Ambient Air vs Belly Heat

[captainjack0000]

I moved the discussion here to avoid totally hijacking the other thread.

I think we're all in agreement that the most important thing is the temperature of the snake. We only disagree on what is important on how to achieve that end.

The laws of thermodynamics say that systems in contact will reach equilibrium. That is a hot spoon in cold coffee will warm the coffee some and cool the spoon some. Heat exchange between objects in contact is conduction, and with fluids, convection (hot air rises, cold water sinks, etc).

The same holds true for snakes, heating pads, and air. My snake most certainly is in the air, as there is an envelope of air that covers about 3/4 of him. The remaining 1/4 makes contact with the substrate, which is heated by the plexiglass, which is heated by the UTH.

I am not familiar with exactly how efficient there is heat exchange between snake and substrate or snake and air. But I do know that at some point the air temperature could be so cold that no amount of heat (via conduction) from the UTH will be enough to heat the snake to proper living temperatures.

I also know the UTH probably does heat some of the air directly above the pad (pad to glass to substrate to air) but this also moves away via convection rather quickly. This is why people say heating pads don't heat the air. Technically they do, but only marginally, as that warm air diffuses throughout the room quickly.

Does this mean you need a heat lamp? I say no. A UTH will be fine, provided that the ambient air temps aren't drastically cold. Maybe 60F is fine, but what about 50F, 40F, or even 30F?

I bet you could plug in a heating pad that reached 85F and stick it in the freezer (85F in the freezer that is), and have your snake on the pad and it wouldn't do too well. Please nobody actually try this.

Of course the opposite is true. A snake sitting on a block of ice in the middle of summer is going to be pretty cold.


Ambient air temps are not

as

important, but I still feel important enough.

I wouldn't want somebody living in the northern latitudes going away for the winter, turning all of the heat off in their house, and thinking a UTH will be fine. If you keep your ambient air temps within what I think is the comfortable range of a human, then the only extra heat necessary would be the UTH.

Plus, think about it in terms of the space for you snake. A really cold tank might have a spot warm big enough for your snake, but you're confining it to only that warm patch if the remaining part of the tank's temp is well below what is safe for the animal. I might have a whole house, but if the only part of it that warm enough not to induce hypothermia in a few minutes is the walk-in closet, then the rest of my house is a waste.

 

[Shiari]

The ambient air temperature in your *house*.

These snakes are found out, active, at night. Spring/summer/autumn here in California the average temperature at night is 49 to 58 degrees. We have snakes that can be found out at night, warming themselves on the roads and rocks before wandering around in search of food. When the temps get lower than that, they go and brumate because the day time temps are not warm enough to make up for the night time temps. Those would be the times the temps are in the low 40s, or lower.

It would be foolish if one lived in someplace like alaska to leave a *mammal* in a house in winter with the heat turned off. Or Oregon in the middle of winter. The average temperature of most houses is 65 to 72. My bedroom is colder than the rest of the house, because that's also my brumation room. It's about 60 in there because I leave the windows open. The few snakes that live there year-round have large UTH... and I see them on all sides of their tanks. They're certainly not huddling miserable over the UTH.

 

[Soulwind]

captainjack,

I don't think any of us here have ever said that Ambient Air Temps don't matter at all.

We've always said (at least in every thread I've read through) that Ambient Air Temps don't matter as much as belly heat. That corns prefer belly heat as the best way to regulate thier temps and that UTH's are preferred over Heat Lamps.

Again, with the caveat that we're talking about normal, comfortable, levels of ambient temps (mid 60's up to mid 70's). Obviously, if for some reason, you're living in a house that gets down into the 50's or below, then you'll need to heat up the ambient temps too.

Reasons for belly heat and UTH over basking/heat lamps (for corns -- other reptiles are different, you WANT basking lamps for say a bearded dragon)

Corns don't bask (much -- if at all).

They are nocturnal species and don't like bright lights.

Belly heat supports thier digestion in a more efficient manner.

Heat Lamps dry out the air in the tank - a desert species might appreciate this,
but corns prefer temperate climate level humidity.

 

[BugAyedBradshaw]

I moved the discussion here to avoid totally hijacking the other thread.

Hijack away my friend! lol

 

[captainjack0000]

I'm not trying to pick on anybody particular, and I may confuse people from different forums (e.g. I've seen the belly argument put forward for BPs, and again the same thing applies. Yeah you need belly heat, but ambient air temp has to be reasonable too), but here are a couple of statements.

I'm happy that Corns can thrive without the ambient air being heated.

My point was the air does need to be heated, from central heat in your home, not a heat lamp.

air temps are a red herring as the snake isn't up there!

Red herring in a sense, because a stick on thermometer won't give you the temp of the glass on the floor, plus they suck....but air temps again do matter at least some.

I think we're all in agreement.

 

[captainjack0000]

Belly heat supports thier digestion in a more efficient manner.

I not disagree with this, but does anybody have a study that shows this, or is this just from the collective knowledge of hundreds of people keeping snakes for decades?

 

[captainjack0000]

I would also think but don't know for sure that you would want pretty steady temperatures. You don't want ambient air house temps dropping to the 50s at night and back up to the 80s during the day.

Can anybody share more about this...highly variable temps?

It might happen that way in the wild, but my snakes don't live in the wild.

Somebody else said this and I liked it. I don't want my snakes to survive, I want them to thrive.

 

[Shiari]

Just an anecdote, but I have one tank with the UTH stuck on the side (came that way when I got it) and one on the bottom, forming an L shape. Both are regulated though the side one tends to run hotter and they form a nice pocket of warmer ambient area. However, after a large meal she will have her belly *plastered* to the side-attached UTH and not move for a couple days.

 

[BugAyedBradshaw]

My point was the air does need to be heated, from central heat in your home, not a heat lamp.......I think we're all in agreement.

I think you're right. I think many of us, if not most of us, assume that the air temp in one's house is kept at a reasonable temperature. But for some, that assumption can't be made.

I love to open my windows at night, but if I do that, I have to be careful that the air in the snake's room doesn't fluctuate too much.

 

[BugAyedBradshaw]

It might happen that way in the wild, but my snakes don't live in the wild.

Somebody else said this and I liked it. I don't want my snakes to survive, I want them to thrive.

Well said

 

[the_edsta]

I would also think but don't know for sure that you would want pretty steady temperatures. You don't want ambient air house temps dropping to the 50s at night and back up to the 80s during the day.

Can anybody share more about this...highly variable temps?

It might happen that way in the wild, but my snakes don't live in the wild.

Somebody else said this and I liked it. I don't want my snakes to survive, I want them to thrive.

I like this notion, but at the same time, there are some elements of nature that make sense when carried over. I'm not saying snakes have a circadian rhythm per se, as I have zero research to support that, but as they are often crepuscular, I'm sure it does matter to them. For this reason, having temperatures change with lighting makes sense. For example, my snake room is lit for 12 hours per day, and I find that the thermostat causes ambient temps to reach a full 82 during the light hours and closer to 78 during the evening (both because of the warming effects of the sun AND the heat diffused into the air by artificial lights).

Also, in terms of UTH vs. ambient, I always assumed the argument for UTH was simply because of the ease with which it provides a gradient for thermoregulation. If it weren't for that, I'd imagine more people would rely on ambient temps exclusively.

 

[captainjack0000]

having temperatures change with lighting makes sense

It does to me too, but a small change of 10 degrees (say from 85F to 75F and back) probably isn't bad. I was thinking more like a roller coaster. 85F to maybe 55F and back.

I think you're right. I think many of us, if not most of us, assume that the air temp in one's house is kept at a reasonable temperature. But for some, that assumption can't be made.

One would hope the temperature is normal, but not always. I overheard a customer a few weeks complaining their scorpion had died even though they did what the pet store was doing. They had not provided any heat for the animal and was mad it had died.

Well the pet store doesn't provide heat either because the whole freaking store is 85F (i.e. ambient air temp). After the customer had left, the store employee reminded me that the previous night had been colder than usual for us down here in Florida, and while people can put on blankets, those aren't going to help ectotherms. They were almost positive the customer had just kept the scorpion at room temp and that it had died sometime in the night because it was too cold. The stores scorpions were thriving just fine at their 85F temps.

I don't know anything about scorpions (so maybe something else killed it ), but my point is people who think ambient air temps don't matter may end up hurting their animals.

 

[bitsy]

They were almost positive the customer had just kept the scorpion at room temp and that it had died sometime in the night because it was too cold. The stores scorpions were thriving just fine at their 85F temps.

I don't know anything about scorpions (so maybe something else killed it ), but my point is people who think ambient air temps don't matter may end up hurting their animals.

In that example, the animal wasn't provided with heating. Pretty simple. Nothing to do with whether ambient heat is relevent to a belly-heated enclosure, which was the original discussion. I'd never recommend keeping Corns at ambient temps only - even in warmer climates, nights can still get too cold.

With Corns, if there's belly heat at an appropriate level, then I still think that ambient temp isn't relevant. However cold a room gets, if the UTH is on a thermostat then the Corn will always have access to an area of floor where it can be at the correct temp. I'm not sure I quite grasp why, in your first post's example, a Corn sitting on a floor surface heated to 85 by a UTH, wouldn't experience a temp of 85.

I'd certainly never recommend keeping a Corn at ambient temps only, regardless of where in the world they are.

I also still think that if there was an issue with belly heat only for Corns, then we'd have known about it long ago and my 24 year old would have been dead many times over. Even if it was just a matter of temps being "maintenance" rather than "ideal" this would still stress a Corn over a longer period. I would have expected to see some kind of impact like shortened lifespan or long-term digestive/feeding issues. Are there any examples of Corns who have been harmed by properly regulated belly heat only?

 

[captainjack0000]

I'm not sure I quite grasp why, in your first post's example, a Corn sitting on a floor surface heated to 85 by a UTH, wouldn't experience a temp of 85.

Well it would have to do with the thermal conductive properties of the snake, and of course the fact that heat from an 85F pad would dissipate into the air from any part of the pad not covered by the snake.

Think of the reverse, such as a fireman's heat suit. Those things are rather thin and lightweight, at least to me when you consider the temperatures they can handle. So if I have a fireman's heat glove and stick it into a 500F house that is on fire, the inside of the glove certainly isn't going to be 500F. So in a very small amount of space the temperature decreases from 500F to maybe 100F. But those fabrics are designed to not transfer heat very well. They're insualted.

I am guessing a corn snake is not insulated very well. So while the belly side might be 85F, the remaining 3 sides might be well below 85F, like an inside out firemans glove. I really don't know at what point it matters. The rate of heat being transferred from an 85F pad through the snake to the air will decrease the warmer the air around the snake is. So if the ambient air is 85F, then there is no heat loss as far as the snake is concerned. (he is 85F on all 4 sides) If the ambient air gets over the temp of the UTH, then its like throwing hot water into boiling water.

Are there any examples of Corns who have been harmed by properly regulated belly heat only?

I don't know. I bet anybody who doesn't keep their house warm enough doesn't take the time to share their snake mishaps either. They probably won't be reading this forum either....

Is there any evidence of corns who have been harmed by properly regulated ambient air temps only?

The operative words here are properly regulated. You could argue that if there were any problems, then they were not properly regulated.

 

[captainjack0000]

For what it is worth, I think we've decided that in order for the ambient temps to be of concern, they would have to be well below what most people would find comfortable. So in a sense my argument is moot.

I mean we're talking about the heat loss over the height of a snake...which is maybe 1.5 inches for corns? It would be higher for thicker snakes.

But then again, what is the temperature difference from one side of your hand to the other when you put it over an electric stove. Not exactly the best example because your hand generates its own heat, but the point is about the same.

 

[spyderk]

I have wondered about this too. I also read something online, don't remember where, but it was in regard to ball pythons. It said something like heat can be trapped under their body, creating an even hotter spot than what the UTH is set at. Is there any truth to this?

 

[Chip]

If it were practical, I would heat all of my reptiles with radiant heat panels. Since it's not, my preference is to keep a hotter than recommended hot spot, in roomy, well-ventilated enclosures with deep substrate and lots of hides. I still prefer belly to back heat, unlike most colubrid keepers I guess. The snakes learn the gradient in no time and go flatten out on the heat after a meal. Building up a collection slowly, I built, bought (and still use) all kinds of racks from over the years. Freedom Breeder BP racks are my favorite for corns, but they all can work. No room I put snake rack in will ever be much below 65 degrees, so I get happy burning holes in tubs. The Freedom Breeders with the open grate tops negate even having to do that. I offer them hotter than they need, grading to cooler than they'd like, and let them pick the spot. I started a regrettable thread about running one with a 145 degree hotspot this summer if you want to dig for it. I don't regret trying it, I knew no harm would come to the animals, I just found few people supportive... anyway, there are a lot of ways to heat a corn snake enclosure. :spinner:

 

[captainjack0000]

It said something like heat can be trapped under their body, creating an even hotter spot than what the UTH is set at. Is there any truth to this?

I think this has to do with substrate thickness. You can set a UTH to a certain temperature, but if you have too much mulch, it acts like an insulator and can raise the temp higher than the UTH was set at. The way to avoid this is to use a thermostat with temp probe. The probe should read the temp, insulated or not and adjust the UTH accordingly.

I think UTH instructions say no more than 1" of substrate, which really isn't much to me.

 

[bitsy]

I really don't know at what point it matters. The rate of heat being transferred from an 85F pad through the snake to the air will decrease the warmer the air around the snake is. So if the ambient air is 85F, then there is no heat loss as far as the snake is concerned. (he is 85F on all 4 sides) If the ambient air gets over the temp of the UTH, then its like throwing hot water into boiling water.

Absolutely agree. If correct belly heat is provided, ambient temp isn't an issue. Unregulated ambient air temp on top of a regulated UTH is going to cause overheating. People in hot climates do have trouble keeping the ambient temp cool enough at times, but I'd still think that they need some kind of additional controlled heat source to cope with night-time dips. Pretty sure we're agreeing here.

Is there any evidence of corns who have been harmed by properly regulated ambient air temps only?

The operative words here are properly regulated. You could argue that if there were any problems, then they were not properly regulated.

Exactly my point. If ambient temperature is properly regulated then it's being controlled. I regularly say that many people keep Corns successfully with overhead heat sources which are regulated and correctly heated reptile rooms. I'm not sure we're actually disagreeing on this point. It's just that I question the need for properly regulated belly heat AND properly regulated ambient heat, at the same time.

I bet anybody who doesn't keep their house warm enough doesn't take the time to share their snake mishaps either. They probably won't be reading this forum either....

My point here is that many, many people on this forum who are active posters, DO use regulated belly heat only. We share our misfortunes and mishaps openly and honestly - some far worse than heating issues - so that other people can learn from our experiences and give us advice for better alternatives. If nobody on this board can say that properly regulated belly heat only (with no additional regulated ambient heat) has caused a problem, then - well, in my mind, there's a good chance that there really isn't a problem with it. It's not bad keepers who use regulated belly heat only. If there was a problem caused by doing that, many of us would be shouting it from the rooftops right here, to prevent other people falling into the same trap.

Is there any evidence of corns who have been harmed by properly regulated ambient air temps only?

I wouldn't expect there to be. As I've frequently posted, whilst regulated belly heat seems more the norm, plenty of folk keep Corns successfully with regulated overhead heat sources - or heated reptile rooms. You just need to keep an eye on the humidity.

The operative words here are properly regulated. You could argue that if there were any problems, then they were not properly regulated.

Again, we're in complete agreement.

My issue is with your original contention that you need properly regulated belly heat AND properly regulated ambient heat at the same time. I would say that one or the other is absolutely fine and has many decades of combined Corn-keeping experience on this board to back it up.

 

[diamondlil]

In my house, my ambient air temps are comfortable for me, with my central heating thermostat set for 19 degrees in the cooler months, so I just use regulated heat cables in my racks to provide a gradient in the tubs. More of an issue for me is overheating in the summer (well, the few weeks of hot weather we get in England!). If we do get a heat wave, the heat cables will shut off by their thermostats and I just change the water bowls more frequently and run big fans to keep cooler air circulating.
I'd say that most homes where the air temp is comfortable for the humans will be fine for the corns.