• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Changes to Washington, DC Schools... what do you think?

Hypancistrus

New member
Michelle Rhee tackles classroom challenges in DC

As a teacher, I read this article with a whole mix of feelings going on in my gut.

This past year I was forced to chose a new school. The school I was leaving was a mid-high affluence community with generally high-performing students. I could have gone to a school similar to it, but instead, I chose a school in my own neighborhood-- a neighborhood that traditionally struggles with maintaining passing test scores, keeping qualified teachers and improving graduation rates.

Being a product of these same schools myself, and a current resident of the area, I felt like I had a better than average understanding of the school populations and community life, in addition to a vested interest in making sure that these schools get and keep good teachers.

What I have discovered since arriving at this school is that the way I run my classroom is apparently a shock to the parents and students. I do not allow my students to have infinite chances to make up work missed while they were present and (supposedly) working in the room. I do not bump 69% to 70%. I do not give last minute extra credit-- if you want the higher grade, you have to earn the higher grade. I give homework and demand that it be completed on time for the next class-- if it is not, you don't get to make it up. In short, I am trying to hold my students accountable for their performance and choices in the classroom the same way that real life will hold them accountable for their performance and choices.

I have had more angry parents call this year than any year prior. I have had more students complain, cry, walk out and use foul language to describe me than any year prior. I have a class that has made me cry several times, that I despair ever being able to reach (27 total students, 14 of whom have a diagnosed learning disorder or other condition covered under special education services) and who on a day to day basis drive me completely crazy! I refuse to give up on them, but damn, it gets harder every day to find that reason to keep going when everyone else is telling me to accept the situation for what it is and move on with my life.

It can be frustrating at times because I look around me at other teachers in my building and they are not getting angry parents calling them up. They don't attempt to contact parents, don't ask them to be involved, don't give homework (because no one does it anyway), don't grade papers or stay after to help students, and they curve tests and quizzes by ridiculous amounts. So I struggle to maintain high standards that often aren't mirrored in other areas, and yet I get paid on the same scale as those taking the easy road. I tend to be an intrinsically motivated person, which is the only reason I keep going many days.

So there is a part of me that says "Hell yeah!" to this article.

On the other hand, I can also understand how teachers unions are a little leery of the proposed changes. Is there a way to fairly and accurately assess the job that a single teacher is doing in a classroom when every teachers class or classes are completely and totally different? Is that feasible? There are few professions in which an adult workers performance is so inescapably tied to the performance of not just one or two, but dozens of other individuals... how do you measure that persons value as a worker without penalizing them for things beyond their control?

In short there were points I agreed with. I think there are a lot of talented young teachers that get thrust into schools like mine, with a challenging group of students, and burn out from the lack of support for meeting those challenges. I myself feel like I, as a fifth year teacher, need additional support in meeting the demands of this classroom, but somedays it feels like the people above me are in no condition to provide that support because they were chosen for their jobs out of convenience or political position rather than merit.

I would love to hear other people's opinions on this (especially other teachers) so please share!
 
I don't have any good answers, but there are 7 teachers in my immediate family, and I've seen them all struggle with similar issues.. I don't know how you guys do it. My hat's off to you all for sure.
 
Let me just say this... I deal with lots of teachers. I have 9 girls in our dorm... at least 8 different teachers for them. My two girls go to school too... so that means at least 10 teachers that I have to deal with yearly (more because some of them switch classes and all).

Some of these teachers are GREAT! They get back to me when I have a concern and they're on the ball with my kids.

Others... I never hear from them no matter how many times I call and leave messages or send notes with my kids.

I don't have any answers either... but I do know that there are teachers that absolutely STINK at their jobs. I also know that there are teachers that work their buts off and don't get adequate compensation for their work. I know teachers that tackle a difficult situation and I know teachers that ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance. Something needs to be done with those (teachers and faculty) that consistently fail (not only grade-wise) their students AND not have a union to hide behind to protect their jobs. Otherwise, nothing will ever change. That article has a great quote...
"The U.S. spends more per pupil on elementary and high school education than most developed nations. Yet it is behind most of them in the math and science abilities of its children. Young Americans today are less likely than their parents were to finish high school. This is an issue that is warping the nation's economy and security, and the causes are not as mysterious as they seem. The biggest problem with U.S. public schools is ineffective teaching, according to decades of research."
I agree and disagree with the last sentence. Not only do we have ineffective teachers, but we also reward or protect students that put forth no effort. One of my girls who has "moved on" KNOWS that she'll graduate BECAUSE she has an IEP (Individual Education Plan) which protects her from bad grades. I've fought this and tried to get her to be more accountable for her grades, but without the fear of "failure," she just wasn't going to do what needed to be done - hiding behind supposed learning disabilities and all. She'll graduate and then looks to go on to college -- thinking that her lack of effort will hold up there as well.

One of my dearest friends is a teacher in Hawaii. She told me of an instance where a parent walked in and berated her for failing her student. She told that parent that her child was afforded many opportunities to come up with a passing grade and did not fulfill any of them. So she gave that student an F. The parent went to the principal and guess who the principal supported? THE PARENT!

How are the good teachers, like my friend, supposed to get anywhere with our students when they aren't supported for doing their jobs?

We need to get back to basics. If a teacher or faculty member stinks, they need to be replaced. If a teacher or faculty member excels, they need to be adequately compensated. Just like in the "real" world.

Hypancistrus... I have no idea what kind of teacher you are... but if you are as passionate about teaching as you are about your corn/fish hobby... and as intelligent as your words here have always portrayed you, then I'm sure you are a GREAT teacher and I offer you my highest praise.
 
I'm sorry that you get flak from angry parents, they should realize you are doing it because you want the students to excel... it's a form of "tough love". Too bad so many parents have this "My little Jimmy is an angel and can do no wrong" mentality, and I'm sure when they see good grades in a report card in every class except yours they are quick to blame you instead of seeing the other teachers as the ones who are the problem. I think more teachers should be like you... If teachers and parents let these students slide all through their school life, reality is going to be a big slap in the face for them when they get out there looking for jobs and stuff. I actually wish I had had more teachers like you when I was in school, I feel I could have done a much better job living up to my potential if I had someone to give a well placed swift kick in the rear when needed. I am actually thinking of going back to school now, I regret not applying myself more when I first went to college. What a waste... maybe I just needed to mature a little and learn a bit at the school of hard knocks before I was ready... anyway I wish you luck, not a teacher either but I can't think of many careers as unselfish and giving as yours...
 
I didn't read the article yet, but I read some of the comments . . .

"The biggest problem with U.S. public schools is ineffective teaching, according to decades of research."
Unfortunately, I completely disagree 100% with this quote. It should read "The biggest problem with U.S. public schools is the ineffective accountability afforded our youngest generations from society and parents, according to decades of in-school observation." Nothing will be fixed until parents take responsibility for their children. Teachers are not failing, parents are. Good, hard-working, diligent, ethical kids survive, learn and pass school (life) regardless of good or poor teachers.

How are the good teachers, like my friend, supposed to get anywhere with our students when they aren't supported for doing their jobs?
Good question!

We need to get back to basics. If a teacher or faculty member stinks, they need to be replaced. If a teacher or faculty member excels, they need to be adequately compensated. Just like in the "real" world.
Who decides they stink? I get lots of complaints from parents (Was even told I needed to be slapped in the face once!) for holding high expectations in my classroom. If the parents are deciding, I guess I'm fired. School board decides? Right! How about Administration? There are just as many "bad" Administrators as there are bad teachers.

For lack of a better expression, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." Right now, there's a lot of horses walking through the front door refusing to drink . . . regardless of whether it's from a clean or dirty water trough. (Added that last bit cause I admit there are some cruddy teachers.) Until society and parents put the work back in work for their children, teacher's hands are tied, almost literally. People feel they are entitled to a free ride, and that extends to skating through school.

D80
 
I agree with you on many points, Brent. Both parents (hence the necessity for MY job) and teachers are failing our kids.

As for who decides who is a good teacher or not... good question. Certainly NOT the parent who confronted my friend for failing their child. But also NOT anyone associated with the Teacher's Union that seems to protect the good and the bad.
 
It should read "The biggest problem with U.S. public schools is the ineffective accountability afforded our youngest generations from society and parents, according to decades of in-school observation." Nothing will be fixed until parents take responsibility for their children. Teachers are not failing, parents are. Good, hard-working, diligent, ethical kids survive, learn and pass school (life) regardless of good or poor teachers.

From a parent's side I completely agree with this. The entire time my daughter was in the public school system we saw the same small group of parents at every meeting or school function that did not involve sports or club activities. This was the same in grade, middle, and high school. There is a big lack of involvement by parents in the learning aspect of school.
Parents would be surprised when their student was failing?! At that point they panic and want something done. How did they not know their kid's grades were dropping before they got a failure notice or a counciling session request? One word, inattention. You could just tell that they had no idea what the kid's grades were all along and the kid didn't say anything. They seem to want the teachers to teach values that they failed to give their kids and it's just not their job.
My wife sat in a few classes where the students were having a hard time and two of the teachers were doing a fine job, just tougher than the others. It was the students' problems in those cases, the teachers weren't as personable or likeable as others. To that I said "Tough crap, suck it up and learn what you need to learn". We did have an incidence of a very lazy teacher not even trying to reach or help the kids. I believe he still teaches there. We were able to get my daughter in another class that was taught better, not easier, better.
Overall I think the teachers try to do a good job on their end. I just don't think most of the kids are taught the need or desire to learn by their parents. It's gotta suck standing there trying to teach something when half of the class doesn't care or pay attention.

Some of our teachers here feel shackled by the Standards Of Learning requirements and feel they must plan their entire curriculum towards getting the kids to have a good grade on the SOL tests, but that's another discussion.
 
Interesting topic. And Hyp hon I have spoken to your for hours about your kids and the problems associated with them...and I understand the struggles you face. A woman like this somewhat scares me. Yes it would be great to rid our school systems of teachers that slack, BUT who decides who is slacking. Judging as this woman proposes based upon test scores is rediculous. First of all, My best teacher in HS was Dr. Blake. I hated him...HA! He was tough. Like you, he did not allow late work, extra credit was extra hard and really work. You had to work hard in his class and Very very few of us got amazing grades. Why? Because it was a challenge! So our test scores were not steller all the time, but I learned more and it stuck with me years later. He was the one who prepared me most for college and I wish I could have had 7 teachers just like him! BUT would he have been fired just because we would not always score well?
And what about teachers who teach lower level classes or special ed groups. Would their raises or even their job be based only on the test scores of students who can't possibly be compaired to honors classes?
And yeah the big problem really is NOT teachers. Most teachers (even the slackers) start out wanting to the best for their students...that is why teaching called to them. So they were burned out. By what? Lack of admin support? maybe. Lack of funding? maybe too. BUT mainly it's the lack of parental participation and butt-kicking. Parents should NEVER believe teens who are inclined to lie over teachers who are just doing their job. I would look into it before just assuming anything. *sigh* It is the decline in parental involvement and realism that bothers me most.
Anyway...my rambling two cents for ya.
 
Wow, lot's of good comments here. I have more to say on this, but I'm exhausted after watching my Ravens beat up on the Redskins. :dancer: More tomorrow!
 
"The biggest problem with U.S. public schools is ineffective teaching, according to decades of research."

Everyone that disagrees with that, IMO, is completely wrong. Notice it doesn't say "ineffective teachers" - is says "ineffective teaching." Let's break that down. "Ineffective" means " "not producing an intended effect" or "not capable of performing efficiently or as expected." "Teaching" is basically the "act of imparting knowledge."

Are the kids learning? No, and I think we can all agree with that. The kids aren't getting the knowledge. Whether the teachers are good or bad, whether is is due to the system or not, whether it is because the kids are lazy or not, whether it is because parents aren't doing their job or not - none of that matters. The kids are not getting the knowledge: it isn't becoming part of their daily thinking patterns. NOW, let's pretend the intended effect is greater knowledge in the part of the students. If that is the intended effect, and it is not happening, then, BY DEFINITION, we do have ineffective teaching in these united states. The thing to argue is the CAUSE of the problem. It may be the teachers or the parents, but the cause does not negate the fact of the problem - our intent of educating the students is not be made.

Therefor, if you disagree with the above statement, then you are saying there is no problem. You are saying the students are learning - or that teaching is not intended to educate - and we DO have an effective system. I'll respect that opinion, but I will also strongly disagree.

On another note, those that know their history in this country are also aware that literacy decreased with the advent of the public school system in these united states. Teaching and teachers may deal with trying to educate kids, but the public school system was never designed for such. If it were, bayonets would have not been required to FORCE the first students/parents to utilize the system, would it? As someone that knows what our education system was modeled after- and what the goal of that model system actually concerned - I'm one that would be happiest if the public school system - as it currently exists - would be completely abolished. The system is broken and it wasn't designed for the stated purposes, anyway, so I don't believe it can be fixed. It must be severely altered and improved. The current system must be destroyed. I don't just mean better pay for the best teachers (they deserve that under any system!) or more after-school parent involvement (that is part the definition of "parent" to me); I mean a complete restructuring from the ground up. Sure, I don't know what would be better exactly (I don't pretend to), but the current system is WRONG. It won't be RIGHT no matter how much money is thrown at it. Insanity is doing the same thing a million times and expecting a different result each time. Trying to repair such a broken system with MINOR fixes is insanity.

Any system that teaches to the lowest without really challenging them instead of challenging the highest to their greatest potential is doomed to force this country to have an education only as low as the slowest student can be given (not earned).
KJ
 
First let me say that KJUN, I thought your post was fantabulous. I agree strongly that ineffective TEACHING is a huge problem. I also think that we are ineffective in teaching our teachers, as undergrads and later on.

I was lucky (and unlucky) in that I started teaching with a Bachelor of Science degree prior to taking even a single education credit. While this meant I was in a "sink or swim" situation, it also meant I had to rely on myself, my wits and my fellow teachers to get me through my first year of teaching. I have since gone back and done a Master of Arts in Teaching degree through a program for people changing career fields. What I found to be true of 80% of my classes is that what they tell you in class is theoretical BS that will not work for 9 out of 10 situations you'd find yourself in. They teach theories, and nowhere in those theories is anything about classroom management, behavior management, setting up your classroom, or anything else useful or relevant.

We basically give our new, young teachers absolutely no real weapons to take them through their first year, and once they are in, the support system is shoddy as Hell... they are, for the most part, set up to fail. They end up in the worst schools with nothing to help them survive... so they quit. So in schools where the most help is needed, turnover is insanely high and ability level of teachers very low.

That being said, I want to address KJUN's question and that is causes for kids not learning.

Teachers today are better educated than they have EVER been. The average teacher has at least a bachelor's degree and then some, most have a masters. We attend workshops, meetings, and professional development activities. There are still crap teachers... and lots of room to improve in HOW we teach our teachers... but I think the real problem lies in the mentality that many of today's student brings to the classroom.

In 5 years of teaching, I have noticed that many of the students who do not do well in my class have a few things in common. First being a belief that they are superior, worthy, and wonderful human beings no matter how they behave, no matter what grades they earn, and no matter how much trouble they find themselves in. No matter what, these students believe firmly that they are wonderful perfect people who are never at fault, ever, and should be given EVERYTHING because of the fact that they are wonderful perfect people.

In essence, these students have a sense of entitlement about them that borders on arrogance, coupled with a complete and utter lack of personal responsibility of any type or amount.

Where do they get this from??

They get this from parents who have taken the idea that we should make sure our children know they are valued and loved and run with it to far extremes. These children have come to believe that they not only deserve to have expensive things handed to them, but are ENTITLED to this. They have a state of the art cell phone with unlimited text messaging, an iPod or mp3 player, high end shoes and $120 jeans, but they can't be bothered to bring a pencil or notebook to class. And when they don't have those materials, it is expected that I provide them. If I don't, clearly it is my fault they do not do well in class!

So I ask you... since when have designer jeans and personal electronic entertainment devices been considered back-to-school must haves? You see more commercials for these things in August than you do for notebooks, pens and backpacks!

My next question... why would an 11 year old need their own cell phone? Why, for that matter, would a 14 year old need their own cell phone?? When are they ever going to be away from a place in which they could secure use of a phone in an emergency situation, in addition to assistance from a responsible adult (who would probably have their own cell phone)?

Since when is it a child's RIGHT to drive at the age of 15 and 9 months and not a carefully evaluated privilege for parents to dole out to deserving teenagers?

Since when do children not only need to have their own stereo, TV and DVD player in their room, but also their own COMPUTER?! What ever happened to housing these things in the FAMILY room and having it be a FAMILY (read-- parents!) decision as to what to watch and when?

The concept of a person having to EARN extras like iPod's and driving privileges is a completely foreign concept to many of my students! And their parents wouldn't dare take these privileges away from them, or ask them to earn them, because then they pout, cross their arms and sneer that their parents clearly don't love them as much as Danielle's parents because SHE has a cell phone and an iPod touch!

My own children will not carry cell phones until the point that I allow them to drive somewhere farther than the local grocery store, because if they are younger than that they should always be with a responsible adult who themselves will have a cell phone, or at the very least be in a controlled enviroment (movie theater) in which a land line will be available in an emergency. If they are not, then I am clearly not doing my job as a parent in setting boundaries and rules of the household that WILL be followed.

Even once they begin driving, it will not be THEIR cell phone, but MY cell phone that I ALLOW them to use when they are going out to contact me in the event of a problem. It will not be used to text friends during school or call buddies at night. Children and teenagers are not adults and do not have the RIGHT to have and use adult equipment whenever they want! You earn that right when you get a job and earn money and become a valuable member of the adult society. Those of you who are my age or older probably made it all the way through high school without a cell phone OR an mp3 player. Imagine that!

As for personal responsibility, like I said, that has gone the way of the dodo. If a student doesn't have his or her homework, it's my fault for not reminding them. I have had parents ask me to email them the homework assignment every night (I refuse) or to call and let them know when Johnny doesn't turn a homework or classwork in (also refused). If you are 15 years old and don't feel compelled to turn in work to earn your grade, I am NOT going to babysit you and hold your hand through the process. It is time to grow up, to sever the umbilical cord and become the young adult you should be.

Students who do not do well on tests, either because they don't know how to study for tests, or cannot be bothered to study, blame their failure on some mystical "test anxiety."

Students who perform poorly on class assignments "don't get it," or "can't understand it," and I "wouldn't help them" to understand it (read: I refuse to do their work for them... when a student asks me "What does X mean?" I point them to the dictionary... when a student asks for a calculator to multiply 23 times 1000 I refuse and point to pencil and paper while encouraging them to THINK instead of type). But clearly, also my fault... for daring to believe that my students can be more than mindless drones with no common sense and an utter dependance on machines.

Again, what happened to good old fashioned "What I'm doing isn't working so I'll work harder?" Hard work?! :idea:

I believe this all comes back to parents. It's time to shut off this gag-reflex mama bear/ baby bear syndrome we have going as a society (I am speaking only on the US here) and ask ourselves "Are we really doing our children a favor by protecting them from the consequences of their actions? Are we doing them a favor by fighting tooth and nail to get them labelled as special education students because they have "ADHD" and cannot sit still? Are we helping them when we take them out of classes that are challenging and put them into classes where they can breeze through? Are we helping them when we protect them from teachers, peers and others with whom they "don't get along well?" Are we helping them when we put them on plans that allow them to have extra time and do-overs as often as they want, whenever they want, for whatever reason? Are we helping them when we don't hold them accountable for being on time to school and class, or for completing their homework assignments in a timely and regular fashion? Are we helping them when we give them everything under the sun and don't ask them to do a damn thing other than exist to earn these gifts? I think the answer to that is NO!

To summarize, I believe we are creating a generation of children who know nothing about the value of hard work, who know nothing about delayed gratification or prioritizing what is needed over what is desired. I believe that this generation will be utterly unprepared for the real world and their place in it.

There are a lot of complex things going on in education today, but when I really sit down and think about the difference between older generations of people and the ones currently in the public school system now, this is what I keep coming back to.
 
Not sure how many have read this before, but it applies. Would dentists not be practicing medicine in this scenario? You can attempt to teach me absolutely any way you see fit, with any "new" or old strategy you prefer. The plain and simple fact is that until the student engages in that activity, there is absolutely no system and/or strategy that will be entirely effective. To place that blame on the teacher is ridiculous.

Educated people are educated because they made the choice to learn. Unfortunately, society and parents are allowing juvenile, immature, young minds make the decision that they don't need to learn.

It's sad.
D80
 
Back
Top