, I asked Joe:

quote:
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"if these "pure Okeetees" aren't from the Hunt Club and don't have broad, bold, black outlines because it is Hypo, why isn't it a Normal corn snake?"
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This is exactly the same as Serp saying that Okeetees are a variant of "normal"

I said Okeetee is a subset of normal.

You said a hypo is a normal. (?)

A hypo is not a normal. We aren't saying the same thing at all.

What I'm saying is that "Okeetee" is expanded by many people to be a subset of other morphs. For instance, Amel and Hypo. Amel modifies the "expected" look by removing the black, and hypo modifies the "expected" look by thinning/lightening the borders.

So that brings us to this quote from Serp:

quote:
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"he (CAV) turned around and clearly stated that his "definition" of "pure okeetee" is "the" definition, and Joe was "wrong" to use any other definition.
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Serp, I've documented that you and I use the exact same definitions. Doesn’t that mean that since I'm wrong, then we both are??

There is a consistent theme in all of my disagreements with people trying to say other people are misusing the term "Okeetee." I'm saying that you're "wrong" to assert that anything outside your narrow definition is inaccurate, or misrepresentation, or dishonest, or confusing the issue, or however you want to "paint" your argument. It all boils down to the same thing: you say it's "not Okeetee." Period. No matter how much you say, "I don't mean to get into locality definitions" the bottom line is that you are getting into locality definitions and asserting that the other person's definition is wrong.

I greatly respect the depth of your genetics knowledge. You disagree with me and that is fine. However, I resent your insinuation that I said
quote:
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"I don't mean to say that you're stupid, but dude, you are totally stupid”
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Disagreeing with my opinions is one thing, misrepresentation them is another.

It's not an insinuation, it's an anology. Please read it in context.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Just for the record

Just for the record. The two Trans Hypo Corn Snakes that I sent Charles and Kat are not pure locality corn snakes from Jasper County in the area of the Hunt Club. The fact that they don’t have areas around their borders that would be black is expected since they are out crossed to an amel corn that only had the look of an amel Okeetee. The parents of Charles and Kats Trans Hypo do not have any black borders around their blotches at all and neither do the Trans Hypo Corns that Charles and Kat have. The parents of Charles and Kats Trans Hypo Corns are the same parents that produced the first Blue Ice Corns. Many people who have looked at the parents of Charles and Kats snakes say they look like Hypo Corns, which they do. They do not have much black on them at all, and resemble Normal Hypos, except they do not have the opaque areas where the black is suppose to be since they are not hypos.


The Jasper County Corns Snakes that were collected in the area of Okeetee, do look like what anybody would expect a Okeetee collected in the area to look like. I will attach a couple of photos of normally colored Okeetee from this line which are pure locality corns. The Trans Hypo Okeetees, do have areas around the blotches that would be black if they were not hypos. They are pure blood corn snakes from corns collected in Jasper County in the Okeetee area. If you look at the photos you can see, that the Trans Hypo Okeetees, look the same as the normally colored pure locality Okeetees, except they are Hypos.

I have two separated breeding colonies of snakes from the locality corns which started the Hypo Okeetee line. I have a colony that is of pure blood that are direct dissidents from the original wild caught snakes from Jasper County. I also have a breeding colony which was began by crossing a Trans Hypo Okeetee, with an amel corn which was het for snow. This line is where the Blue Ice come from and Trans Hypo Corns, not (Trans Hypo Okeetees). I also have selectively bred for the Okeetee “Look”, in amel and snow. I only claim that some of the snakes from this line have the Okeetee look and are not pure locality corns. I maintain that the Trans Hypos Okeetees and Okeetees Het for Trans Hypo in my collections are pure locality corns from Jasper County in the Okeetee area. I can not claim they were collected on the Hunt Club Property, but they were collected in the immediate area and possibly on the Hunt Club Property. In my opinion, they are Pure Okeetee Corn Snakes from Jasper County with the same exact genetic make up of any F1’s from Corn Snakes collected on the Hunt Club Property.

Our discussions about the origins of the Trans Hypo gene can not be complete with out discussing where the original wild caught snakes were collected, so our discussions of the differences of opinion about what an Okeetee Corn Snake is relevant. The origins of the Trans Hypo gene is from wild caught snakes in Jasper County in the Okeetee area. My definitions of what an Okeetee Corn snake are this:

1) A corn snake with the Okeetee “LOOK” is called an Okeetee Corn Snake and most likely has some blood in them from Jasper County. These snakes should be sold as non locality corns with the Okeetee Look and not represented as pure locality corns. They are generic Okeetee Corns Snakes, with the only connection to wild caught snakes from Jasper County is that they resemble them in appearance.

2) Wild Caught or descendents from wild caught snakes from the Okeetee Hunt Club in Jasper County are Pure Okeetees Corn Snake from Jasper County, with the exact locality of capture confined to the 55,000 acre Hunt Club.

3) Wild Caught or descendents from wild caught corn snakes collected in Jasper County in the vicinity of the Hunt Club are pure Okeetee Corn Snakes with the same exact genetic make up as wild caught corns from the Hunt Club. The only difference from these corns and the ones collected on the Hunt Club Property is they do not have the distinction of being collected on the Hunt Club. In my opinion they are the exact same snake that crawls on the hunt club property and are therefore the same exact snake, but without the exact locality of capture.

There only thing that has been said about what a Pure Okeetee Corn Snake is, that is OK if it is just what someone wants their Okeetee Corn to have before they want them in their collection and is pure opinion, but it is not a valid reason to put down others Okeetee Corn Snakes. The statement of fact that a corn snake is a Pure Okeetee when it is crawling on the Hunt Club Property, but not a pure Okeetee Corn Snake when it crawls off of the Hunt Club Property is OK when we are talking about locality of capture, but to try to say that this snake that crawled off of the Hunt Club Property and was capture on one of the adjoining properties is not an Okeetee Corn Snake can only be claimed by someone who refuses to use common since and is not conceived of someone who has a analytical mind. The claim is absolutely preposterous, because we are talking about the exact same snake, not just one that is genetically the same. It is the exact same snake and in both cases this snake is an Okeetee Corn Snake, but captured in different areas.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Okeetee Corn Het Trans

This is not a great photo, but she is pure Okeetee from wild caught stock from Jasper County. She is het for Trans. None of the original parents of this line, had large black boarders around their blotches, but they do have black borders and are richly colored like other snakes captured in the area.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Tranparent Hypo Okeetee

This male Tran Hypo Okeetee is a pure locality corn snake from Jasper County and a clutch mate of the previous snakes in the photos of the Okeetees which are het for trans.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Trans Hypo Okeetee

This female is a pure locality corn snake from a wild caught corn snake from Jasper County near the Okeetee Hunt Club.

 

[red_dragon]

ehhh....

sorrie i dont understand anything from youre discussion, but i read a lot of times okeetee, well ive read a lot of describsions about what an okeetee is; an cornsnake found in an area around a huntclud or sometingg, a snake with a certain type of orange, and a cornsnake with the black, thick rounds around the circkles...
is dont know what an okeetee is antmore,.. can anyone explain....?

 

[ecreipeoj]

Locality vs. Locality with Okeetee "LOOK"

____________________________________________________
Joe,

You are talking to a Grayband locale purist so my answer to your questions is very simple:

1) If it is collected on the Hunt Club property, then it is a "pure Okeetee" and can be documented as such.

2) If it was collected across the street or 2 miles away then it isn't a pure Okeetee, it is in fact a Jasper County and can only be documented as such.

Both snakes could be from the same parents and could even be clutch mates but
that is really immaterial to this argument.

CAV
____________________________________________________

I am not sure that the grayband locale purist mentality can be applied the same to corns from Jasper County as they are applied to Gray Bands. I would think that a locality purist would have started other localities of corn snakes from Jasper County and other locality corn snakes. Do you have pure Miami Corn Snakes? Or pure, North Carolina Corns Snakes. If no, then why not if locality is the only thing that is important to you. There should be corns with other names from the area but there is only one. This road or that road , or this property or that property. In this case they would be called. This Property Okeetee, and That Road Okeetee, and Hunt Club Okeetee.

Corn Snakes from this area are prized because of the way they look, not because of the fact that they came from the Hunt Club. If no really nice corn snakes occurred in the area, you would not own a single one from the Hunt Club, because you would have no reason to. Otherwise, you would own many other locality corn snakes if that was your only reason for keeping corn snake in the first place. You have Okeetee Corn Snakes because they are gorgeous. The only reason the Okeetee Hunt Club is known in the corn snake world is because of the way some of the corns look from the area.

The statement that the snakes could be from the same parents and could even be clutch mates but that is really immaterial to this argument is the exact point of argument that separates our opinions.

You feel that the only determining factor to call a corn snake an Okeetee Corn Snake is the locality of capture. This can only be documented on what you tell me or someone else tells you and can be lost over time, or not be true to begin with. The only Okeetee Corn snakes which are prized from the Hunt Club are the ones with the “Okeetee Look”. Try to promote offspring from the Hunt Club, from ugly wild caught snakes the same way you promote the nice ones and your locality argument would hold more water. I do not think that you would have very much success trying to sell your definition of a “Pure Okeetee” Corn Snake if they were ugly. Without the “Okeetee Look” we would not be having this discussion. A Okeetee Corn is more than just the locality of capture, because without the “LOOK” too, it would not be of any interest to you or anybody else. Perhaps now, you can say that any corn captured on the Hunt Club interest you, but with out the “LOOK’ that started the legend, many years ago, you would never have had any inclination to collect locality corns in the area anymore than anywhere else.

I feel that the genetics of the snakes and there appearance is more important than the actual locality of capture. I do believe that a pure line of wild caught snakes from the area has a lot to be desired. Two clutch mates that look extremely nice and look like what we prize in an Okeetee Corn Snake are in fact the same and are both worthy of being called an Okeetee Corn Snake. The fact that they are one foot apart and one on the Hunt Club and the other on the adjoining property, does not make one better than the other and only the one on the Hunt Club Property worthy of being called a Pure Okeetee.

If clutch mates were caught on separate sides of the property line and one was ugly and caught on the Hunt Club property and the other had the Okeetee Look, but was not captured on the property, The one with the Okeetee look is more worthy of being called a Pure Okeetee, because it would be captured and perhaps kept as a pure wild caught line. The other is genetically the same, but would go on crawling on its way, because it is not what we want in an Okeetee Corn Snake.


Joe



_________________________________________________________________
How can you have the trademark black borders of an okeetee present if it is hypo? Think about it.

AggieTiff
_______________________________________________________________________

You can not have the trade mark black borders of an Okeetee present if it is a hypo, because that is exactly what a hypo is no more than if it was a amel which was pure Okeetee.. You can have an opaque area where the black is suppose to be. It is extremely possible or just as possible to have a recessive trait come from corn snakes collected on the Hunt Club Property or the near by area as any where else. A homozygous corn from the Hunt Club or surrounding area, would qualify as a Okeetee Corn Snake, no matter which definition we use. If a amel corn was collected on the Hunt Club, then it is an Okeetee, but just homozygous for amel. The idea that it is totally and absolutely impossible for a recessive gene to occur in the Okeetee Population is not reasonable. It is actually more likely that recessive genes will be found from the Hunt Club population, because so many are collected from there and inbred. Any recessive genes from the population, will be found if they exist.


Joe

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

thanks Joe

I don't see how it can be explained more clearly then that.
You put it into perfect perspective.
I think that is why there has been no further asrgument.
excellent post......again

 

[Dwight Good]

Re: Ohhh...way too deep!

What would you all do if I were to tell you that I have heard from a reliable source that, way back when captive bred corn snakes were not sold in the pet trade they were released in areas like the "Okeetee" hunt club or Jasper Co.?

That would really throw a monkey wrench in the whole "locality" arguement wouldn't it!

Well said Clint!! I thought I was the only one that has been around long enough to remember that thread!! For the newbies here is that post:


"I've been breeding corns since the mid to late 70s. Back in that time, a lot of the positive nature of raising and breeding snakes in captivity was for the express purpose of releasing the results of your successful breeding efforts. For the longest time, I actually felt it was somehow dirty to sell my baby snakes. So what do you think I did with most of them. I release them. From all localities and unknown sources, possibly even carrying various genetic types. This was the thing to do at that time. I have released corns in New Jersey, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina. The southern states got their batch of corn snakes mostly when my wife and I were driving south on vacations down to Florida. Now this is really going to crack you up. Guess where my releases took place in South Carolina? Coming down route 95, that exit ramp to Ridgeland is nearly irresistible [sic], taking the drive down route 17 to Hardeeville to catch 95 south again. Guess what's right along 17 in that area. My God! Okeetee Hunt Club! What a hell of an idea, releasing a bunch of corn snakes in an area that must be taking a toll from collectors year after year. I seem to recall doing this every year in September for several years in the late 70s to mid 80s. No telling how many corn snakes I released all total. It wasn't until *company name withheld* was born in 1985 that I found that more people were willing to buy the snakes I produced and I didn't have this surplus of babies I didn't know what to do with any longer.

Now, some will have real problems with this now, but at the time, that was what it was all about. I can't say whether it is now right or wrong, but it is just the way it is. And I know absolutely that I was not the only person doing this. Like I said, at that time, producing animals for release to the wild was the intended goal of most captive breeding of snakes.

Now you can see why I said earlier that it would not surprise me in the least if someone had wild caught Okeetee corns produce a snow corn."

Guess the locality argument is over now, eh? Any corn caught in Jasper County should be considered a generic normal. Okeetee is a look, not a locality IMHO.

Clint I'm glad you remembered that thread, I thought I was the only one.

 

[Clint Boyer]

A new twist.........

I just thought I'd add that tidbit to see if this thread could get any more complicated!

We all have our opinions but this is a fact that can't really be ignored. It means that a locality corn just may not be "pure".
The genes that are cropping up from wild caught snakes may have originated somewhere else.

Food for thought.

 

[CAV]

To Serp and Joe or whomever even cares at this point:

The problem with this post is that no one bothered to read what was actually being said. Everyone has become embroiled in the "it is an Okeetee because I said so" or "CAV's definition is that only Hunt Club stock is an Okeetee". Again, I will explain my position.

The Bottomline:
I believed then and I believe now that choosing to sell those animals as "pure" is flat-out deceptive. Can you provide *any* type of documentation that they are in fact "pure"? These are not my words, but Joe's.....

So I will state it again: "pure" is the problem, not "okeetee". If you can offer me any kind of "proof" that they are "pure" I will openly state in this forum that I was absolutely wrong.

"You feel that the only determining factor to call a corn snake an Okeetee Corn Snake is the locality of capture."

No, I believe in truth in advertising. Show me a single post where I said that the only determining factor is locality. You can't. If you take the time to read the posts (without an emotional interpretation) and you will find that I actually said:

I'm not looking to split hairs, but why is there a tendency to keep referring to the stock as "Pure Okeetee"? (I don't want to turn this into a "locale" vs. "the look" argument.) There are two accepted definitions that the industry uses to label a particular animal as an Okeetee. It is either 1) caught on the Hunt Club grounds, or 2) it is brightly colored with broad, bold, black outlines. With that in mind, if these "pure Okeetees" aren't from the Hunt Club and don't have broad, bold, black outlines because it is Hypo, why isn't it a normal corn snake?

(I will clarify some confusion: I used the word "normal" here to mean "standard" and not "a morph" of cornsnake)

I do not believe, nor have I ever stated, that the locality definition is the only definition. I haven't once advocated a "standardized method" for measuring an "okeetee". The width of the band, or the shade of the orange, or the "look" of the "look" was never the point. The only reason I posted on this thread in the first place is that I look at the pics and the descriptions of your "pure okeetees" and believe that there is absolutely no justification for you to call them "pure". The whole discussion started because you have repeatedly thrown around the words "pure Okeetee". If you had used "okeetee" to describe them, then I never would have felt a need to post on this topic.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS SIMPLY MY OPINION

 

[Dwight Good]

Re: A new twist.........

I just thought I'd add that tidbit to see if this thread could get any more complicated!

We all have our opinions but this is a fact that can't really be ignored. It means that a locality corn just may not be "pure".
The genes that are cropping up from wild caught snakes may have originated somewhere else.

Food for thought.

Well said Clint. It's a shame that some people can get so bent out of shape over the whole Okeetee issue. Fact is, that locality is certainly corrupted with non locale corn genes. Its definitely not a problem for the snakes, who will thrive regardless. But for the locality buff its probably a severe blow to the ego. In addition to the big breeder releasing many non locale corns in the Okeetee area, there have also been those people looking to scam the naive. Kinda like the greyband situation, where a local guy buys a bunch of captive bred greybands and then hits the alterna hot spots when all the out of staters are there herping. On the slow nights when everyone is desperate to catch something and make their trip worthwhile, these guys pull their scam. They offer greybands for sale that they supposedly 'just picked up off the road' for a decent price. Sometimes the poor herping guys that have come up empty will fork out cash just so they can take home a trophy. Unfortunately the same thing happens in Okeetee!

I realize my opinion has little merit here, but to me Okeetee will always be a 'look' not a locality.

 

[Serpwidgets]

CAV, Thanks for clarifying that... it's easy for threads to get off track, and arguments from "the other side" to be lumped together and then attributed to the wrong individual.

I could see this being a different discussion (and me probably being on a different side) if these were being sold for thousands of dollars (like Ball Pythons) as hets or possible hets for some trait. But IMO the big deal behind these isn't so much whether or not they're "pure Okeetees" but whether or not it's a new (and so far apparently different-looking) genetic form of Hypomelanism.

To clarify my side here, you said, and just reiterated as part of your position:

With that in mind, if these "pure Okeetees" aren't from the Hunt Club and don't have broad, bold, black outlines because it is Hypo, why isn't it a normal corn snake?

And I still take issue with that.

these "pure Okeetees" aren't from the Hunt Club

Joe says they are. He hasn't said "specifically within the 55,000 acres," and you have implied you are not taking issue with whether or not something from the adjoining areas are "Okeetees." So if you accept "the adjoining area" then on what grounds do you think his are disqualified? (What exactly makes them "Okeetees" but "less than pure?")

and don't have broad, bold, black outlines because it is Hypo

Hypo Okeetees, by either definition, would not be expected to have broad, bold black outlines. Assume you personally collected 1.1 typical-looking corns on the Hunt Club grounds, and found that they were carrying a new mutant when they produced hypos in the F1. Based on the hypos you've seen to date, would you expect those hypos to have the same thick black outlines?

-----

If you agree with the above, I still don't get why you think his aren't "up to snuff." You say "documentation" but the only documentation that comes with any "pure Okeetees" that are for sale is a verbal story from the seller. I don't see why his story is any less valid than anyone else's.

The only reason I posted on this thread in the first place is that I look at the pics and the descriptions of your "pure okeetees" and believe that there is absolutely no justification for you to call them "pure".

What level of "proof" (or justification) do you think is necessary in order to be able to attach the word "pure" to them? As far as I can tell, the story involved an original collector who had nothing to gain by lying about their origins, and nobody else in the whole chain of the story had anything to gain by saying that. (Except Joe. I don't mean to say you are calling him a liar. But I will say that the only reasonable interpretation I can get from it is that you believe he's lying.)

Also, say you personally go to the Hunt Club and catch some WCs and breed them. When you sell those offspring (presumably as "pure Okeetee") would you provide documentation to your buyers? If so, in what form? And why should anyone (who doesn't personally know you) accept your documentation as "proof?"

Not to say "you shouldn't be believed" but "why should you be believed more than anyone else?"

Would you think they were deceptive to sell the offspring they produce with your F1s as "pure Okeetee?" After all, they don't have "documentation" either, only their faith in you to be honest. And if not, then at what point would it become "deceptive" to do so?

-----

I still see this as a matter of you having a narrower definition of things. Can you explain what exact type of proof or documentation you would expect from anything labeled as "pure okeetee?" And can you give an example of who has such proof, and supplies it with the corns they sell?

 

[ecreipeoj]

Are we having fun yet?

Are we having fun yet!? I hope we all realize that we are just stating our opinions here and having a friendly, although heated debate. I find the topic and differences of opinion very interesting and I am not upset at anybody in anyway. We are all entitled to have an opinion of what an Okeetee Corn Snake is. It seems our main differences of opinion come from what we should call a Pure Okeetee, Wild Caught Okeetee, Jasper County Corn Snake or snakes with only the Okeetee “Look” and how we use these labels when the animals are sold. I guess it is up to each individual to choose which point of view they wish to except and up to the potential Okeetee customer which corn snakes the want to buy and from whom.

I have become more interested in the legend of the Okeetee Corn Snake more now than I have ever been. Since, I live in CA and not SC, I may never go to the Hunt Club. I sure wish I had the opportunity to collect in the area, because the only snakes around here are Great Basin Gophers, Rattle Snakes, Yellow Bellied Racers and Black and Yellow Garter Snakes. We do have a few Rubber Boas which are interesting, but CA law prohibits us from doing much with them.

I am sure that I can find maps of the Hunt Club property. Does anybody out there wish to let some of us in on some of the locations many of the Okeetees are captured that you would consider Okeetees and sell as “Pure” Okeetees? I have heard of roads like Haphazard Rd. Are there many more locations that are hot spots? I am also interested in finding a copy of Carl Kanffeld’s 1957 Book that everybody talks about and reading it for my self. It is apparently titled “Snakes & Snake Hunting“ Photo copies would be fine or scanned copies of the pages sent via email or posted referring to the corns snakes of legend would be even better. I am very curious to see what is actually written and how the name of Okeetee got attached to the Corn Snakes in the area or from the Hunt Club and how much has just been opinions which have grown over time or how much is fact about what he said about the corn snakes in the area. Did Carl Kanffeld actually call the corn snakes he caught on the Hunt Club, Okeetee Corn Snakes? Did he find any other corn snakes in the area not on the Hunt Club Property that looked the same? I am sure that we could all come up with questions which we may be able to answer. I hope that the Okeetee Legend has more to it that just opinions that have grown over time.

 

[Dwight Good]

A trip to Okeetee

Joe,
Although this may not be what you were looking for, here is a 'sort of' virtual tour of Okeetee:

Okeetee herping trip by Mike Pingleton

Enjoy!

Dwight Good

 

[Serpwidgets]

ISBN# 0894649310

It's available at amazon.com:

Carl Kauffeld - Snakes & Snake Hunting

 

[CAV]

NOW WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME SHEET OF MUSIC!

What documents them as "pure"? Beats me. That is a different topic that I don't even want to touch at this point!

Personally, I would be more inclined to accept detailed and accurate field notes with collection data as opposed to a second or third hand verbal assurance, but even that is not quantifiable. I wouldn't sell them as "pure" unless I had "proof". I agree that monetarily, a $30 corn isn't a big deal compared to an exotic Ball or Boa, but ethically, I can say that price isn't a variable. IMO, this topic is one of those "bigger than all of us" industry issues.

 

[Chip]

I have been pitched one too many softballs!

I'll make this post brief, instead of going on a Dennis Miller-worthy rant. I am a keeper/hunter/breeder of Okeetees. Locality, that is. An average male Okeetee is worth ten times more to me than a drop-dead gorgeous female Jasper. Why? It's SOOOO hard to collect the club, and I advertise locale, not look. I have argued with many on these boards and Faunas. I had almost decided I'd just save it for folks I was talking to in person, but CAV got my Irish up! Okeetees come from the hunt club, if they are to be called locality. I have turned down a dozen beautiful Jasper County corns, because they would (at least in my mind) "corrupt" my lines.
Have I personally caught every snake I own? No. But Davie Jones, in Ridgeland and Jim Pervier, in Switzerland, good men both, caught each that I didn't. And they are so much more purists and Hell-bent on which side of the road they were on than me, it's scary! Want road names, I can give you a dozen. Locality verification, no problem. The issue is; I wasn't filmed catching each snake, and even if I were, it could have been planted. Anyone could call me a liar, just as anyone could claim their normal was locality. But I know where my animals came from, I go there every year (under the guise of taking my girlfriend to Hilton Head for spring vacation ) and WILL NOT buy non-locality to cross into my lines. This is different to me than buying a Kathy Love Okeetee. Arbreptiles.com has a link to a few of my snakes (I really need to send him new photos, sorry) and http://faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25124&highlight=Okeetee this is a good link on the locality arguement.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Okeetee name kidnapped?

Hi Chip,
I have been waiting for you to respond. I totally respect field collectors who record exact localities of the capture of snakes they use as breeders. I have used the word “Pure” and attached it to Okeetee Corn Snakes only because I feel that offspring from wild caught snakes are of a pure line. The locality of capture of your corn snakes on the Okeetee Hunt Club in Jasper County is something that I could never dispute. You have first hand knowledge of their capture locality and that is the most reliable form of testimony that I would need to except.

Please explain to me why the name of the corn snakes you collect on the Hunt Club are Okeetee Corn Snakes and the wild caught ones outside the Hunt Club are Jasper County Corns. Is this something that you have decided is correct? Myself and many others do not agree with it. I mean wild caught ones on the wrong side of the road. I feel like locality collectors are trying to kidnapping the Okeetee name, when all they are pushing is the locality of capture. Why is it so hard to except that corn snakes in and around the Hunt Club are the same genetically and have the same look as corns collected on the Hunt Club and worthy of the Okeetee name. Your Corn Snakes are locality collected on the Okeetee Hunt Club property. Who arbitrarily decided that only the corn snakes collected on the Hunt Club property are Okeetees and the ones outside of the Hunt Club are Jasper County Corns. I realize that the Hunt Club is called the Okeetee Hunt Club. Corn Snakes from the area had to be called something and the Okeetee Hunt Club is apparently right in the middle of the area which they occur. It makes perfect since to me to call the corn snakes in the area Okeetee Corn Snakes, but to say that the Property lines of the Okeetee Hunt Club are the only location that these magnificent animals crawl seems beyond extreme.

CAV would claim that ten generations of corn snakes that have never left the Hunt Club could have a clutch of eggs, and they are not Okeetees until someone picks them up on an excepted road. An identical twin from this same clutch as the one captured in an expectable location in not an Okeetee unless it is captured. If this twin is collected on the wrong side of a road it is a Jasper County Corn Snake. I am sorry, but that is not expectable to me and I do not believe most people would except it either. They are the same Corn Snake in every conceivable genetic way. Why is the locality of capture of your snakes which occurred on the Hunt Club, Okeetee Corns and the ones on the wrong side of the road Jasper County Corns? I do not see why the corns collected on the Hunt Club are deserving of the Okeetee name and the ones genetically the same not. The locality of capture of your snake, I would never consider disputing. I dispute the kidnapping of the Okeetee name of legend.

 

[Chip]

To be honest,

I've never had the quandry of seeing a live corn on the wrong side of the road! If it were pretty enough, I'll state for the record I'd chase it back to the property and catch it! But that's very unlikely to ever happen. You basically road-cruise at night and "turn" during the day, at both times you are working pretty deep into the Okeetee club property. It's hard enough to find many when you are looking for them, but to see one right before you pull in to the club would be a stretch. As I stated earlier, I have seen some gorgeous animals caught many many miles from Okeetee, that would no doubt add desirable traits to my lines.

But the only way you can claim locality is to be strict about it. I started with 2.2 locality snakes (from a locality Nazi, no less) and reread "the Keeper and the Kept". I decided that since I live close enough to hunt myself and have connections to good hunters who know the club like I know my backyard, I'd keep them that way. Then after my first unsuccesful hunt, complete with mosquito bites, a rattlesnake scare, and Mr. Jones getting arrested for tresspassing (again); I realized the difficulty of getting new blood from the club! Will continue my ramblings later, I have a visitor. Did anyone check the fauna link?