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Boa hybrids and python hybrids

K

katkrazy2007

Just say 'yes' to corns[:
I am not an expert on the snakes but I know there is a large degree of difference from spices to species , here is my question what are the most extreme hybrids .i have heard of burm balls , so is it possible to do green tree python x ball python or emerald tree boa andaconda or other extreme crosses such as sand boa andaconda ? What at the limitations ? Size,mechanics ,gentics what is considered possible?
 
BloodyBaroness said:
They must be a similar genus for starters, then you have a few other things to consider, like size etc...

This is a list of genus classifications:
http://www.snakes-uncovered.com/Classification_of_snakes.html

Also here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_snakes

This forum will probably be able to answer questions really well.: http://www.hybridhaven.net/index.php?sid=a44c07c6aaf782136b3faa01e074be73
Click to expand...
what do you mean similar genus? i understand size but how do you know if genus is similar ? i mean is there an instant way of knowing or do you just have to research it? also burm ball parents seem impossible considering that ? by the i asked the original question its my gfs screen name
 
Genus would have nothing to do with it. People breed cornsnakes and kings together and they are different genus. Corns being Pantherophus, and kings being Lampropeltis. Technically if they are in the same species it could be done, but genetically they can be so far apart as to be non viable. A ball python, python regis, would most likely not be able to viably produce with a green tree python..not even sure how you would get them to breed for that matter. One is arboreal, the other not at all...one lives in high humidity, the other in moderate...not even found in the same part of the world or in the same type of living areas. Size would be a huge factor, especially between say a sand boa and anaconda...not even possible IF you could get them to breed at all. Just because it's the same family (boidae) doesn't mean either would be interested in the other. Again, the two species are from completely different parts of the world, live in completely different conditions and the size difference would make say the sand boa not be able to carry the larger anaconda babies and an anaconda mother would not even be able to hook up with the male. There isn't even viable offspring for two genus that are the same. Green tree pythons are being bred with Carpet pythons. Both are Morelia genus but the offspring have not been able to produce anything should the two mutants (sorry hybrids) try to pair up. I've only seen viable offspring from a green tree python/carpondro pairing no carpondro/carpondro. Not sure why anyone would be interested in doing it anyway. Have seen some interesting looking offspring from Amazon tree boas and Emerald tree boas, but again, have never heard of those hybrids reproducing. The differences in genetics may just be as bad as a mules...sterility or result in a fatal gene such as you see if you attempt to produce hairless dogs by breeding two hairless parents. You can only breed one hairless to the haired variety in order to produce puppies. Some things just shouldn't be done. I dislike hybrids intensely. While some naturally occur in natur (rats and corns for instance) no king would ever breed with a corn in nature. Shouldn't be done howevr "cool" looking the babies come out.
 
Which I why I said "similar genus."

Yes, genus has something to do with it. You have to know the family and genus to see of they have a chance at being compatible. Comparing family classifications and genus is the first place to start.

You can not breed a Dispholidus typus (bloomslang) to a Pituophis catenifer (gopher snake) They are the same family, Colubrinae, but an incompatible genus.

However, you can breed a (Eastern ratsnake) Pantherophis alleghaniensis to (Common kingsnake) Lampropeltis getula. Why? Because they are a similar genus within the Lampropeltini Tribe.

It goes:

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Family: Colubridae
Subfamily: Colubrinae
Tribe: Lampropeltini
Genus: Pantherophis


Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Suborder: Serpentes
Family: Colubridae
Subfamily: Colubrinae
Tribe: Lampropeltini
Genus: Lampropeltis

The breeding is compatible because the genus are similar from being in the same tribe. Knowing the genus helps you trace back to see if the snakes even stand a chance at being compatible. It's easier to start from the bottom up Genus, Tribe, Subfamily, Family, when comparing hybrid possibility.

Still, there are many things within a family that can not produce offspring when crossed.

If you want to check to see if certain hybrids are possible, go here: http://www.hybridhaven.net/index.php?sid=fca9a8da5127de0ffd9d0ad107b2f12b If it's possibly, that site will have info on it.
 
Crosses between subfamilies have been done. When wondering what can and what will not cross breed the best method is to actually try to breed. The best way to fail is to never try. When a physical obstacle such as size gets in your way you can circumvent this via artificial means such as artificial insemination etc. Man has been breeding plants for instance that would not normally be able to breed in nature simply because the blooming times are off. The easy fix for this was simply to collect, dry, and then freeze the pollen one needed and wait for the appropriate time to pollinate. Mind you some hybrids are virtually sterile, but not 100% so in many cases and when sterility is a factor with the progeny produced it is generally the males that are sterile. Just because a hybrid such as an aprium or a jackal dog can be created does not mean we shouldn't strive to improve on these hybrids. Pushing the creative envelop as far as it will go and then some....
 
People have been hybridizing for much of recorded history. Its in our nature. But why do I personally like hybrids? They offer up the potential for new phenotypes which I find aesthetically pleasing. I look at hybrids as a work of art and those that create those works of art as artists. If you look at the vast plethora of hybrids that we as a human species have created merely for our aesthetic enjoyment then you will find a great volume of information and your whys will be answered in that search.
 
They are purely un-natural. Can't get into them. If they occur naturally...fine....if not, there's a reason for it. It goes against nature. For some, it's a fatal mix, for some, sterility. I just don't get it....mad science! Pigs are pretty close to humans...maybe we should try that! Yeah, that sounds like a good idea...cuz it's our nature :)
 
:noevil:Meg, Cars are unnatural. Do you drive a car? Mad science also gets electricity to your house to power your computer which is more mad science. Many snake hybrids created are highly fertile. I'm a big fan of hybrids. Many foods, flowers, animals, etc.... are hybrids created by man.:noevil:
 
I have no problem with non living things....Cars are fine....innanimate objects are fine. Messing with animals....not fine. They aren't meant to cross for a reason. If they were supposed to, they would. I don't even have issues with genetics to try to stop disease..but randomly breeding freakish offspring just to say we can? Why? There are hybrids created by man in food...GMO foods now are the big thing..and they are finding that they aren't as healthy for you as they first thought. There are penalties for messing with what shouldn't be. I love sciene...I'm a science geek at heart...but the indiscriminate breeding of creatures that shouldn't be holds no interest for me. Stick to creating electricity. Make something worthwhile. At least a mule has a purpose.....mixing two species of snake that perhaps aren't even from the same part of the world....why? Go climb a mountain if you just want to say "because I can". Go into space....whatever....just my personal feelings. If you want hybrids and like them...by all means, create away. Just make sure that people KNOW that it's a hybrid (I see way too many breeders not disclosing) and enjoy. I don't have to buy them from you, which is what is cool! Everyone can have what they want...
 
MegF. said:
I have no problem with non living things....Cars are fine....innanimate objects are fine. Messing with animals....not fine. They aren't meant to cross for a reason. If they were supposed to, they would. I don't even have issues with genetics to try to stop disease..but randomly breeding freakish offspring just to say we can? Why? There are hybrids created by man in food...GMO foods now are the big thing..and they are finding that they aren't as healthy for you as they first thought. There are penalties for messing with what shouldn't be. I love sciene...I'm a science geek at heart...but the indiscriminate breeding of creatures that shouldn't be holds no interest for me. Stick to creating electricity. Make something worthwhile. At least a mule has a purpose.....mixing two species of snake that perhaps aren't even from the same part of the world....why? Go climb a mountain if you just want to say "because I can". Go into space....whatever....just my personal feelings. If you want hybrids and like them...by all means, create away. Just make sure that people KNOW that it's a hybrid (I see way too many breeders not disclosing) and enjoy. I don't have to buy them from you, which is what is cool! Everyone can have what they want...
Click to expand...

Meg, this guy was here a few month back spewing exactly the same stuff word for word over and over. He digs up any thread that has the word "hybrid" in it just so he can repeat himself yet again. The last time he was here he even went into someone's For Sale ad and said that the seller was selling beautiful hybrids when the animals for sale were pure corns. Made quite a few enemies that day, I can tell you! He knows how most members of this forum feel about hybrids, but he won't stop.
 
I like hybrids. I see many that do as well and yes, I post on threads that interest me that mention hybrids... is that a crime? Meg makes an interesting point though, "They aren't meant to cross for a reason. If they were supposed to, they would."
I'm not sure I'm following the logic here. They do cross and create hybrids, so... what is the reason they are not supposed to cross exactly? I will try to keep my posts about hybrids on hybrid postings. If you don't like posts about hybrids you don't have to visit them. I am tring to contain my posts about hybrids to threads where others are actually interested in them mention them first. I am new to the corn snake hobby and if I messed up by thinking someone posted a hybrid when they didn't it was called a beginners mistake and nothing to get your panties in a wad about.
 
So to recap.
1. I made a horrendous mistake and posted about hybrids in a hybrids thread knowing full well how some members feel about hybrids.

2. I told someone I liked their snake and called it a hybrid thinking full well that it was... no ill intent meant.

Where should one post about hybrids if not in a thread about hybrids?

I apologize for these things if they are punishable offenses. I left for some time as I wanted to let things die down and learn more on my own so I wouldn't make a horrendous mistake and tell someone eles that I liked their hybrid when in fact it was not. I do call people out on things I see as illogical as I would like others to do for me if they see me using faulty logic.
 
The reasons pretty much would be because they aren't from the same parts of the world in many cases. Many of the hybrids hypothesized in the post (and in reality) are of species not even found in the same part of the world. The thread originally I believe was whether or not they could be produced...extreme hybrids I believe was how it was worded. This opened up as to whether or not it would be possible....which leads into the why. You can't have a conversation such as this without people expressing their opinions. I think it's great you like hybrids. I don't, and I stated why I don't. I think they are unatural and shouldn't be produced. While there are species that do cross in the wild (corns and rats for instance) there is no indication anywhere that a kingsnake will mate with a corn in the wild. Eating them seems to be the normal interaction. I'm not sure why someone would do something so unatural as to get two species that would NEVER in a million years procreate to do so. I am not saying that you in any way made an error or are in fact doing anything wrong. I think it's great that we're all here discussing. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me. That's how it is on forums. I do think we can all be civil about it. If I have a problem with what you are saying, I'll say so. I'm a big girl! While I appreciate you giving me the "head's up" Bethany, it is unnecesary. Carpe (sorry, I don't know your real name) if you want to talk about hybrids because you are passionate about them. Please do. Just expect that others might not agree...and some will. I don't think there's much middle ground with them though....it's kind of like flying...you like it or hate it...there's no in between. As far as advertising. My issue is with breeders selling things like rootbeers, and creamsicles and not letting people know they are hybrids. Many new snake owners would think it's just a morph, not a hybrid and for that I object strongly. When your hybrid shows little of the mix it ethically necessary to make sure the people buying from you know what they are getting. There are literally morphs created daily and most people can't keep up with what's a color morph and what's a hybrid...especiallly when it's cloaked in a name that suggests color not species. At least you know a carpondro is a hybrid...they didn't name it green sea tea or something.
 
I can easily see how this thread could go sideways as ultra corn hybrids or not... and how ethical is it to cross or lose track of hybrid genes so I will address the portion of your post where you state, "Many of the hybrids hypothesized in the post (and in reality) are of species not even found in the same part of the world." I don't find geography to be an issue with creating hybrids or breeding. We have humans that are from all over the world interbreeding and we have created many lovely flower hybrids, dog jackal hybrids, etc from regionally distinct areas of the globe and even had to resort to artificial means to produce them. I just don't see a reason not to do hybridize based on miles. I like that you think we should be allowed to express our oppinion on extreme hybrids. My opinion is not only have more extreme hybrids been created, but they have been loved by the masses. Hybrids are can be very beautiful if the hybridizer takes the time to blend traits to get novel new combinations significantly different from the originals to warrant grabbing someones attention in a pleasant way. All in all, I liked your last post.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
I like hybrids. I see many that do as well and yes, I post on threads that interest me that mention hybrids... is that a crime? Meg makes an interesting point though, "They aren't meant to cross for a reason. If they were supposed to, they would."
I'm not sure I'm following the logic here. They do cross and create hybrids, so... what is the reason they are not supposed to cross exactly? I will try to keep my posts about hybrids on hybrid postings. If you don't like posts about hybrids you don't have to visit them. I am tring to contain my posts about hybrids to threads where others are actually interested in them mention them first. I am new to the corn snake hobby and if I messed up by thinking someone posted a hybrid when they didn't it was called a beginners mistake and nothing to get your panties in a wad about.
Click to expand...

You looked at a snake and didn't even know what it WAS. This was a snake that most on here, even newbies, could identify without a problem. And you want to mix it with whatever to make your version of "art". The seller even listed the morph, and yet you had no idea that that morph was a pure animal. You don't even know the BASICS. You want to experiment with living things that you don't even understand at all. I find it sad.
 
starsevol said:
You looked at a snake and didn't even know what it WAS. This was a snake that most on here, even newbies, could identify without a problem. And you want to mix it with whatever to make your version of "art". The seller even listed the morph, and yet you had no idea that that morph was a pure animal. You don't even know the BASICS. You want to experiment with living things that you don't even understand at all. I find it sad.
Click to expand...

I find it sad that you think that you shouldn't be allowed to make mistakes as a newbie. There are all levels of newbie and while I was and still do consider myself a newbie where it concerns corns, I am by no means a newbie where it concerns knowledge of hybridizing or hybridizing techniques and I am always trying to learning more. I find many things sad, but even sadder is not realizing the potential two different species might be able to create if given a helping hand to create new phenotypes. As you stated Starsevol, many do not like hybrids so there is not as much knowledge about them if that is the case and that leaves the door wide open for exploring new untapped beauties. For what its worth, out of 10,000+ hybrids I've created in a single year... only a handful were good enough for me to release.
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
I find it sad that you think that you shouldn't be allowed to make mistakes as a newbie. There are all levels of newbie and while I was and still do consider myself a newbie where it concerns corns, I am by no means a newbie where it concerns knowledge of hybridizing or hybridizing techniques and I am always trying to learning more. I find many things sad, but even sadder is not realizing the potential two different species might be able to create if given a helping hand to create new phenotypes. As you stated Starsevol, many do not like hybrids so there is not as much knowledge about them if that is the case and that leaves the door wide open for exploring new untapped beauties. For what its worth, out of 10,000+ hybrids I've created in a single year... only a handful were good enough for me to release.
Click to expand...

But you don't even know how something is SUPPOSED to look before you want to play erector set with it.
You can't even begin to identify the base ingredients of what you want to do!
As much as I dislike anything having to do with hybrids, I do have respect for the people who at least know what they are working with. You can't even achieve that much.
 
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