Bloodred VS. Diffused VS. NOT BLOODRED AT ALL

[marinneli]

I'm sorry but I've really really had it now and don't know what to do...

I've noticed that the quality of bloodreds in Finland isn't as good as I'd hope and since then I've been keeping my eye on bloodreds here and there and especially ones for sale (in Finland and around Europe) just in case I'd see any good ones.

What I've found out is that most people assume they're snakes are definitely Bloodreds because they're from het. Bloodred x het. Bloodred cross and have a white belly. And then they're selling these "bloodreds" to people who don't know any better. I've seen so many threads on different forums concerning the wondering "Why my bloodred is brown and not red at all?"

People don't seem to understand that selective breeding and PHENOTYPE (appearance) is what makes Bloodred a Bloodred. Genotype (two recessive diffusion traits) isn't enough. That is obvious and understood among Candycanes, but people seem to have forgotten the same rules apply when it comes to Bloodreds.

Normal x Candycane = Normal het. Amel. NOT HET. CANDYCANE
F1 Normal het. Amel x F1 Normal het. Amel = Normals, Amels. MOST LIKELY NO CANDYCANES

Well, as I've said the quality of Bloodreds is very poor around here - and that's because most Bloodreds are actually only Diffuseds. But people don't see or understand it, and then they breed these "bloodreds" further and get "bloodred" hatchlings and sell them for quite a lot of money (given the fact that they're not bloodreds at all)...and even if they've been told otherwise and informed about the differences between bloodreds and diffuseds, they don't admit it.


The pictures behind the links don't directly have anything to do with the text above, but these are two BLOODREDS that are currently for sale in Sweden. And these have been bred toghether twice, and I presume the babies have been sold as bloodreds as the parents are "bloodreds" too.

Seeing the pics made me scream and cry.

Bloodred
Another Bloodred


I guess those two are the worst cases I've seen so far. Or at least very close to it. I understand it's pretty hard to identify which bloodred hatchlings are going to be good bloodreds and which not (of course parents' phenotypes and the bloodline in general should give a hint)...but how can anyone claim these two adults are BLOODREDS???


I'm so fed up with this and I'm worried about the Bloodred morph. We desperately need people to breed pure old schoold bloodreds so the breeding of these miserable jokes for bloodreds will stop and people won't ruin the whole morph!




Sorry for pouring this all out, but I'm really p*ssed off...

 

[diamondlil]

Oh dear, very poor examples. Not even really diffused let alone 'bloods'

 

[Susan]

Those actually remind me of Upper Keys bloods, but I fully understand your frustration. Many people just don't fully understand the difference between a good diffuse and a selectively bred bloodred. If you're really interseted in "old school" bloodreds, I would recommend you contact Vinman. That's the only kind he breeds, and has been working on them for years...and he has ways of getting snakes over to your side of the pond.

 

[marinneli]

Those actually remind me of Upper Keys bloods, but I fully understand your frustration. Many people just don't fully understand the difference between a good diffuse and a selectively bred bloodred. If you're really interseted in "old school" bloodreds, I would recommend you contact Vinman. That's the only kind he breeds, and has been working on them for years...and he has ways of getting snakes over to your side of the pond.

Thanks for the hint, Susan! That's something I might do. Not this year, but maybe next year. I know Finland needs good Bloods, and this is not the only country.

Anyway, just to bring up something positive as well:
I did find some stunning Bloodreds and Granites for sale in Sweden! Not going to get one, but RESPECT to the breeder!!! :bowdown:

Bloodred hatchling
Granite hatchling

 

[marinneli]

Those actually remind me of Upper Keys bloods

I'm not sure whether we have Upper Keys bloods in Northern Europe... I've never seen or heard of any. Even regular Upper Keys around here can be counted with fingers (one hand). So I doubt these would be Upper Keys bloods...at least the for sale add clearly says they're "bloodreds".

 

[Caryl]

What I've found out is that most people assume they're snakes are definitely Bloodreds because they're from het. Bloodred x het. Bloodred cross and have a white belly. And then they're selling these "bloodreds" to people who don't know any better. I've seen so many threads on different forums concerning the wondering "Why my bloodred is brown and not red at all?"

People don't seem to understand that selective breeding and PHENOTYPE (appearance) is what makes Bloodred a Bloodred. Genotype (two recessive diffusion traits) isn't enough. That is obvious and understood among Candycanes, but people seem to have forgotten the same rules apply when it comes to Bloodreds.

Well, as I've said the quality of Bloodreds is very poor around here - and that's because most Bloodreds are actually only Diffuseds. But people don't see or understand it, and then they breed these "bloodreds" further and get "bloodred" hatchlings and sell them for quite a lot of money (given the fact that they're not bloodreds at all)...and even if they've been told otherwise and informed about the differences between bloodreds and diffuseds, they don't admit it.

I guess those two are the worst cases I've seen so far. Or at least very close to it. I understand it's pretty hard to identify which bloodred hatchlings are going to be good bloodreds and which not (of course parents' phenotypes and the bloodline in general should give a hint)...but how can anyone claim these two adults are BLOODREDS???

I think a lot of the confusion comes from the fact that the gene for diffusion is AKA bloodred. "Bloodred" refers both to this gene and to a specific look, which is a phenotypic refinement of animals that carry this gene.

Yes, offspring from a Bloodred x het bloodred cross who have plain bellies are technically "bloodred" in the strict sense that they carry this gene. They may exhibit any range of colors, as well as a range of diffusion.

Your candy cane analogy is valid for the phenotypic bloodred with a specific red color and good diffusion. Candy canes (genotypically amels) are line-bred for a phenotypic look. You're accurate in that animals can't be het for a phenotypic look they don't possess.

However, animals that have poor diffusion and aren't red at all (poor examples of diffuse aneries for example) can still be homozygous for the diffusion allele, which is also called the bloodred allele. The plain belly is a marker for this allele, in the absence of motley or stripe traits. They can be rightly called "diffuse or bloodred," or het for same, when one is speaking of the genotype.

Sadly, some breeders either don't know or don't care that there are degrees of phenotypic expression that occur with genetic diffusion. The casual pet-buying general populace has no clue whatsoever about the confusing nomenclature, and assumes that if an animal is called "bloodred" it's going to grow up red.

I'm guilty of referring to animals with the diffusion gene as being "bloods" even if they're not carrying traits to make them red. The terminology is embedded in the hobby, as is the case for many other confusing common names. I'm personally trying to use "diffuse" instead, especially with those unfamiliar with corn snake vocabulary, but I'm afraid we must remain aware that merely possessing a recessive genetic trait doesn't equate to being a stunning example of that trait in phenotype.

 

[T2-Toxin]

search for www.anguis.de

fantastic hypobloodreds or fire...

 

[vetusvates]

Thanks for the hint, Susan! That's something I might do. Not this year, but maybe next year. I know Finland needs good Bloods, and this is not the only country.

Anyway, just to bring up something positive as well:
I did find some stunning Bloodreds and Granites for sale in Sweden! Not going to get one, but RESPECT to the breeder!!! :bowdown:

Bloodred hatchling
Granite hatchling

Marinneli, I meant to say it the first time around, but those links to the pics from the breeder in Sweden are breathtaking (not a word I use lightly).

In my humble little experience, I have come to like the diffuse gene, and in the many pictures I've searched through and viewed...it's expression has quite a great range over here in the US, too.

It seems almost surreal that there are corn snakes, of all things, in Sweden, of all places. A species from our own backyard (over here). Although, those Sweden specimens are not something one finds just anywhere.

 

[Nanci]

Those actually remind me of Upper Keys bloods.

Exactly what I thought when I saw the second snake.

 

[marinneli]

It seems almost surreal that there are corn snakes, of all things, in Sweden, of all places.

Hey hey hey, there are corn snakes in Finland too, you know! And we're even farther away from you than Sweden! :crazy01:

 

[vetusvates]

Hey hey hey, there are corn snakes in Finland too, you know! And we're even farther away from you than Sweden! :crazy01:

Yes, true, and that fascinates me even more!

 

[Caryl]

I'm glad we have local corns. They are well worth sharing with the world! ;-)

 

[TandJ]

I have about 4 ( maybe a few others ) different blood, blood lines around here...

Oddly enough, some come out of Rich Humes mystery project ( the old school blood lines Vinman uses ), some from a project that Susan and Joe Jr did, some from old KL and Rich Z lines, and a few odds and ends from people like Emanon..

From what I have seen hatched, I know I do just as well as the big guys for bloods..


Rich Hume Mystery Lines..

Old picture, she is a lot more red than this.. Joe Jr and Susan Project animal..

Stephen Wager's.. From KL and RZ crosses... By far the Blood in my collection that is far superior to the rest of the bloods... His offspring is generally very dark in bloods, well diffused in granites and deep red with the fires.. He has another year or two to go before he reaches his final red stage at about 5 or 6 yrs old..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Caryl]

Tim, those really ARE beautiful bloodreds! I really wish I could convince my husband that I really do need 1.2 "old school" bloodreds. I'm focusing on my caramel projects (including diffused), but I do love those red, red beauties! Thanks for posting the photos.

 

[Camby]

Those actually remind me of Upper Keys bloods, but I fully understand your frustration. Many people just don't fully understand the difference between a good diffuse and a selectively bred bloodred. If you're really interseted in "old school" bloodreds, I would recommend you contact Vinman. That's the only kind he breeds, and has been working on them for years...and he has ways of getting snakes over to your side of the pond.

I agree with Susan. The ground coloration and blotch shape hints at a keys snake, but even the rosy bloods seem to have more diffusion than these. Maybe they are outcrosses of the "old school" blood to a keys :shrugs:

Either way, I agree with the original poster, even if they are pure bloods, it is a poor quality.

dc