Comercialization of Corn Snakes in Texas Banned

[Dreqqus]

News listed on Kingsnake. Here are the valid links. Didn't have time to read through the 45 page pdf file, but on the list of blacklisted animals there sits pantherophis guttata.

PDF concerning new law:
New Laws
Full list of black-listed animals:
Black List

To my knowledge corn snakes are not endemic to Texas, other than the western forms(emoryi, and meallhorrum), so I am very confused as to why they would ban the sale of, what is in essence, a cultivated species(like dogs, and horses). Anyways thought this was valid news for the board and so it is posted.

 

[aztek]

 

[tom e]

News listed on Kingsnake. Here are the valid links. Didn't have time to read through the 45 page pdf file, but on the list of blacklisted animals there sits pantherophis guttata.

PDF concerning new law:
New Laws
Full list of black-listed animals:
Black List

To my knowledge corn snakes are not endemic to Texas, other than the western forms(emoryi, and meallhorrum), so I am very confused as to why they would ban the sale of, what is in essence, a cultivated species(like dogs, and horses). Anyways thought this was valid news for the board and so it is posted.

I read through the first one a little- The only reference I could see to any reptile had to do with turtles.
But yes, on the second PDF there is corn snake on the black list.. This is pretty troubling.
Are they local to any part of Texas?
They ought to have an exception as CA does for the Cali. King, seeing as it's so readily established in the pet trade..

 

[tom e]

Here's a quote, though I don't know how it applies to the 'Black List':

"To delineate permit privileges and restrictions for holders of nongame dealer permits, the change to *65.327 crates a new subsection(b)(1), which consists of new subparagraph (A) (proposed *65.327(b)), allowing nongame dealers to collect nongame wildlife from the wild; new subparagraph (B) (proposed *65.327(d)), allowing nongame dealers to sell nongame wildlife to anyone; and new subparagraph (C) (proposed*65.327(i)), which specifies that nongame dealers may acquire nongame wildlife only from other persons permitted to sell nongame wildlife in Texas or from a lawful out-of-state source. The change also creates a new subparagraph (D) in response to public comment. The department received comments from per dealers and hobbyists who stated that nongame dealers should be allowed to buy, sell, import, and export indigenous species provided those animals did not come from the wild in Texas. The department agreed with the comment. New subparagraph (D) would do the following: allow the import of indigenous species of nongame wildlife for sale, resale, or export, provided the wildlife is not released or commingled with native nongame wildlife; require the permittee to possess documentation establishing that the nongame wildlife was lawfully obtained in and transported from another state; require the permittee to notify the department within 24 hours of shipping such nongame wildlife out-of-state or receiving such nongame wildlife from out of state; and require the permittee to maintain the records acquired by the section for a period of two years and to make such records available to department employees acting within the scope of official duties."

* means I don't have that symbol on my keyboard as far as I know.

So how are you guys reading this? I'm thinking it says if you keep or breed or export corns (or any other animal on the list) you've got to have a permit and notify the state of every acquisition and sale and import and export..

 

[zwyatt]

"The department received comments from per dealers and hobbyists who stated that nongame dealers should be allowed to buy, sell, import, and export indigenous species provided those animals did not come from the wild in Texas. The department agreed with the comment. New subparagraph (D) would do the following: allow the import of indigenous species of nongame wildlife for sale, resale, or export, provided the wildlife is not released or commingled with native nongame wildlife; require the permittee to possess documentation establishing that the nongame wildlife was lawfully obtained in and transported from another state; require the permittee to notify the department within 24 hours of shipping such nongame wildlife out-of-state or receiving such nongame wildlife from out of state; and require the permittee to maintain the records acquired by the section for a period of two years and to make such records available to department employees acting within the scope of official duties."

* means I don't have that symbol on my keyboard as far as I know.

So how are you guys reading this? I'm thinking it says if you keep or breed or export corns (or any other animal on the list) you've got to have a permit and notify the state of every acquisition and sale and import and export..

I think they mean only animals indigenous to Texas would have to be documented in that way. I just moved down here and don't even know what all species are indigenous to the state. I can't stand trying to read all this stuff...you practically need a law degree to weed through it

I just hope there don't end up being too many hoops to jump through.

 

[tom e]

I think they mean only animals indigenous to Texas would have to be documented in that way. I just moved down here and don't even know what all species are indigenous to the state. I can't stand trying to read all this stuff...you practically need a law degree to weed through it

I just hope there don't end up being too many hoops to jump through.

I was thinking the same thing, only the 'black list' has pantherophis guttata written on it clear as day...
The 'white list' I haven't seen but in the other PDF it had lot's of information on it- saying that you can catch them wild for pets, but can't transport or sell them.. I'm assuming that the 'black list' which contains corns is even more restrictive...

 

[Pruddock]

I haven't heard about this yet, but I'm guessing its probably being done to protect the Kisatchie, Pantherophis g. slowinskii, corn population we have here. I'm not sure though, I haven't read it. Somebody who would definitly know is KJUN, he's really strict and knowledgable about all of the major herpetocultural laws in Texas.

 

[KJUN]

The white list laws says "these animals you CAN breed/sell/own in excess of 6" with a collector or dealer's permit. (The permit's do different things, but breeders would typically need the $60 dealer's permit.) Animals NOT on the black list but native to the state CAN be owned (6 or less per person), but there is NO commercial activity allowed. No selling, etc.

The states in their infinite wisdom just made a black list for some reason. That list, it SEEMS, was supposed to be each and every nongame species in the state that is NOT on the white list. Mirror image, right? Somehow, the snakes in east Texas are approved on the white list under "E. slowinskii" and then outlawed because they are called "P. guttata" on the black list. (Yes, I know that is misspelled, but they did it wrong on the list!)

Same snake called by two different names: one name is legal and the other is not. Stupid, and that is probably NOT the intent of the legislature. Still, the letter of the law makes it illegal to own over 6 or sell E. guttata even though it is not a native of Texas. That's what counts - and it isn't good. We are working on seeing what can be done, what is intended, and what WILL be done!

KJ

 

[KJUN]

Below is a copy of an email sent to some higher up TPWD staff at HQ. I'm waiting to see how/if I get a reply.
KJ


****************************************

FYI....

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Texas Parks and Wildlife "Black List" ~ CORN SNAKES
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:39:28 -0500
From: KJ Lodrigue, Jr.
To: [snip]
References:


Good evening:

There seems to be some poor understanding and bad information in relation to the new "black list" entered in to the regulations. Pantherophis is listed on one list, and Elaphe is on the second list. There are also misspellings in the scientific names of some of the snakes of concern. To avoid all confusion, I will solely use the genus name Elaphe.

Prior to 1996, the "East Texas Cornsnake" populations were considered Emory Ratsnakes (E. emoryi or E. g. emoryi). In 1996, a re-evaluation occurred which proposed that they be considered a dark race of cornsnakes (E. guttata or E. g. guttata). In 2002, a molecular study subdivided the west Louisiana and east Texas populations into a unique species called Elaphe slowinskii, or Slowinski's Cornsnake. E. guttata was found to not occur much west of the Mississippi River. All "Texas cornsnakes" were considered E. slowinskii and not E. guttata. Obviously, TPWD recognizes this distinction because E. slowinskii is on the white list. The E. slowinskii, or Slowinski's Cornsnake, in east Texas can be legally sold in Texas.

The new black list says cornsnakes can not be sold, but those are considered exotic to Texas as long as the white list calls the population in east Texas E. slowinskii. In other words, the same exact snakes are called by two different scientific names in your regulations: one is legal to sell and the other is illegal to sell. As far as cornsnakes being exotic and still illegal to sell, there is no social or biological reason to single out cornsnakes for prohibition while keeping numerous other exotics legal to breed and sell in Texas. The idea of protecting an exotic species from collection within the state - or outlawing cornsnakes because they are exotic while allowing more potentially dangerous exotics to be sold within Texas - is illogical. I'm sure this has to be a mistake.

The deleterious effects from outlawing the sale of cornsnakes in Texas - without actually protecting any native populations - are large. Thousands, or even tens of thousands, of hobbyists maintain in excess of 6 captive bred cornsnakes. All of these people would potentially be breaking the law now. Every pet store that sells reptiles almost definitely has cornsnakes available during most of the year. Every pet store in Texas would suffer financial losses with the regulations as written. Numerous Texas residents - not counting non-residents that travel to Texas to buy and sell at Texas reptile expositions - would suffer serious financial harm by the prevention of the sale of captive bred cornsnakes within the state of Texas.

I hope this is just an oversight and can be quickly corrected. I'd be more than happy to provide any further information - including the actual citations - mentioned above. I've copied this email to [removed by KJ].


Thank you for your time,
KJ Lodrigue, Jr.

[Text removed by KJ.]

 

[Pruddock]

"you must spread some reputation around before giving it to KJUN again"

 

[KJUN]

"Domestic" mice are on the black list, too!!!

A copy of a second email I just sent!
KJ

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Texas Parks and Wildlife "Black List" ~ CORN SNAKES
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 11:24:48 -0500
From: KJ Lodrigue, Jr.
To:
CC:
References:


Good morning, Aaron:

I've been going over the black list, and I just noticed that House Mouse (Mus musculus) is now black listed, too. That means every laboratory breeding facility, every mouse breeding facility for the pet trade, and almost every pet store in Texas is soon going to be in violation of the law for selling common house mice? I can't even begin to estimate how many Texans possess in excess of of 6 live mice (not counting frozen mice for food items of pet species). Obviously, this is another exotic pet species being black listed for no valid biological or social reason. The list does not state which subspecies is/are black listed, so it is assumed that all "pet mice" are now a black listed species, correct?

I noticed that Mediterranean Geckos are still not on the white list nor on the black list. These are exotics, so TPWD doesn't regulate them even though they are still established in Texas. That is similar to the House Mouse, which you are black listing. Cornsnakes aren't established in Texas, but they are still black listed. These discrepancies are confusing, and they will be deleterious to tens of thousands of Texans.

I'm assuming that House mice (and deer mice, for that matter) are not meant to be on the black list. What, if anything, is being done to correct this situation? Where do we stand at this time?

Thanks in advance for your time,
KJ Lodrigue, Jr.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

So bottom line as of right now is that I'm breaking the law by having 20+ snakes and selling their offspring? Should I be applying for one of these dealer permits?

This law does seem like a giant idiotic move...

 

[KJUN]

So bottom line as of right now is that I'm breaking the law by having 20+ snakes and selling their offspring? Should I be applying for one of these dealer permits?

This law does seem like a giant idiotic move...

What types of snakes? If corns, you didn't need it prior to these NEW laws. The new law, unless correct, goes into effect in ~2 weeks. The new laws make it illegal PERIOD. If you have white listed species, then you are breaking the law since 1Sept07.

 

[tom e]

Is it possible they put the cornsnake on the black list purposely to keep cornsnakes from getting out into the slowinskii gene pool? Like they are trying to keep them out of the state to protect the native animal? I'm not defending them, just wondering if that's their reasoning..

 

[KJUN]

If so, why not outlaw exotic E. obsoleta, L. getula, Pitouphis sp., etc. Why single out cornsnakes? I've been in contact with TPWD, and I've been told it was an accident. I've been informed that they are hoping to take corrective measures at the next commission meeting (unknown date). If that is done, no worries unless some LE tries to enforce it between then and now (unlikely, but I'm waiting to hear more). If the commission does not pass the corrective measures, then we are in serious trouble. I do NOT believe the commission will reject any corrections brought to them at the next meeting. We just need to hope the RIGHT corrective measurements are taken.

I feel like TPWD has been honest with me on this matter.
KJ

 

[tom e]

I see, if they told you it's an accident then that's a different thing. I like how you're keeping on them though! Hope it works out for you all..

 

[a_god_s]

Great job KJUN. I hope you don't mind but I had to share with friends... some are in in TX and they needed to know. Keep up the good work!

 

[KJUN]

Please share! Thanks. Tell them to watch the thread - when I get more information (probably early next week), it will be posted here.
KJ

 

[a_god_s]

For sure - BTW Heinlein is the bomb and he was right.

 

[KJUN]

For sure - BTW Heinlein is the bomb and he was right.

Yes, I certainly agree. I used to have his "You live and learn - or you don't live long" followed by Burrough's "I still Live!" as my signature.....lol.

My wife's favorite is "Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house." and "Rub her feet." LOL.

I still like his "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."

Ahhh, I could go on and on....... Love Heinlein.
KJ