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Aspen as a substrate = dangerous??

I read this thread with interest. As a complete beginner to Herps, and corns in particular (have just bought two) I realise I'm lacking in so much knowledge despite doing what I thought was a thorough research before I bought them.

I'm interested in why Jrgh17 quoted this:

Remove the prey item from the freezer and allow to defrost at room temperature. When defrosted, use forceps or tongs to pick up the rodent by the tail, and hold the prey in front of the snake for the snake to strike at.
Click to expand...

How should one feed f/t meals to corns? This is the way I was told to do it by the breeder I bought them off.

gigergal
 
Markey said:
Jenni, if her information is not sitting well with you then find another source to get information from.
I guess I don't get what the issue is.....
If you want to use Aspen, use it. I really think that the substrates that are considered safe are safe. It's really a personal preference.
As for taping eyes, I think that's insane......
As far as shedding goes, my snake always sheds within a few days after her eyes clear up. Just make sure your humidity levels are higher than normal and give your snake something rough but safe to scrape against. My snake loves to shed in the vines. She will also crawl through her moss piles....I love watching her shed!
Everyone has their own opinions as to how things are supposed to be done. I've seen two reptile vets who told me completely different things about my snake. You have to take the information, process it, and spit out the stuff that doesn't relate to you or that you don't agree with.
In the end, you want what is best for your snake and that's great. I've heard some really bad stories about some that don't.
I would find another person to read up on....just my opinion though and I'm a newbie to this site myself so I don't know much myself. I have had my corn for several years now and have found that I learned more just from owning the snake than from any reading I ever did. :0)
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You missed the point. This topic is an effort to discuss the pros and cons of various substrate materials, especially of a particulate matter, as well as the possibility of injury and/or infection associatesd with different substrates. The referenced website by Michelle Kaplan makes alot of references that are qustionable at best, and flat wrong in other instances. It doesn't matter if someone with experience can see the difference. What matters is that this website is being used by people with NO IDEA about basic husbandry, and it is providing erroneous and opinionated ideas as fact. I think that is a VERY important thing to point out, especially in a topic of this nature, which many, many new owners are bound to read, just to get some more information.

With that being said...I'm a bit of a sicko, I think. I abhor the idea of my snakes pooing on me. It makes me nauseous just thinking about it. Yet, I know that my snakes usually defecate within 3 days of eating. So, on the third day after feeding, I take them out, and let them cruise on some newspaper until they go, before our handling sessions commence. The point is, I DO watch my snakes go...frequently. I paid particular attention to this after reading the last topic regarding this, as I was curious as to just how much of a snake's "insides" come out during defecation. I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe that there is a risk of "sucking in" substrate materials during or after defecation. Yes, there is a tiny amount of the the vent which becomes exposed while the fecal material is being expelled. But the expulsion of the liquid and solid waste would seem to me to prevent any particulate substrate from attaching to the vent. As well, my snakes all crawl with theior tails high in the air after defecating, cleaning the outside of the cloacal area. To me it appears that the tail being raised lifts the cloacal opening off of the ground, and would further prevent substrate from sticking to the vent and being "sucked in". I just don't see HOW it could happen.

In the wild, I'm 100% POSITIVE that snakes do NOT go looking for newspaper, linoleum, papertowels, or cement to defecate. In fact, I am 100% CERTAIN that they take a dunmp wherever they feel like it, regardless of the substance they happen to be on. This means, wood, sticks, barks, beetles, ants, leaf litter, dirt, soil, sand, rock and all manner of other natural particulate matter is potentially killing thousands of wild snakes every day...right?
 
tyflier said:
In the wild, I'm 100% POSITIVE that snakes do NOT go looking for newspaper, linoleum, papertowels, or cement to defecate. In fact, I am 100% CERTAIN that they take a dunmp wherever they feel like it, regardless of the substance they happen to be on. This means, wood, sticks, barks, beetles, ants, leaf litter, dirt, soil, sand, rock and all manner of other natural particulate matter is potentially killing thousands of wild snakes every day...right?
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Perhaps they seek out a persons porch with nice cozy indoor-outdoor carpeting?? :shrugs: :grin01:

I should add that I am glad most folks seem to also think these folks are a bit "unhinged." I am still quite new to snakes and they had me feeling like I may as well just take my snake out and lop off his head if I am going to keep him on aspen...
 
I'm sorry, but I simply can not resist the opportunity to document this occasion in MS Paint.

aspen.bmp
 
Hypancistrus wrote:
Until I get more evidence to the contrary, I guess I just have to assume that this is a "threat" that is blown out of proportion a bit.
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And this is the response I got.

We've already been through this. There simply has not been studies done (because there is no funding for studies of this nature.)

Facts:

1) When reptiles defecate, cloacal tissue everts (for the sake of argument, I have witnessed this with my BP and my 3 bearded dragons... I do not have first hand observations of ALL reptiles.)

2) When this happens, small particles can STICK to the tissue. It is wet. Lick your fingertip and touch your aspen, you'll get the idea.

3) Since your snake is in an enclosure and not in the wild, they can not get OFF the substrate of your choice. (They can not move to an area with a different bedding.)

You can not convince me that there is no RISK that this will happen to your snake. Now - maybe it happens frequently with no negative effects, but IT WILL ONLY TAKE ONE TIME to do serious damage.

I drive with my seatbelt on, even though I have never hit anything with my car or been hit while driving.

The comparison to smoking was that everyone used to do it UNTIL studies were done which proved how bad it could be. The only argument for USING aspen is that "everyone uses it" - which is not a sound argument.

You need to give reasons FOR using it AND disprove the reasons AGAINST using it.

For the record - I too gave up aspen long ago and use turf.

BTW - there are MANY of us here who don't use aspen and use liner/carpet/turf which dismisses "EVERYONE uses aspen".
Click to expand...

I don't buy any of this. Now we have three people at a lizard forum who say that this risk is akin to getting lung cancer from smoking, or getting into a car crash. And yet no one here, on a forum devoted to SNAKES has ever heard of a snake getting aspen stuck to its cloaca??

Aparently this individual aserts that snakes will move to areas of non-particulate substrate in the wild to do their business? Is it wrong that I just don't think my snake is that bright? As some people have said, they seem to put a lot less "thought" into where they poop than even a dog.

So now I need to provide reasons FOR using aspen to prove to them that I am correct, when they have not yet provided anything other than their personal assertions that this is a valid danger.
 
What about citing behavioural preference? As in the burrowing? How much stress does not being able to burrow cause?
 
I think that if a piece sticks to the everted tissue, it will just be shoved off when the tissue is getting in again..... I cannot imagine a piece of substrate beign stuck in between that tissue and the ventral scales. And would it be, I guess the snake would feel it and just open up his vent again and slither over a surface to rub it off. I think they are smart enough to do so because they also rub their body's to rough surfaces when shedding.

And thinking that snakes do search for the right bedding to poo on just makes me chuckle... mine all poo on the bedding and hardly ever on a smooth surface.
 
tyflier said:
In the wild, I'm 100% POSITIVE that snakes do NOT go looking for newspaper, ...
Click to expand...
Well, of course, they go looking for newspaper. What else would they do while they relax and wait except read the daily headlines? :sidestep:

those"guys" said:
We've already been through this. There simply has not been studies done (because there is no funding for studies of this nature.)
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Oh, please. Has anyone tried asking for funding? The government funds some pretty crazy research. I'll bet this wouldn't even make 'em bat an eyelash.

themagain said:
1) When reptiles defecate, cloacal tissue everts....
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I'm willing to bet it works for monkeys, too. Be careful or you may end up with a commode sucked into your rectum.

2) When this happens, small particles can STICK to the tissue. It is wet. Lick your fingertip and touch your aspen, you'll get the idea.
Click to expand...
um ... no? My snakes crap on this stuff. I am not doing this!

3) Since your snake is in an enclosure and not in the wild, they can not get OFF the substrate of your choice.
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Okay, I'll give them this one. But it does nothing to strengthen their assertion without scientific proof. Ya' know, that silly scientific method referred to above. :grin01:


All-in-all, I say enjoy the entertainment they unwittingly provide and look for real information elsewhere. :wavey:
 
Be careful or you may end up with a commode sucked into your rectum.
Click to expand...

:laugh01: :laugh01: :laugh01:

Kitty said:
Okay, I'll give them this one. But it does nothing to strengthen their assertion without scientific proof. Ya' know, that silly scientific method referred to above.
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In response to that one, who here with 20+ snakes wants to line half of their enclosure with aspen and half with newspaper... we can see which side gets crapped on more.

Personally, I'd volunteer to do the statistics and write the scientific paper for it. It'd probably give my career a boost. :grin01:
 
diamondlil said:
What about citing behavioural preference? As in the burrowing? How much stress does not being able to burrow cause?
Click to expand...

Already did. They said corn snakes aren't a natural burrowing species, and they would keep their rosy boas and kenyan sand boas on sand. :shrugs:

I am not going to bother going back at this point. A few of the things said were borderline insulting... implying that I am a horrible pet owner for even subjecting my snake to such an awful risk... to which I replied there's a risk in handling as well, in causing the snakes stress, which might turn them off food or make them more susceptible to parasites. Yet we do handle our snakes... then again, I dunno, maybe they don't!

Here's one of the most recent posts.
...the ball is in our court to prove you wrong...the ball was in the publics court to prove ddt and smoking wrong (not manufacturing companies)...COP OUT...
The fact that you say that you never witnessed your animal defecating tells me that you simply don't spend enough time with it/don't have enough experience with reptiles. I got a call from a local herp keepers wife who was convinced that her snake was dying because she saw a red ring around its vent as it was defecating...you know what it was? Everted cloacal tissue coming into contact with the clean nonparticle substrate that they use! Imagine if that was aspen... Like wiping your butt with a handfull of...well...aspen shreds.
Pros of aspen: looks nice, easy to clean, cheap
Cons of aspen: potential of ingestion during feeding, potential ingestion during defecation, breeding ground for parasites, If proper care isn't taken can hide feces, harbors bacteria, dust can be taken into animal's respiratory system...list goes on and on
Click to expand...

This is the guy who keeps his animals on shelf liner. How pleasant for them. Very natural and comforting I bet.

At this point, I've pretty much had it with the negativity and personal attacks. I started out trying to honestly assess the situation. Asking questions of both sides and trying to keep it from becoming a situation in which people were simply insulting each other. I have to say now that I agree 100% with Waldo. These individuals believe they are right to the point that they are willing to ostracize and attack others to "prove their point." If anyone would like to read the entire thread, including Waldo's and my posts, please send me a PM. I always thought this particular forum was above this kind of crap... apparently I was wrong, or things have changed over the past few months. :(
 
I'd just like to say that i have witnessed my snake defecating- and she lifts her vent about half an inch off of the ground/ whatever substrate she's on. It seems that it would be difficult for anything to stick there if it is not touching anything, and its more of a "going out" motion than a "sucking in" motion anyways.

I have NOT witnessed any 'everting' of anything.


Impaction by feeding is easily solved by a feeding box. I can understand maybe that BP owners would not want to use one if their snakes are extra finicky, however, corns don't seem to have a problem with it at all. Corn care, is different than BP care.

Aspen is really easy to clean- "fossilized" poop is avoided by cleaning out the all the aspen every month or so, and spot cleaning is quite sufficient until then, I think. MUCH easier than cleaning repti-carpet every time she poos...
the aspen I find also absorbs smell. When she was on newspaper, I could smell when she had gone to the washroom, but with aspen, I can't ever.
this could be seen as a con, i guess, but i live in a small apartment. I don't want to smell snake poo- and I check her cage every day for soiled aspen, so it's not an excuse to leave it dirty.


Another pro of aspen is the ability to distribute heat very well, and provide a temp gradient that is very easy for the snake to regulate itself.
My corn doesnt "burrow", but she will carve out a little depression for herself on top of the heat mat- sometimes deep, sometimes not so deep, depending on how hot the mat is.

I could NOT for the life of me, get a proper heat distribution for the time that I had her on newspaper. It was much to hot locally, and much to cool everywhere else. there wasn't much choice for her regarding hides then, because i could only get one to the proper temperature and the rest were too cold.

With aspen I can get 3 hides within the warm heat range and 3 within the cool range, no problem. She used every single hide, and I would say exibits NO signs of stress, at all.
 
Hypancistrus said:
I am not going to bother going back at this point. A few of the things said were borderline insulting... implying that I am a horrible pet owner for even subjecting my snake to such an awful risk... to which I replied there's a risk in handling as well, in causing the snakes stress, which might turn them off food or make them more susceptible to parasites. Yet we do handle our snakes... then again, I dunno, maybe they don't!
Click to expand...

I've been watching that thread since last night... and I agree that they're resorting to indirect insults and such at this point.

I think we need to give some help here. So c'mon people... a list of reasons why you use aspen!

1) Inexpensive
2) Absorbs fecal matter well
3) Looks good
4) Doesn't get soggy (like newspaper does)
5) Snakes get good traction (from the Cornsnake Manual)
6) Easy to "spot-clean"
7) Can be entirely replaced to sanitize for cleaning
8) Shy animals can tunnel and hide (and most seem to enjoy it)
9) The animal is able to choose if it would like to sit on the glass (closer to the heat source) or on a layer of substrate (a bit farther away, but still warm)
10) No existing evidence against it (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
11) Holds humidity from misting pretty well
12) Disperses heat well
13) No harmful phenols (odors from chemicals in the wood)
14) ...

Okay, I'm out of ideas, but I think there's a few more I missed. I'm interested to see people continue this list though.
 
sorry forgot one point-

I find that being able to provide proper heat distribution is much mroe important to me than the possibility that she might "suck" aspen into her vent.

Without proper heat, regurges are possible, which I personally feel is much more dangerous than "wiping with aspen shavings."
 
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