• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Combining Lavender with Caramel?

I agree, I think mixing Caramel, Lavender and Anery A is a big mistake. I mean HUGE!! You never know what morph you are looking at when they hatch. :shrugs: :crazy02: :) I prize my Lavenders that are not homo or het for Anery A. They are very rare these days.

They all seem to be yanking and pulling at different directions in some ways and at the same direction in other ways. I know some Lavenders have yellow pigment, but is it the main yellow, or a secondary yellow pigment that shows up. It seems as if Lavender is trying to take yellow away while Caramel is trying to add it, and then Anery A is trying to cover up everything with black. I don’t know what the heck Anery B is doing, but they don’t help much in any of the mixes either.

It is like combining any of the hypo group. There are phenotype differences, but they are so slight, it leaves huge questions as to what genotype we are looking at. The most likely only good reason to mix any Anery Group or Hypo Group together is the possibility of a cool looking phenotype when combined with a third genotype.

We are compartmentalizing and grouping by the manner in which the genes affect the colors and patterns. The Anery Group an Hypo Group affect the colors of corns in similar ways, but not in the exact same way. I guess we could start a Pattern Group, and put Striped, Motley and Bloods in that group. I am sure that we could probably add a few more to the pattern group, like Banded for instance. Mixing them together will be and is just as confusing as the mixing within other groups. Striped Bloods, Motley Bloods, Striped/Motleys phenotypes are always in question.

I agree, that the Anery A gene adds melanin in a big way. Many people disagree, but it is almost like the Caramel gene that adds yellow. The Anery A gene adds Black. It does seem to take red away too, like Caramel. Do they overlay the red, take it away or replace it?

In the end, they are all simple recessive genes, or so we think. I think the Lavender gene is a very complicated recessive gene. We don’t need to group any of them together really, because they are distinct genotypes, but mixing similar groups together has had very few cool morphs created with them. On the other hand, mixing morphs of different groups have created some of the most beautiful and desirable morphs of corns that we have today.

Amel seems to be in its own group all by itself. It is a great combo with all of the other morphs, except for perhaps the Hypo Group.
 
ecreipeoj said:
We don’t need to group any of them together really, because they are distinct genotypes, but mixing similar groups together has had very few cool morphs created with them.

Oh, I don't know about that...... ;)
 
Do any of you wish you could be a fly on the wall in Rich's super secret project room?

If we only knew! When the time is right, I am sure he will reveal his "Lavender Butter Motley Bloodred or Charcoal Striped Bloodred Butter or what ever perfect mix he came up with his genius.
 
Lol!

Indeed Joe, I was thinking much on the same wavelength as you! You can tell he's got something up his sleeve but doesn't want to give any of that top secret stuff out, just yet!

Keep up the good work, Rich...we'll all be not so patiently awaiting...hehe

Quigs
 
Although this is totally off topic to the original question, I'd like your thoughts on this:

If we start to name morphs as Anery A. B, C, D etc.. Hypo A, B, C, D etc... are we being very accurate?

Is it actually possible to have a corn snake which is homozygous for more than one type of anery for example? If so, would that not mean one or the other is technically not a true anery?

Take albinos for example. In many reptiles there is tyrosinase positive and negative. It is an impossibility to have a snake which is homozygous for both types. Quite simply, one can produce tyrosinase, and one can't.

In leopard geckos, there are 4 types of albinos I believe, all of which are incompatible. Does anyone know if any of them are homozygous for more than one type? That is a question, I really don't know the answer to that.

The thing is, if a corn snake is anerythristic, than technically the red pigment has been taken away. Therefore, there should only be one form of true anerythrism. Anything else is different - if they are incompatible and produce snakes with varying looks, than surely it means there is something more than taking away red pigment?

Also, back to Rich's point. Can I ask, Anery A - you say that they have an overlaying layer of melanin. How do you know? I'm not trying to catch you out, I'd just like to know your thoughts behind it as I really don't have a clue.

What about the possibilites of axanthic? Is anyone working with a line? I know Anery B has tendencies to not form any yellow, but I think there are a number of specimens with yellow.

All thoughts welcome.

Regards
Chris Jones
 
ecreipeoj said:
What does a Lavender Caramel look like any way. I bet he doesn't really have any. LOL

Well I honestly don't know. Suppose you did a project like this and got several entirely differently looking animals to hatch out that look nothing at all like anything else you had ever seen? Which one is the Lavender Caramel? Could be all of them, just variations. Or NONE of them, and just something new altogether..... :shrugs:
 
Hi Chris,
How is the book coming?

I think a corn can be homozygous for all of the known genotypes, because they are not compatible and genetically different. If you matched this hypothetical corn up with any of the single homo morphs this morph would be recreated in the offspring.

The question is, can the phenotypes be identifiable visually. There are Homo Anery A and Lavenders and Homo Anery A and Charcoal and I am sure there are Homo Anery A, Anery B, and Lavenders out there.. The problem is they can not be identified visually, with 100% certainty.

The labeling of the different similar groups of genes with letters, is only for discussion and to help keep things straight. It really doesn’t matter which Anery A group member is a true anerythristic corn. None of this really matters, except we are trying to identify compatible and non-compatible genes, so more reliable breeding results can be predicted.

I think in a very short time, we will have identified even more genetically incompatible hypo genes than we currently have. The only reason we need to know this is to reproduce more morphs of corns of a particular type. If you breed one of my Lava Corns with a Standard hypo you will not get a hypo in the bunch. Additionally, if you produce a homo Sunkissed/Standard Hypo Corn, the combined effect of the two genes does produce a different phenotype than the two hypo genes by themselves.

Well, I have to feed snakes instead of playing on the computer. I have been on this computer all day. I am sure the genetic experts will chime in and make this thread even more interesting.
 
eryx said:
The thing is, if a corn snake is anerythristic, than technically the red pigment has been taken away. Therefore, there should only be one form of true anerythrism.

...

Is it actually possible to have a corn snake which is homozygous for more than one type of anery for example? If so, would that not mean one or the other is technically not a true anery?
This drives me nuts, just like the search for "true T+ albino" corns. There are many ways a corn could be a "true" anerythristic. There is no single "true" anerythrism that somehow excludes the rest from being anerythristics.

Look at it this way... Say erythrin is formed by the combining of proteins A and B, and that reaction is catalyzed by protein C. These 3 proteins are produced each by their own gene.

A mutant on locus A that keeps protein A from being produced will create a legitimate form of anerythrism.

A mutant on locus B that keeps protein B from being produced will create a legitimate form of anerythrism.

A mutant on locus C that keeps protein C from being produced will create a legitimate form of anerythrism.

A pattern mutant that affects the pattern in such a way that there's no red areas would also be a true form of anerythrism.

All of them just as truly anerythristic as the next. :)

Take albinos for example. In many reptiles there is tyrosinase positive and negative. It is an impossibility to have a snake which is homozygous for both types.
Maybe you misunderstand the term homozygous. There could be lots of ways a mutant could cause what we would call "T+ amelanism," and if any of them are non-allelic to the amel we know today, then a corn could most certainly be homozygous for both T+ albino and T- albino at the same time.
 
Geez Joe, so self-effacing, I consider you to be one of the more astute amateur geneticists in the community. I totally agree that it is perfectly reasonable to have an Anery A/Anery B/Lavender 3x homozygous snake. Your observation that identifying those characteristics is relatively impossible, is the real conundrum. I desparately want to see caramel/lavenders, I think Rich is just toying with us, or maybe he is just bluffing. Super-secret project room...I want one of those.
I have been disappointed to learn that my lavender male is also homozygous for anery-a, from a breeding perspective, it complicates things immensely. However, he is one of my most prized animals, and is just gorgeous. Sometimes he turns this cotton candy pink color, mostly at night. I will try to get a picture. Do non-anery lavender corns develop yellow on their necks too? My anery/lav male has some light yellow on his anterior quarter. In addition he is het for amel. I love Corns, they are so fun, yet so dangerous...'cause they might make my girl leave me yet. I want to buy more corns, she wants me to buy more expensive breeds for investment purposes...*sigh*
 
eryx said:
Although this is totally off topic to the original question, I'd like your thoughts on this:

If we start to name morphs as Anery A. B, C, D etc.. Hypo A, B, C, D etc... are we being very accurate?

The custom in genetics is to give each mutant a unique name. Independent mutants that produce more or less similar phenotypes get more or less synonymous names. Albino, amelanistic, leucistic, white, pale, milky, etc.

Is it actually possible to have a corn snake which is homozygous for more than one type of anery for example? If so, would that not mean one or the other is technically not a true anery?

The true anery phenotype is caused by the mutant named anerythristic. Charcoal is not anerythristic. The two phenotypes just happen to look similar.

Take albinos for example. In many reptiles there is tyrosinase positive and negative. It is an impossibility to have a snake which is homozygous for both types. Quite simply, one can produce tyrosinase, and one can't.

And a snake that is both homozygous tyrosinase negative albino and homozygous positive albino can't produce tyrosinase. The combination also can't produce whatever the tyrosinase positive albino can't produce that makes it albino.

In leopard geckos, there are 4 types of albinos I believe, all of which are incompatible. Does anyone know if any of them are homozygous for more than one type? That is a question, I really don't know the answer to that.

I don't know that answer either. I do know that there is a dominant white and a recessive white in chickens, and they can be combined in one bird.

The thing is, if a corn snake is anerythristic, than technically the red pigment has been taken away. Therefore, there should only be one form of true anerythrism. Anything else is different - if they are incompatible and produce snakes with varying looks, than surely it means there is something more than taking away red pigment?

Not "taken away" but "prevented from forming". Making red pigment is not a one step process. Making a car from a heap of iron ore, rubber, and glass is not a one step process, either. There are plenty of different ways to screw up a car during assembly. There are plenty of different ways to screw up an animal's color, too. There are at least 50 different loci with mutants that affect color and pattern in mice. And mice don't have erythrin. Potentially, there are more ways to screw up a corn snake's color than a mouse's color.
 
paulh said:
The true anery phenotype is caused by the mutant named anerythristic. Charcoal is not anerythristic. The two phenotypes just happen to look similar.
Paul, I take it that you are saying, "the true Trundlefart phenotype is caused by the mutant named Trundlefart. Charcoal is not Trundlefart. The two phenotypes just happen to look similar."
 
Oh my Gosh! I ask a little question, get a few interesting responses that start to give me a migraine, go to bed, get up and work 11 hours, come home and check out my question to find it has grown into a lengthy and interesting discussion...and the migraine is back! :blowhead:

Since Rich has said that he has already tried combining caramel with lavender and is keeping the results, other than saying it is very difficult to tell what hatchling is what, a secret, I'll probably pass on the breeding, at least for awhile. My lavender female will probably be bred to my amel stripe male instead and then I'll hopefully get some lavender and opal stripes in the F2 hatchlings. I have another year to think about it as she probably won't be ready until '06. But then, I still have 2 hypo het lav females that will need a mate in '05 (my hypo het lav male died last month), so I may yet breed one of them with my butter. I know I'll get ambers in the F2, and the odd lavender gene will just be a possible bonus. Of coarse, if I see butter opals on Rich's site in a year or two selling for $1000 each, I'm just going to have to do something drastic! :madeuce:

At least I haven't yet seen or heard of anyone else doing my original pet project, which still has quite a way to go, may show some interesting results in either '05 or '06, and will NOT be mentioned again...unless the subject is brought up by someone else! :nyah:
 
snakepimp said:
I desparately want to see caramel/lavenders, I think Rich is just toying with us, or maybe he is just bluffing.


Wanna bet? :grin01:
 
Serpwidgets said:
Paul, I take it that you are saying, "the true Trundlefart phenotype is caused by the mutant named Trundlefart. Charcoal is not Trundlefart. The two phenotypes just happen to look similar."

Right.

Eventually they will characterize a mutant by the actual change in structure of a particular enzyme. That may make it a bit easier to show that the mechanism is different even if the final results look similar.
 
A picture speaks a thousand words and is proof positive.

We don't need to know which one is a Caramel Lavender. Let us guess!
 
Bring it on Rich...

Just sell me one for the price of an amel, if you don't know for sure what it is, then it can't be worth much... :wavey:

C'mon Mr. Z. give us the love, I wanna see 'em.
I would love to play the guessing game Joe suggested! (please(pretty please))

:twoguns: :crazy01:
 
Trundlefart

How many years has that been now? That name really stuck with you didn't it? If I ever produce my own morph, I think I'll pin that name on it! :sidestep:

Now to go back and reread that whole thread!
 
do you all ever get the feeling rich sometimes sits back and rubs his hands together while laughing mad scientist style?

ok who am i kidding, i doubt he ever has time to "sit back"

PS~what is a trundlefart?
 
So Pirate55 said:
PS~what is a trundlefart?
It is an extremely rare Corn Snake, that can be substituted for any morph, when the names we have attached to some of them can be confusing at times in discussion.

It was said that a Charcoal Corn looks like an Anery Corn, but it is not and Anery Corn. Some people may have thought he meant that a Charcoal Corn is not an Anerythristic type corn and only the Anery A Corn is a true Anery, when he did not mean that. He simply meant that they are different morphs that look similar.

Many of the names we have given Corns are descriptive, like Striped Corns, but have become used as Names. Striped Motleys are Motleys with dorsal striping to me, but to someone else it may mean the crossing of the two genes, when in actuality, they are Trundlefart Motleys. Motleys with dorsal striping that has nothing at all to do with the morph Striped. It could also be Striped Motleys that has nothing to do with the Trundlefart Morph.

Bloodred Corns are not always red, but they can always be Trundlefart Corns that happen to be homo for Anery A.

This is at least my take on the rare and endangered Trundlefart Corn. I would love to hear the original story by Clint and/or Serp.
 
Back
Top