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A stargazer's story...

Noe..gr

Noe..gr

EY TAPAZEIN
Back in 2006 when I bought my first pair of sunkisseds,never thought I'd have to deal with such things in the future...
This is my story....
I found some beautiful sunkisseds from Marc Vervest and took them in a heartbeat!
Rised them up for a couple of years and bred them together,and the male with my female caramel diffused.I have been dreaming producing a diffused honey since I saw the first honeys from CC Corns..
In 2008 I got a clutch of sunkisseds and bred the F1 for my dream project.So far so good,all babies were 100% ok.Sold all the sunkisseds to the local market and some males het.diffused honey and kept 5.7 of those back.Sometime then (if I remember correctly) stargazing issue was made public by Dr.Connie Hurley.I was terrified at the moment and emailed Marc to ask if he was aware of that or he had seen any in his line of sunkisseds since I knew he was breeding and outcrossing them for a few years.His answer was completely negative and I was calm down.
This year I bred again my original pair of sunkisseds (are hatching at the moment) and of course the hets.diffused,honeys.
7 clutches plus some doubles,more than 100 eggs so far.First 4 have hatched the last few days.
All babies looked good.But I don't tend to examine/bug them very much at least until they have their first shed.
And then this... :(
Few days ago while cleaning I noticed a caramel from the second clutch having its head in an ackward position.
I took it out and tried to get a better look.It seemed to move ok,but a little slower(?).Then I teased it a little and it moved a bit like the gazers I have seen in the videos posted.Just not that extreme/fast.I even flipped it a little and it seemed to not being very able to control its body and come to the right position.
That's it! I got a stargazer!
In my mind there are only 2 possibilities.
Either mr.Vervest wasn't "lucky" like me to produce a stargazer all those years he is breeding animals from that line or he did and just didn't care about it,like many others don't care.For some people the profit is what counts.Good for them.Not me.
Only he knows that answer,but it's up to us whether we'll believe him or not.
To tell you the truth,I don't care what is the truth.I face only the facts and deal with them.
For me stargazing is not something I can just ignore.Since it has been proven recessive it can multiply fast.It already has!
I ask myself if I'd like to produce or help produce a stargazer.Well,I have one,don't like seeing it like that and won't help producing more in any way.
I feel responsible for their lives and their prosperity and for my position in the hobby/love.It will take me a few years but I'll clear my line.No matter what.
That is what I feel like to do,although I understand it's always in the eye of the beholder....

I want to thank everyboby I have talked for their support and good thoughts.No need to mention,they know who they are.

Makis
 
Noe..gr said:
First 4 have hatched the last few days.
All babies looked good.But I don't tend to examine/bug them very much at least until they have their first shed.
And then this... :(
Few days ago while cleaning I noticed a caramel from the second clutch having its head in an ackward position.
I took it out and tried to get a better look.It seemed to move ok,but a little slower(?).Then I teased it a little and it moved a bit like the gazers I have seen in the videos posted.Just not that extreme/fast.I even flipped it a little and it seemed to not being very able to control its body and come to the right position.
That's it! I got a stargazer!
Click to expand...

Let me get this straight....You have had 4 clutches hatch and only ONE animal that looks like a star gazer and you are claiming you definitely have stargazing in your line?

There are other neurological problems as well as other problems that are all together different that can occur and cause problems. If you are basing your comments on ONE animal....you may want to wait and see what the other 3 clutches hold before making accusations.
 
I might be wrong here, but I think that if both parents are het for stargazing, then roughly 25% of these hatchlings should show the trait....
 
starsevol said:
I might be wrong here, but I think that if both parents are het for stargazing, then roughly 25% of these hatchlings should show the trait....
Click to expand...

You are correct as stargazer is a simple recessive gene and acts like any other simple recessive.
 
The only thing you don't know is that there have been produced other gazers from the same line from another breeder in the Netherlands.
And I haven't inspected the other 11 babies from the same clutch.More info will be added asap.
And if I'm not wrong roughly 25% doesn't mean I'll get definitelly 3 gazers in those 12 babies.
 
Noe..gr said:
And I haven't inspected the other 11 babies from the same clutch.More info will be added asap.
And if I'm not wrong roughly 25% doesn't mean I'll get definitelly 3 gazers in those 12 babies.
Click to expand...


Looking forward to the information. And yes, odds would dictate 3 out of 12 but the actual hatching may indicate otherwise. I've missed 1 in 4 in clutches of 20+!
 
Based to the records I keep and what has been produced so far,I believe the gene was passed to the specific 1.1 het.honey,bloods that produced the mentioned clutch and stargazer,by the male sunkissed (which was het.stargazer) through the 50% het. possibility which in this case proved definite.
More may be produced in the other 3 clutches or none if the hets combine or not.
My intention is not to accuse Marc,althought if he was aware of that my opinion is that he should have inform me at any time.
My post is mostly informative about how easy is to produce a stargazer.
Peoples choices are peoples choices.

Jeff,or anyone else working with sunkisseds like me,if you had seen a stargazer in your line of sunkisseds wouldn't you think your costumers would deserve to know?
 
Last edited:
Noe..gr said:
Jeff,or anyone else working with sunkisseds like me,if you had seen a stargazer in your line of sunkisseds wouldn't you think your costumers would deserve to know?
Click to expand...

I do think they would want to know and if you've seen my adult list you will see that all sunkissed hets or homozygous animals have some sort of status on stargazer...unknown, known, or not suspected.
 
I'm having a hard time believing Marc would have knowingly sold an animal with the stargazing gene without informing you...

hopefully for you (and of course for your animals!) it's not a stargazer but some other neurological problem! Is that still possible or are you sure about it?
 
I don't know if he was aware or not.When he was asked he said "no way".Only he knows the truth.
As I have said,that is not my problem right now.
Based to the facts I have collected so far I'm fairly positive.
All other infos will come from my test breedings that will be done in the following years to clean my line.
 
I do think they would want to know and if you've seen my adult list you will see that all sunkissed hets or homozygous animals have some sort of status on stargazer...unknown, known, or not suspected.
Click to expand...

Good for you and your costumers Jeff! I like that!
 
Noe..gr said:
I don't know if he was aware or not.When he was asked he said "no way".Only he knows the truth.
Click to expand...
I can tell you the truth ; I have never had/seen a stargazer in my collection or hatchlings !! . If I had , I would have told you , especially when you asked me for . I don't keep records to where and who all my animals go , so if had seen one ( which is not to this moment) , I would have said and quit all the Sunkissed projects I doubt about .Not my new US lines . If I had once a het male , it could be spread , without knowing it .I should be unfair to spread the gazergene . I would not even try to test it , I would just quit it .It is strange it goes only to one person here .
I don't feel to say sorry , because you can't apologize for what you don't (didn't) know . I hope you understand this .
 
mvervest said:
I can tell you the truth ; I have never had/seen a stargazer in my collection or hatchlings !! . If I had , I would have told you , especially when you asked me for . I don't keep records to where and who all my animals go , so if had seen one ( which is not to this moment) , I would have said and quit all the Sunkissed projects I doubt about .Not my new US lines . If I had once a het male , it could be spread , without knowing it .I should be unfair to spread the gazergene . I would not even try to test it , I would just quit it .It is strange it goes only to one person here .
I don't feel to say sorry , because you can't apologize for what you don't (didn't) know . I hope you understand this .
Click to expand...

The second person is here Marc,
After we discover homo Stargazer, I call you the same week to let you know.
And just for let you knowing. So that you could do the same like we did. Informed the customers.
We also asked if you have more from that line....
You know also a few people who have Sunkissed from that same line......

It's a Male from 2002 or 2003
till so far we breed this year 10 homo SG with 3 cluches to .
We informed all the people who have corns from that line. And take them back. We will never sell untested Sunkissed anymore.
I realy hope that people understand that! Before it's too late.
We have on this moment 0.0.10 Homo SG 2010
2.3 het SG 2008 and 1.0 het SG 2002 or 2003


Johan
 
I think I would wait until you have checked the other babies before saying for sure your boy is making stargazers. If it is only one baby it could be something else.
 
specialcorns johan said:
The second person is here Marc,
After we discover homo Stargazer, I call you the same week to let you know.
And just for let you knowing. So that you could do the same like we did. Informed the customers.
Johan
Click to expand...
I thanked for that , but as I mentioned I don't keep records from what animal goes to what person . I even don't know if I have an animal left from that line , I quit for some years the Sunkissed because of low interest and started again with new male / female , I don't know . What I know is that I'm breeding now for several years with hets Sunkissedcaramel , het Sunkissedice , hets Sunkissedlavender and never saw a SG-er on all hatchlings , never saw some high ends too , but that's another story of Murphy and the genes when breeding hets together .
 
WingedSweetheart said:
I think I would wait until you have checked the other babies before saying for sure your boy is making stargazers. If it is only one baby it could be something else.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to attack you,but I can't understand what the number of the stargazer babies in that clutch has to do with the situation.If I had got 3 or more that would have been more of a proof?
It's the number of the facts and the symptoms of the baby all together that lead me to this conclusion.
More tests will be done to sort things out in the following years.
 
Noe..gr said:
I'm not trying to attack you,but I can't understand what the number of the stargazer babies in that clutch has to do with the situation.If I had got 3 or more that would have been more of a proof?
It's the number of the facts and the symptoms of the baby all together that lead me to this conclusion.
More tests will be done to sort things out in the following years.
Click to expand...

I think it's because there are other things that look like stargazer, that aren't stargazer. It looks the same but it is not.
Statistically 25% of hatchlings out of 2 het parents should show the trait.
Just because one single baby appears to have stargazer, that does not mean that that one baby actually has stargazer.
But since stargazer is an inherited trait, more babies should show it.
 
starsevol said:
I think it's because there are other things that look like stargazer, that aren't stargazer. It looks the same but it is not.
Statistically 25% of hatchlings out of 2 het parents should show the trait.
Just because one single baby appears to have stargazer, that does not mean that that one baby actually has stargazer.
But since stargazer is an inherited trait, more babies should show it.
Click to expand...

I thought that was answered before.
Just because only one was produced that doesn't mean it is not stargazer involved,either.
I'd consider myself and Johan two of the most unlucky persons on earth if we both managed to produce babies that have similar symptoms with stargazing (but are not) from the same line of sunkisseds (in which stargazing was originally discovered).
I'm just saying it's a veery loong shot... :shrugs:
 
Noe..gr said:
I thought that was answered before.
Just because only one was produced that doesn't mean it is not stargazer involved,either.
I'd consider myself and Johan two of the most unlucky persons on earth if we both managed to produce babies that have similar symptoms with stargazing (but are not) from the same line of sunkisseds (in which stargazing was originally discovered).
I'm just saying it's a veery loong shot... :shrugs:
Click to expand...

Oh I understand, and I hope your mystery is solved soon.

I am just saying, just because a person is crying does not mean they are sad.
They could be really happy.
Or they could be chopping onions.

And just because a baby looks stargazer, does not mean that it definately is...
 
The future will learn us that.
My opinion is not who have SG, but we have to be honest when wel sell specialy Sunkissed and Okeetee lines.

We never sell untested line's anymore (Okeetee and Sunkissed)
Or something what Jeff do, that are the only ways to not spread the SG

from the line I have there are from 2002 ore 2003 100+ maby 1000+ poss het SG corns sold:angry01:
Before we know that gene is in all the Morphs. and that make me sick.

Johan
 
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