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Boston manhunt search

Your forum entitles you to your expressed opinion, but I'm trying hard to see where anything in that video in that situation should freak people out.

1) They knocked, did not crash door, did not point weapons at the individuals in the house
2) No one was manhandled or cuffed - the closest to physical contact was one officer putting the first person's arms back up, and the weapon patdowns once the folks were away from the house.
3) Six minutes is a LONG time - there was no urgency evident on the part of the cops, just prudent removal of a single person at a time from the house. They weren't handling this roughly or adding to the climate of fear that was certainly already present.
4) We have NO idea about the reason this specific house was targeted - was there a tip, a credible threat? Were the officers concerned the folks in the house might be in danger from the nearby suspect? We don't know, and making assumptions is a lousy idea in the best of times.

Would this be appropriate in a search for a simple felon? I don't think so.

Was this appropriate when trying to capture a terrorist/bomber/multiple murderer. Yes, I think so, even though I hate to see it happen.
 
I just can't see that in this case. That seems like a really big leap to take.
The point is, I saw what happened after 9/11. We still have a Patriot Act, we still have to get a Freedom Pat Down every time we fly. I'm not a believer there is a New World Order conspiracy here, this is human nature. When emotional after an attack, over and over you see people gladly trading liberty for the illusion of safety. It's always under the guise of "this time, it's okay." or "Well, if it might help catch a terrorist, then it's okay. They surely wouldn't use it against regular people." Of course they will. This is also human nature.
1) They knocked, did not crash door, did not point weapons at the individuals in the house
I saw guns pointing in several photos. Plenty of those interviewed specifically described having weapons pointed at them.
2) No one was manhandled or cuffed - the closest to physical contact was one officer putting the first person's arms back up, and the weapon patdowns once the folks were away from the house.
Tell that to the guy who was stripped naked, manhandled, and cuffed!
3) Six minutes is a LONG time - there was no urgency evident on the part of the cops, just prudent removal of a single person at a time from the house. They weren't handling this roughly or adding to the climate of fear that was certainly already present.
Again, not saying they screwed up royally, just that this is not allowable under the laws of the land. These citizens were not suspected for terrorism.
4) We have NO idea about the reason this specific house was targeted - was there a tip, a credible threat? Were the officers concerned the folks in the house might be in danger from the nearby suspect? We don't know, and making assumptions is a lousy idea in the best of times.
This specific house? I saw this happening in house after house.
Would this be appropriate in a search for a simple felon? I don't think so.

Was this appropriate when trying to capture a terrorist/bomber/multiple murderer. Yes, I think so, even though I hate to see it happen.
Terrorist is a flexible word. This is what worries me gravely.
 
I was always under the impression exigent circumstances still required probable cause to execute under. Random door-to-door searches would seem to stretch the realm. I could be wrong.
 
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Here's a transcript about exigent circumstances and REP- reasonable expectation of privacy. Here's a little bit of it:

Miller: I believe you mentioned three exigencies or three exigent circumstances that might excuse the need for a warrant.

Solari: Right. There are three re-occurring types of exigencies which allow police officers to make warrantless entries into REP areas. One occurs when an officer has probable cause to believe that the time it would take to go get a warrant would result in the destruction of the evidence. The second is when officers in hot pursuit of a fleeing felon chases that felon into a REP area. The third is when the officer needs to enter a home to save somebody from harm.

Miller: Well, let’s talk about hot pursuit. That sounds pretty interesting. When can an officer pursue someone into a REP area?

Solari: There are three requirements. First the officer needs probable cause to believe that a serious crime has been committed and that the person who is running away committed it.

Miller: And, this is the same probable cause standard we discussed earlier; that is, information that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and the suspect committed it.

Solari: Yes, but remember what the officer’s doing in a hot pursuit chase. He’s chasing the suspect into a REP area, like the sanctity of somebody’s home. Therefore, the Supreme Court requires the officer to have PC that the suspect committed a serious offense. What exactly is a serious offense hasn’t exactly been defined by the Supreme Court; however, I think it’s safe to say that a felony should suffice as a serious offense. Additionally, misdemeanor crimes of violence are probably also good enough. For example, an officer can enter a home if he has probable cause to believe a crime of family violence has been committed.

Miller: So the officer must have probable cause that the fleeing suspect committed a serious crime. What’s the second requirement?

Solari: The second, the pursuit of the suspect has to begin from a public place. We see these hot pursuits all the time on TV. The police begin chasing a suspect on a public street. The officers have probable cause that the suspect committed a serious crime and they end up chasing him into someone’s home.

Miller: And you’re telling me it’s reasonable to chase that suspect into a REP area like somebody’s house.

Solari: Well sure. The courts have held that the suspect can not defeat an arrest which started in a public place by ducking into a private place.

Miller: I guess that makes sense. Does the public place always mean public property?

Solari: No. Now, the Supreme Court defines public place for purposes of hot pursuit in terms of REP - reasonable expectation of privacy. For example, in the case of United States v. Santana, the police had probable cause to believe that the suspect had distributed narcotics our of her home. They drove by the suspect’s home, saw the suspect standing in the doorway of her home, stopped, and shouted “police”. The suspect retreated from the doorway into her house and the police chased her inside. The court held that entering that suspect’s house was justified as hot pursuit. The door frame of the suspect’s house was a public place, meaning that it was a place where the suspect was exposed to public view, and where the public could come.

Miller: Okay, so its probable cause to believe the suspect committed a serious crime; and second, the pursuit must begin from a public place.

Solari: Right.

Miller: There’s one more requirement, right?

Solari: Yes. Now think about a hot pursuit you’ve seen on TV. The chase that you watch is immediate and is continuous. That’s the third requirement. So, for example, the officer has probable cause to believe the suspect has committed or is committing a serious offense, the officer immediately and continually chases the suspect into that REP area. So, by that I mean the officer doesn’t stop for a coffee break on the way or something.

Miller: Well, I guess that makes sense. What if the officer loses sight of the fleeing suspect?

Solari: Well it’s not necessary that the officers continually have the suspect in sight. There are cases where the suspect managed to enter a house without being seen. The officer can still enter that REP area, the house for instance, if the officer has probable cause that the suspect went inside. So, imagine a police officer chasing a suspect, the suspect goes around the corner and the officer momentarily loses sight of the suspect; however, witnesses standing right there on the corner pointing at 123 Main Street and shouting to the officer “he went in there.” That should be enough to establish probable cause that the suspect fled into 123 Main Street.
 
The point is, I saw what happened after 9/11. We still have a Patriot Act, we still have to get a Freedom Pat Down every time we fly. I'm not a believer there is a New World Order conspiracy here, this is human nature. When emotional after an attack, over and over you see people gladly trading liberty for the illusion of safety. It's always under the guise of "this time, it's okay." or "Well, if it might help catch a terrorist, then it's okay. They surely wouldn't use it against regular people." Of course they will. This is also human nature.

Chip, you and I see nearly 100% eye to eye on most everything that goes on in this politically motivated world, I think the disconnect over this issue for me, is coming from my background and training.

I totally get where you are coming from, and what might cause you to think that way, but personally, I just don't see this particular search event causing any lasting damage to liberty. I can certainly see the strong possibility of changes for good on how police conduct these procedures, but no trampling of rights or forced searches.

Either one of us could potentially be right, it's hard to tell what the long term may be. Politics are a slippery slope that can swing wildly. I just hope I'm right. ;)

Since the word is getting tossed around, I just want to define what terrorist means to me personally. To me a terrorist is simply a person who terrorizes or frightens others. The Boston Bombers fit that definition, but so does Charles Manson. Most would class him as a murderer, but to me personally he is also a terrorist.

I don't care for the use of the word terrorist as a racial implication and don't use it that way myself.
 
There are some that would say "terrorist is a fancy word for Muslim." Granted, that's an ignorant person's example, but it is the sheer flexibility of application that worries me about circumventing the law of the land when it applies to terrorism*. There are a lot of these videos, I've only seen 30-40 minutes of footage. I'm sure all wasn't filmed, either. Just in the video I posted, the 4th was trampled on. What's most worrisome is We the People are usually perfectly cooperative.

Of course, this is all coming from a guy with a steel Bill of Rights card in my wallet that stops every metal detector I walk through. The 4th is printed in red. :)
 
There are some that would say "terrorist is a fancy word for Muslim." Granted, that's an ignorant person's example, but it is the sheer flexibility of application that worries me about circumventing the law of the land when it applies to terrorism*.

True, some people wield that word as a mighty broad paint brush to gloss over some bull crap.

Of course, this is all coming from a guy with a steel Bill of Rights card in my wallet that stops every metal detector I walk through. The 4th is printed in red. :)

This is why we are friends and I love you. :)
 
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Chip, you and I see nearly 100% eye to eye on most everything that goes on in this politically motivated world, I think the disconnect over this issue for me, is coming from my background and training.

I think that's the same for me too. Law enforcement has been part of my life so I see the grey area all of the time.


Either one of us could potentially be right, it's hard to tell what the long term may be. Politics are a slippery slope that can swing wildly. I just hope I'm right. ;)

Yup yup! I also see both sides and am inclined to lean on the same side as Chip, this is that grey area.. the undefined line in the sand.
If they take this any further and begin to operate under these circumstances on a regular basis and start utilizing excuses to do so... you better believe that I will be fighting back.

One thing that makes me wonder is if people did actually refuse and it just wasn't documented. If that's the case then I'd be even less concerned; imo there's just not enough information without being there and witnessing how they operated.
 
Can anyone confirm or deny the rumors that some houses had property, specifically guns, confiscated during these searches. I think that would go beyond the reason for the exigent circumstance if it did happen.

D80
 
Can anyone confirm or deny the rumors that some houses had property, specifically guns, confiscated during these searches. I think that would go beyond the reason for the exigent circumstance if it did happen.

D80

That is, so far, a rumor. I talked to a contact at the Dept of Homeland Security yesterday and it came up during the discussion. He said those rumors have been started by gun control combatants, but so far there has been no proof.

There are a few stories floating around, but the stories seem to break apart once you start questioning the details.

I wish the gun control combatants would not use made up stories like that. I personally don't want any of this new gun legislation to pass, and using BS stories cheapens the argument.
 
I friggin' LAMBASTE posters on gun forums who use BS pro-gun arguments, bad info and false motivational posters. We have facts, data and history on our side, there is ZERO reason to lie.

AFAIK, no property was taken by police from civilian homes. I hadn't heard that, and I spend a lot of my time on places it would have come up.
 
I friggin' LAMBASTE posters on gun forums who use BS pro-gun arguments, bad info and false motivational posters. We have facts, data and history on our side, there is ZERO reason to lie.

AFAIK, no property was taken by police from civilian homes. I hadn't heard that, and I spend a lot of my time on places it would have come up.

I agree 100%.

The is ZERO reason for pro-gun people to lie. The facts and figures already support what we a championing for, we don't need to muddy the water with falsehoods, the truth will out.
 
I read this on Reddit yesterday, I think. I'm copying on my iPad, hopefully I'll catch all the F words...

To the middle age man that followed me to my car and called me a fricking terrorist, to go back to where I came from, kill all my kind, go to hell, and when I said excuse me in confusion continued to call me a towel head *** and to go cover myself and do us all a favor and blow myself up... I literally was just walking to my car after getting a coffee... just living my life as usual. I was kind of sleepy after a casual meeting at work. Did I look at you the wrong way? So sorry I offended you, perhaps I took too much splenda.
You ruined my day with your rude ignorant rant. You gave me anxiety now I wake up having anxiety attacks. Do you think assaulting an incredibly small female 1/3rd your size and following her makes you an example for man and woman kind? If I hadn't threatened to call the police would you have assaulted me? You certainly looked like you were going to try. You were marching towards me with such rage... what did I do to you? Do you feel better knowing I won't feel safe walking alone again for a very long time? That I'll triple check my locks? That I'll live in fear of every day things until I recover from your undeserved rage? How does it make you feel that as a petite female I already know I'm vulnerable and you just added 30 extra reasons for me to panic all time.
And not to stereotype myself one way or another I was dress in a cream lace maxi dress and an adorable floppy hat. I might as well have been going to church. That doesn't really scream terrorist on sight to me...
You know what pisses me off the most is I probably hate extremist Muslims more than you. I'd line them up and punch them all in the mouth if I could. Their thinking is just so polluted with ideas of a religion they have turned on its head to perpetuate their stupid and ignorant ideas and to oppress people. Don't even get me started on those extremists that use the religion to oppress women. The evil things I want to do to them...
Anyway Sir I got distracted thinking about religion and extremist and gender and all that good stuff. I want to let you know I don't hate you, I don't even not like you, I'm just fricking terrified of you. Thanks for that.
You made me feel like I did something wrong for just existing and that's the most unfair part.
You should be ashamed of yourself and you know... although I didn't get a chance to say anything to you other than I was calling the police I wish I had told you the next time you yell at someone or pick a fight at least pick on someone your own size you jerk! You had at least a foot or a bit more on me and outweighed me by at least 100 pounds. What the hell is anyone supposed to do in that situation anyway? You could have kicked my ass and you probably could have killed me with fairly minimal effort. I hope that makes you feel good about yourself.
I hope this anxiety fades fast so I can move on with my life. I hope I succeed in doing all the incredible things I have set out to do in my life and you remain a disgusting blemish on otherwise generally wonderful humanity. I'm hoping someone snuffs out your ignorance with some enlightening knowledge, or something dramatic shakes your worldview. Or you get some terrible karma and at least spill some hot coffee on yourself.
TL;DR: small female got called a terrorist for no reason, now have PTSD (edit: some anxiety)
EDIT: I don't actually have PTSD, probably just some mild anxiety. I got a little dramatic because this is off my chest? I thought PTSD was used to describe symptoms for a wide variety of things. Clearly was mistaken. I thought this was a safe place to whine and get things off my chest no matter now silly and minuscule or large and serious. I'm seriously sorry to those I offended. I was just ranting.
For those of you that have offered support and suggestions on how to help deal and move on, you're all amazing. Seriously. Just getting it off my chest made me feel a bit better, but the support is really awesome and totally helping me feel much better much faster so seriously Thank you!
 
I wish I had a Muslim friend so I could understand that culture better. I feel bad for her.
 
I bet it would SUCK being a muslim in the west, but the Sikhs are who I feel most sorry for. They wear turbans and look more stereotypical muslim than muslims to the ignorant. Which most people are.

Boston-martial-law10b.jpg

What bugs me the most about this whole thing is, I LIKE cops, and this isn't the police I grew up with.
 
To run into people who place so little value in their own privacy & constitutional rights that they cannot understand, or care why others may value theirs.
I'm used to being photographed or videoed a hundred times a day at stoplights, shopping, walking down the street, with decade old technology.
Wonder what going outside will be like in another decade.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Brunc...hrough-the-Google-glass/Article1-1046944.aspx
Surprised nobody has mentioned CISPA
 
Chip, I think I believe the cops, in this situation, wanted to get the bad guy and prevent more deaths, no matter what. I don't think there are ulterior motives.
 
20 years we wouldn't be having an online convo about this, my cell phone wouldn't get pinged once a minute so someone else somewhere would know my personal gps. There would be no cameras and rapid transfer of information and facial recognition software via shopping as we have today. It happened so quickly. 20 years ago they would have gotten away with it a little longer. Prayers for all those involved.
 
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