Ambient Air vs Belly Heat

[Skully23]

I would also think but don't know for sure that you would want pretty steady temperatures. You don't want ambient air house temps dropping to the 50s at night and back up to the 80s during the day.

Can anybody share more about this...highly variable temps?

It might happen that way in the wild, but my snakes don't live in the wild.

Somebody else said this and I liked it. I don't want my snakes to survive, I want them to thrive.

My room during the summer use to always have an a/c in the window, well when I got more reptiles, I removed it and haven't had it since. So during the summer my room reaches 80 degrees or more. Now during the winter my room gets as low as 60 degrees at night, about 65 during day.

I never kept my air temps regulated but after a few conversations, thoughts, and reading posts....I finally decided to give my reptiles the best. I recently moved all my snakes into a spare little room and I have them all set on flex watt heat instead of heatpads. I have a space heater that keeps the room no lower than 78. I also mounted a less bright light rather than the rooms light to the wall and have found a great difference in my snakes. That is now my reptile room with my style of a rack system.

The results of making sure my air temps didn't fluctuate to more than 15 degrees and having a 12 hour light period, were great. My snakes are now more active at night, thriving in 80 degrees and during the day they are found in any spot of the enclosure. They have even grown more than they did with cold temps.

This being said, I believe that air temps can make a difference in how your snake acts. Mine are more active and thriving on eating. I still have UTHs but wouldn't suggest only having "above" heat sources. Always use a UTH and make sure the air is comfortable and stable.

I don't know. I bet anybody who doesn't keep their house warm enough doesn't take the time to share their snake mishaps either. They probably won't be reading this forum either....

I just explained myself. Our house has poor air temps, I'm always freezing. If we different turn the base board heating on throughout the main part of the house then we all would be uncomfortable at 60 degrees. The reason I didn't use my base board heating in my room was because I don't like to sleep hot and they can't be regulated to make you feel comfortable. I'm sure my room reached 85 and higher because I kept my door closed. So I sleep in layers in the winter and without layers and a fan during the summer. But I took the time and a little bit of money to turn my unused little spare bathroom into a reptile room that is constantly heated.

Well thought out thread! I believe both uses are important but I'm not saying use heat lamps, I'm saying make the air comfortable with a UTH

 

[BugAyedBradshaw]

Here's something that I've had brewing for a little while....convection (heating an object with a fluid, but in our case, air) has a less significant effect on the temperature of an object than does conduction (heating an object via physical contact).

I know, from my own experience, if I stick my hand outside into 31 degree air (which is the actual temperature outside as I type this), it feels cold. Now, if I go and touch something that is outside that is at 31, say my car door or car window, that will feel a lot colder to me. Both are the exact same temperature, but one method of energy transfer is far more effective than the other.

I think it's the same with our snakes, and what they prefer as a heating method. Though 3 sides of the snake are experiencing the air temp, say 50 deg, but the belly is feeling 85 deg, it will be just fine and healthy. But reverse that: the air temp that is touching 3 sides is 85 and the belly temp is 50. My thought would be the snake wouldn't be with us for very long.

Do you guys agree with that?

 

[BugAyedBradshaw]

I mean, yes, I understand if the air temp is 85, the belly temp won't be 50. I was being purely hypothetical.

The point I was making is that the feeling I'm getting is the MOST important heat source is UTH. Then, regulating the air comes secondary, but that it as long as your room your snake(s) is in is reasonable for a human, you don't need an additional ambient heat source. (Please correct me if I'm off base or just wrong. I want to learn.)

 

[Skully23]

The point I was making is that the feeling I'm getting is the MOST important heat source is UTH. Then, regulating the air comes secondary, but that it as long as your room your snake(s) is in is reasonable for a human, you don't need an additional ambient heat source. (Please correct me if I'm off base or just wrong. I want to learn.)

The "MOST" important is an UTH. You are correct.

Additional ambient heat source isn't needed if the room is already at that comfortable spot for the snake. Like me, I had to add a space heater because my air wasn't even comfortable for me.

 

[El Jefe]

Like with anything we do with our snakes we, as humans, overthink every possibility. The bedding, food, water, temperature, etc.

We want what we believe is best for the animal and we will do what we can to make it happen. We use so and so bedding so the snake can't accidentally ingest some of it even though in the wild there is no human hovering over the snake to make sure a pine needle isn't ingested. We feed frozen thawed because the snake might get hurt with live prey all the while these snakes have been eating live critters for thousands of years without our precious freezers, thawing, and wiggling of the rodents. Change the water daily/weekly/hourly/whateverly because in the wild all snakes drink from crystal clear springs. And of course, heat.

Is belly heat bad? Is radiant heat bad? I don't really know. What I do know is that in thousands of hours of field research it was rare for me to find a snake "sunning" itself on a rock...especially after large meals. Most of the time the snake was stretched out with the food bolus in the radiant heat of the sun. I had radio tracked timber rattlesnakes that had huge lumps in them from a meal of squirrel and never did I find them seeking out rock outcrops to digest even though those areas would provide the belly heat we are discussing and often relatively close by. Occasionally, I'd have snakes on a rock outcrop because the crevices they used were important shelter so that is where the remained. In these areas, however, they were in the sun to digest and often times actually NOT on the rock and instead on small debris piles on the outcrop. Is that for camouflage or avoidance of rocks for belly heat? I don't know. But there were times they were under fallen branches or trees and on debris instead of 2 feet over on exposed rock.

At night we often find snakes on roads. Some would say that they are there because the roads are hot and they are resting on the hot road since it is nighttime. Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps not. In snake history, roads are a recent event. Much of my nocturnal field work away from roads has me observing it is very rare for them to find a rock or other heated surface to lay on to better digest. I think in actuality the road is an anomaly and might be foreign enough to them that they will take a pause because of the heat change from the sand/dirt to the pavement. Whether they actually seek it out or prefer it, that I cannot answer but I personally do not belive that is the case. Remember, road cruising is not useful method of finding snakes just because snakes "use" the road heat. Cruising roads as many advantages such as easy sight distance, less camouflaging ability of snakes, and the unit area covered per time is greater than walking the habitat.

Granted, the belly heat surfaces I am referring to are constantly in flux. As they can gain heat, they can also lose heat. In our human made enclosures, belly heat can remain constant. This may be a huge improvement and thus a very viable method for heating a snake. I personally have used all heat methods: heat tape, rope, panels as well as room heat and light heat. I think they can all work to heat the ectotherm. For some critters, there are probably advantages to certain ways. Spot/light heat not only warms the spot but also the air and can give a better thermal gradient than belly heat tape...especially in a large enclosure. In a small one, however, the belly heat may be able to provide that nice thermal gradient. Air heat, however, is drier and humidity concerns can be an issue. Belly heat is also WAY more convenient for our snake enclosure systems we call racks. We can store many snakes in a small area and properly heat them for digestion using belly heat. Does it work. Yes. Is it ideal. I don't know.

Does it matter? Probably not. We make their environments comfy. Good heat, good food, good bedding and clean water. Could they live without some of these amenities. Sure. So can we. We don't "need" half of what we have to survive...but it sure is nice to have. I like getting in my car and being able to turn on the ac or heat instead of jumping on a horse and riding into town and having to brave the elements.

 

[diamondlil]

I can definately say that having got something that needs a basking source, my terrapin, her lamp burns up my electric far more than all my racks ever have!

 

[Skully23]

El Jefe, your response is interesting. However we do the "best" and over think because we want them to be comfortable. My snakes aren't from the wild so using that every time isn't really a good comparison. YES, in the wild they do certain things etc but NO, our pets aren't wild and haven't been for awhile. They may still have certain instincts but like you said, we don't know how they benefit.

 

[captainjack0000]

Skully,

My point about who posts and who doesn't is that those people who are very negligent about their pets probably don't read forums or use them. You are not that person because you provided a room for your snakes.

It is selection bias.

I see many new snake owners that come to the forum for questions, which is great, but I often wonder how many new snake owners don't use this forum, or any forum.

 

[captainjack0000]

Thank you El Jefe...more food for thought.

 

[BugAyedBradshaw]

I see many new snake owners that come to the forum for questions, which is great, but I often wonder how many new snake owners don't use this forum, or any forum.

I didn't even think to start using a forum till I was looking at my Subaru forum and thought, "hey, there's got to be a corn snake forum..."

Thank you El Jefe...more food for thought.

Ditto. That definitely makes you think.

 

[captainjack0000]

I know, from my own experience, if I stick my hand outside into 31 degree air (which is the actual temperature outside as I type this), it feels cold. Now, if I go and touch something that is outside that is at 31, say my car door or car window, that will feel a lot colder to me. Both are the exact same temperature, but one method of energy transfer is far more effective than the other.

I agree, and all my point has been is that at some point convection will overtake conduction.

Take your same scenario and instead of grabbing a cold door handle, grab a hot one with your right hand. You could hold on to that thing for hours and I bet your left hand will still be cold.

An ectotherms body doesn't heat up or cool down uniformly. I just don't know how much it matters for a 1.5" tall snake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/Marine_Iguana#p004h6hn

 

[captainjack0000]

I was thinking abou this from a different angle, almost literally. if I have an 18ft python, and the first 3 feet are on a UTH, what is the temperature of the last 3 feet of the animal? How much does blood flow, carring heat with it as it goes, contribute to temperature regulation?

I also remember hearing somebody with more experience than myself talking about how many burns on BPs result from 2 things. An unregulated UTH and too cold of ambient air temps. The snake, being cold from the ambient air, tries to burrow down towards the source of the heat, but reaches the glass bottom and is forced to stop there. It sits there for some period of time and gets burned because the UTH was unregulated.

You can tackle this 2 different ways. Regulate the UTH so no amount of burrowing and sitting on the glass will lead to a burn -or- change the ambient air so the snake has no incentive to burrow. I think the best option is both. I know some snakes burrow for the sake of burrowing, so regulating the UTH is most important, but I say be doubly cautious and keep the ambient air temps reasonable too.

 

[diamondlil]

My personal experience is from living in a temperate area (or temperamental if you follow the British weather patterns!) and keeping corns. So my comfort zone of ambient temperature of 19 degrees is fairly easily acheivable, and suits my corns too, with the addition of the regulated heat cables on my racks.
From what I know about heavy-bodied snakes, like pythons, heat mats can cause issues through thermal blocking, causing hot spots on a heatmat. I believe many UK keepers prefer regulated ceramic heaters for Royals

 

[BugAyedBradshaw]

Take your same scenario and instead of grabbing a cold door handle, grab a hot one with your right hand. You could hold on to that thing for hours and I bet your left hand will still be cold.

A lot less surface area in contact with the hot object....but I see your point.

 

[ddrueckh]

If the surface temperatures are being kept at what they should be with an UTH, what is the coldest ambient temperature you would expose the snake to? If the room that the snake is kept in gets to 60 at night, is that okay? What about 50? Thanks.

Dave

 

[captainjack0000]

Are we talking a short while like the power goes out, or a long while like every night for a few months in winter?

For me, the ambient air provides the cool side temp, and UTHs to me seem to provide more a warm spot than a gradiant. I wouldn't want more than maybe a 20 degree difference, so maybe no colder than 65F.

For a short while I think into the 50s would be okay, but not any lower. The again, these things are hard to kill. Anybody watch Billy the Exterminator? Check out season 3, episode 8, the Wolf Attack one. A rat snake of some variety (I can't remember exactly what kind) gets caught in a rat trap and survives.

If you're wanting to put the animal into brumation, then that is a whole different story.

 

[Dale]

While I do use belly heat setups in my collection, I don't buy into it being an absolute necessity be it for survival or "thriving" conditions. Do snakes in general seek out belly heat in the wild? No, they seek safety while they digest as long as the temperature is acceptable.

IMO, in captivity the most important thing to provide is a variable temperature gradient within a range as close as possible to what the animal would experience in its natural habitat. This is achieved by UTH, rear panel or ceiling devices. A place to cool off,a place to be "ambient" and a place to heat up if needed.

One advantage to NOT using belly heat setups is avoiding heat element malfunction disaster. Again, I say this just for the sake of argument as I do use belly heat, but am also making a rack system right now where I may attach my heat tape to the rear rather than the usual UTH.

 

[Chip]

I have had a back heated and a belly heated rack overheat and kill snakes (both were 4" flex). Just sayin'. I have the worst hodgepodge of un-matching racks ever, but am starting to lean more toward belly heat for my grow outs. I put my probe directly on the heat tape these days and that is a little safer. Dialing in the temps can take some time and configuring, and one rack might need to be set at 110 and another at 88 to get a proper hot spot.

 

[Dale]

Wow, when it goes then, it must really go. Is this typical of rear flex setups? Meaning are they as lethal as UTH setups when mishaps occur? I've never experienced either, I just assumed direct contact with UTH's would be worse?

I have had a back heated and a belly heated rack overheat and kill snakes (both were 4" flex). Just sayin'. I have the worst hodgepodge of un-matching racks ever, but am starting to lean more toward belly heat for my grow outs. I put my probe directly on the heat tape these days and that is a little safer. Dialing in the temps can take some time and configuring, and one rack might need to be set at 110 and another at 88 to get a proper hot spot.

 

[Chip]

My situation was probably not normal, and a fault to my own design. I built with 6 4" strips on melamine. Only one themostat probe and six strips of flex was truly to blame, since we all know Flexwatt will cook on rare occasion. But it was ten high with tubs, and all ten very well started hatchlings on that strip of heat tape died. I still think if I'd had good ventilation in the tubs, they'd have been okay.

My belly heat story was so horrible it almost got me out of the hobby. I don't like to talk about it.