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Coming Soon to my Backyard.

I read your posts, and explored your position, did you read any of mine?

Here's your wonderful Millan:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3252/Overview#tab-Videos/05198_00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfZMVzckClE

E-collars are bad, but serious esophogus and trachea crushing choking is okay. Interesting.

D80
When your dealing with "Red Zone" cases you have to gain control of the dog. If done by the average person, it will be done wrong due to lack of experience and technique, but Cesar did it correctly. He didn't choke the dog, and the leash was always high-up on the dogs neck. If it were choking it wouldn't have continued to leap, and curbing dog aggression takes hands on training. One tool I use to prevent the dog slipping free or choking is this; http://www.puplife.com/collections/lupine-collars. It's a Lupine Collar, and it has a stopping point so it doesn't close around to tight. It's the perfect tool, and I would recommend it. As for the 2nd video, that dog was fine, and pinning is a consequence for the charge. He never once lost his cool, and you'll notice the heavy breathing Cesar was doing afterwards. He was holding his breath at points to remain in the same mental and physical state. The less your temper changes the less fight you encounter. It takes a lot of mental energy to counter that toxicity and remain calm, but that's what you have to do. As for the 3rd dog, when your doing things like grooming an aggressive dog, you have to continue to groom through the aggression. That's why most dogs are so persistent, because when the bite the human stops, so that's how they learn to deal with the situation. When they learn that fighting it does nothing eventually they submit. It takes a cool hand, and calm mind, but if done correctly it's what needs to be done. Cesar Millan works with the most aggressive dogs in the nation, and his techniques work for those cases. Every case where the family follows through with his plan is a success story, because he is the best dog psychologist in the world. I strongly believe that, because he's helped me turn a dog aggressive puppy into an immensely well behaved 2 and a half year old dog. No more food aggression, no more fear, no more anxiety, nothing, and the dog could not be any healthier or happier.

You see the problem with that is, it just always so happens that you and your brother have very similar opinions and always seem to post in the same threads, and it usually is around the same time as each other. Many of us really do not believe that yall are in fact two separate people. At the very least yall's ideas are similar enough to each other that we really do not think it matters if yall are two different people. So, thus you get: Rickael, Ricky/Michel, ect......

Yeah he has a job.
Oh, I get it now!. The joke is we're the same person; How very clever!. Now I see where your dog training wisdom comes from. :bowdown:. If you want to continue with stuff like this, go right ahead, but it has zero to do with dogs, which I'm sure is ultimately your goal anyways. Take the discussion away from something your not familiar with, and focus it on something your good at. It just goes to show negativity bleeds through in all aspects in life!.
 
First off, I wanted to say congrats on the Vizla, they are like my dream dog. When I get a house, and a truck, and a.... well you get the idea! So beautiful.

As far as training goes, well I'm kind of in a pickle myself. I originally was all about positive reinforcement, until I met my current dog. He barks. A lot, all the time, at everything. Positive reinforcement training doesn't work, at all. I bought a citronella spray collar for barking. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to soon. I didn't want to get an e-collar right away, since he's only 10 pounds. I wasn't sure if it would be too much for him. Most of the e-collars are huge. I have to look more into it, to see if they make ones for smaller dogs. He has a collapsed trachea from previous owners who were too aggressive with collars, so the collar itself has to be somewhat light weight and not too large, or he will start to cough a lot. Anyway, maybe I should update later and see if the spray collar works.

Congrats again. :)
 
First off, I wanted to say congrats on the Vizla, they are like my dream dog. When I get a house, and a truck, and a.... well you get the idea! So beautiful.

As far as training goes, well I'm kind of in a pickle myself. I originally was all about positive reinforcement, until I met my current dog. He barks. A lot, all the time, at everything. Positive reinforcement training doesn't work, at all. I bought a citronella spray collar for barking. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm going to soon. I didn't want to get an e-collar right away, since he's only 10 pounds. I wasn't sure if it would be too much for him. Most of the e-collars are huge. I have to look more into it, to see if they make ones for smaller dogs. He has a collapsed trachea from previous owners who were too aggressive with collars, so the collar itself has to be somewhat light weight and not too large, or he will start to cough a lot. Anyway, maybe I should update later and see if the spray collar works.

Congrats again. :)
I'm sorry to hear that about your dogs previous owners. It's unfortunate to have that kind of health issue for any dog, but as far as collars I'd recommend this;http://www.puplife.com/collections/lupine-collars. It's a Lupine Brand Martingale collar. They come in different sizes, and they eliminate choking while giving you much more control than a regular collar. Their on sale for around 13$, and if they ever ruin just send it in and they'll give you a new one free of charge. How they make a profit, I have no idea, but they are the best collars on the market IMO. Here's a photo, their pretty trendy and have loads of different pattern options/colors.


30655_medium.jpg
 
My finger's gettin' itchy. Please leave the personal bickering out of Brent's thread. In fact, it would be cool if it could be left out of all threads.

Cool dog. I really dig Viczlas and Weimariners. I'm not sure if I can spell either breed name, but I like them.
 
Brent, I didn't train for a job, I trained for a hobby, for showing. Obedience up to putting a CDX on a pug, and he knew all the exercises for a UD, but wasn't reliable to do EVERY one perfectly EVERY time, so I never attempted that title. I also put CDs on a couple other pugs, an English cocker, a rottie, a treeing walker, as well as tracked with but didn't ever go for a title on the CDX pug and the English cocker. I learned to train with a combination of positive reinforcement and corrections via training collar. Crank and Yank, they call that these days...

This video intrigues me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEko6Fl04Ts&feature=related

I don't know very much about clicker training. I don't have a clicker. This is quite similar to how I used to teach "heel," except I would say "watch me" and reward with a bit of freeze dried liver, and I started with the dog on lead. This video makes it look so easy. I'm sure Bella would be very motivated- I intend to try it. Some time.

So back to force training. When I trained my pug to retrieve, we used the ear pinch method. The trainer told us that you could teach retrieving as a fun game all you wanted, but what happened when you were at a show and the dog just didn't feel like it? If you trained using the ear pinch, the dog knew that if you said "take it" and he didn't, you had a consequence that would cause him to open his mouth and be forced to pick up the dumbbell. I'm sure there is a positive reinforcement method, too, but is it guaranteed that your dog will fetch 100% of the time? I don't know the answer. I know my dogs hated that aspect of training, but it was a quick lesson, and they never seemed to forget, and if they did, it could be refreshed quickly.

My brother-in-law trained bird dogs, professionally. He used a shock collar, as they called them back in the day, at some point in their training. He had the lowest speaking command voice I've ever heard anyone use with a dog, even at a distance, and his dogs always seemed extremely alert and anxious to please.
 
I will admit upfront I did not read past part of page 3. I know for a fact the best dog I had was my long haired german shepherd. I got her as a 9 week old puppy and she was trained with discipline that was not all praise and treats.
I have watched many shows showing the treats method and my question has ALWAYS been. how are you teaching them to respond to you if you don't have treats to offer?

I've had dogs my whole life and never did we train any of them with a treat based discipline method. They were given praise when they did something good and were let it known when they did something bad. It's the alpha thing. Alpha's dictate good and bad behavior and don't do it with a little piece of cheese.
 
Beyootiful dogs! Can't wait to see your pick Brent. I've only ever heard positive things about that breed. I like the look, kind of what I think of when I picture a "dog shape".
Thread got a little carried away? Always the same people. I must remember to comment early next time, it's less reading that way.
I read the entire thread, yeah I know. Pretty sure this said it right here about the e-collars, and pretty sure someone didn't read it and think about it before responding, maybe I can help:

Spot on Alan, some people chose to see only what they want to see.

I'm certainly not a "dog trainer". I've trained every dog I have cared for with positive reinforcement and it has worked well for both me and the dogs but I've never had to train a dog to work under those conditions. It must be very satisfying when you get to the point where can work together with an animal that well. I see footage of dogs working like that and they look so intent on their job, and so eager to do it.
We're going to need some pics of that later, like Mike's? I guess maybe you guys don't really have time to take pics while you're working them but I'd like to see that.

You know, I would love to get some pics of them working, but like you said, it is hard to do when you are also hunting. But, here are some pics of some working dogs I took pictures of last quail season: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79700 If you notice, everyone of them is wearing a e-collar, and all are well trained to do their job.

Robyler, if pandas show up, I blame you, and you will be put "on the list".

Im with you Brent, If I see pandas, said panda posters will be "listed".

Thanks alan. Kinda sorry you had to wade through some extra garbage along the way, but I think the discussion was relatively worthwhile.

You know, I really did not say it to start a discussion, I was merely recommending that you invest in a good e-collar, they are worth their weight in gold. But like you, it was some good discussion.

Technically, it is only PART of a cute puppy.

Its still all a dog, its just missing a little part, not even an important part. What medical benefit is leaving the tip of the tail?

If an engineer messes up on a bridge just a little bit so it doesn't fall down for 2 or 3 weeks instead of immediately, does he still get partial credit? Of course not. I'm not an engineer, but I still don't give partial credit. It is ALL or NOTHING. Like when you buy a puppy: you should get all of the puppy or none of it.

Hey Brent, did they at least give you the tail tip? Maybe you do have all of one puppy if you put the parts together.....lol.

I wonder if I could get a build a puppy kit?

I don't think you every answered Mike's question. Do you only have PART of a son? And did you save the 'bits'? ;)

He has it in a jar on the mantle. LOL :punch:
 
Treat rewards on only used in the beginning stages to more quickly reinforce good behavior. Then becomes less frequent, and the dog will eventually require no treat reward at all, but there will always be praise. Positive reinforcement isn't all about treat rewards, it is about creating a positive association to good behavior through praise and other such rewards.
It also doesn't ignore discipline, it simply removes all of the harsh methods of used in disciplining, such as shock collars, pinch collars, yelling, beating, etc... Dogs will always aim to please, and will effectively behave if the commands are clear and consistent. There of course still has to be a pack leader, the leader just earns the position through consistent authority and positive motivation techniques.
Every dog responds to training differently, so positive reinforcement training must adapt to the individual dog and handler. For my dog treats aren't a primary motivation, 1. because even a sirloin tip wouldn't distract her while she's heavily distracted, and 2. because her allergies prevent the type of treats that would motivate her enough. She does get treat rewards occasionally, but only to solidly reinforce new training techniques, and commands. She is highly intelligent, almost to a fault. As I'm sure most hard headed bird dogs can be, or other extremely focused dogs. Treats have become relatively boring to her, so I have had to adapt as to not lose the positive motivation. Now her reward is done through praise and physical activity. Her only effectively powerful motivation now is playing Frisbee, and going for rides, walks, etc.. So in order for her to enjoy these things, she must behave. We do not go out to play until she is in a relaxed position, and only keep walking if she has a loose lead. This brings a positive association to my desired behavior, and she has learned with extreme effectiveness that behaving = having fun. I can't teach her positive behavior through harsh negative consequence, it only reinforces that the tools are in control and not myself. And instills a fear and aloofness, as opposed to self control and confidence.
I don't want my dog to not pull on a leash because she will get pronged, I want her to walk on a loose leash because I am in control, and won't allow her to get her way until she behaves in an appropriate way. The same with playing in the yard. I don't want her to stay in a perimeter out of fear of shock, I want to teach her that it is only exciting to be outside if she stays within the boundaries I set.
I am truly trying to share my input, that is why I'm explaining myself with such long posts. If I was simply just trying to disagree, or stir the pot, I wouldn't spend so much time thinking out my posts, I would just react through emotion. I grew up with family dogs, and positive reinforcement was an uncommon practice. But when I got my German Shepherd, and was old and responsible enough to fully provide for her, I really wanted to do the best by her that I could. The training that I have been given, and learned, has been a life changing experience for me. Dealing with a highly reactive dog, a German Shepherd at that, I have learned that there is no other way than patience and calm leadership. My dog would be a disaster if she had ended up in a home that used negative reinforcement, I know this because my previous trainer had a client with a litter mate of Ciana, same basic issues, but far worse off due to improper training methods of the owners.
So I feel that if I can create the desired behavior out of a dog like Ciana through positive reinforcement and appropriate, non harsh discipline methods, than it is a training that can be followed by any dog.
If you could have a perfectly behaved dog through positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement training, which would you choose? I am saying that any dog can be effectively trained through positive reinforcement, so why would someone choose the way of negative reinforcement? especially seeing it is often the cause of unstable, and fearful dogs.

PS. As for the docked tail. I've heard it is docked because it prevents future injury, which can be very painful in the future. Is this actually done for medical reasons, or because it is more aesthetically pleasing? Either way is fine, no debate here, I am just curious. The only docking I hate is the ear cropping, it looks awful, and is often used as a means to make the dog better in fights, or to look more intimidating.
 
You know, I would love to get some pics of them working, but like you said, it is hard to do when you are also hunting. But, here are some pics of some working dogs I took pictures of last quail season: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79700 If you notice, everyone of them is wearing a e-collar, and all are well trained to do their job.
Cool pics. This reminds me of an animal planet show I watched on Saluki's. They are a lean dog, similar shape to a Greyhound, and are common in the middle east. They treat them like royalty, literally. They eat better than the humans, and live in doggy hotels. This man trained them to hunt, like actually track and kill game by itself, using only positive reinforcement as training. He had a falcon, which he would release to search out the game, rabbits, fox, etc... It would draw them from the bushes, and the dogs would chase them down and kill them. It was absolutely incredible, the Saluki is slightly slower than a Greyhound, but has much more stamina, and can travel very long distances to hunt down prey. In a particular region the killing of game was illegal, so this guy had the Hawk flush out the game, the dogs would chase for extremely long distances, and at the sound of a whistle the dogs would retreat, as to not kill the animal. This was all done through positive reinforcement, and it was the most amazing dog program I've watched, you should check it out if you ever come across the program, it was on animal planet.
 
Okay, that's just ewww.
I know! Kinda like keeping the tail tip of a dog.

When your dealing with "Red Zone" cases you have to gain control of the dog. yadda yadda yadda
Yeah? Uh-huh. Okay. Right. Yes. I see. Mmmm. Great. Anything else?

Brent Congrats on the pup. We you get him.

Do they make an e-keyboard?
Thanks Jeff. 19th of Sept. is pickup day. If only they made an e-board!

First off, I wanted to say congrats on the Vizla, they are like my dream dog. When I get a house, and a truck, and a.... well you get the idea! So beautiful.
Thanks, I understand, a full size truck is next on the list. ;)

Cool dog. I really dig Viczlas and Weimariners. I'm not sure if I can spell either breed name, but I like them.
We were leaning towards the Weimaraner at first, but after my wife did her research, the Vizsla was the one! She's hooked on Chi's now herself and was pretty uppity when she read after the fact that the Vizsla personality is similar to a Chi. :rolleyes:

Brent, I didn't train for a job, I trained for a hobby,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Seems as though a little of this and a little of that worked great. Pretty much what I was expecting to hear and pretty much what I am expecting to use. ;)

I've had dogs my whole life and never did we train any of them with a treat based discipline method. They were given praise when they did something good and were let it known when they did something bad. It's the alpha thing. Alpha's dictate good and bad behavior and don't do it with a little piece of cheese.
I agree. What's even more interesting is that Millan fellow trains via the dominance method (along with choking . . . ) and is greatly criticized for it! ;)

Treat rewards on only used in the beginning stages to more quickly reinforce good behavior. yadda yadda yadda
Yeah? Uh-huh. Okay. Right. Yes. I see. Mmmm. Great. Anything else?

Thanks peeps! I expect to get some update pup pics this week sometime. I'll be sure to share!
D80
 
Can't wait! I miss having puppies! You should've seen my house when my girl gave birth to 9 huge babies! By 8 weeks old they were 15lbs. Imagine that running all over your house! LOL!
 
Yeah? Uh-huh. Okay. Right. Yes. I see. Mmmm. Great. Anything else?
Actually, yes!. "Run, don't walk, to your nearest music store and pick up a copy of the new critically acclaimed Bone Thugs-N-Harmony album "Uni5: The Worlds Enemy" slated to come out this fall. All 5 members will be on it and the record will be an instant classic!!!.".:santa:
 
So, expert dog trainers, any ideas?

You make mention of "failure" or "set backs", how would you, using only "positive reinforcement", train a dog to not go up to a rattlesnake? In South Texas, Western Diamondbacks are very prevalent, it is essential to the life of the dog that they do not put their face (or other body part) in a rattlesnake's strike zone. The only way I have ever effectively seen a dog learn to flee from a rattlesnake is with the use of an e-collar and negative reinforcement. Now I am not going to say that I have seen more dogs trained than you, because well that would be arrogant of me, but I will say that I have seen many many dogs trained to avoid snakes, as well as I have trained many dogs to avoid snakes. The fact is, the only effective way to "snake break" a dog is with the use of an e-collar. A rattlesnake will very rarely give a dog a second chance.
 
Mike, does anti-snake training teach them to avoid any snake (copperhead, etc. that doesn't rattle)?
 
Mike, does anti-snake training teach them to avoid any snake (copperhead, etc. that doesn't rattle)?

In South Texas, our only concern is atrox, but there is no reason that if it did not work for other species (dogs, especially bird dogs, ID everything by smell, and different snakes do have different smells), that you could not use the very same techniques for teaching them avoid a copperhead or water moccasin.
 
In South Texas, our only concern is atrox, but there is no reason that if it did not work for other species (dogs, especially bird dogs, ID everything by smell, and different snakes do have different smells), that you could not use the very same techniques for teaching them avoid a copperhead or water moccasin.

There is no such thing as a water moccasin unless you go to the original french terms (which made its way into modern society with a WHOLE lot of ignorance attached) which means a dark WATER snake. Watersnakes are harmless, so who cares if a dog smells one? Obviously, an educated herper wouldn't embarrass themwselves by using such an erronous name for a western cottonmouth (or Florida...), so that CAN'T be what you meant.....
 
I'm pretty sure Mike was using the french term for water snake. You know, so the dog doesn't get musked. :)
 
There is no such thing as a water moccasin unless you go to the original french terms (which made its way into modern society with a WHOLE lot of ignorance attached) which means a dark WATER snake. Watersnakes are harmless, so who cares if a dog smells one? Obviously, an educated herper wouldn't embarrass themwselves by using such an erronous name for a western cottonmouth (or Florida...), so that CAN'T be what you meant.....

Actually I was talking about a chicken snake.
 
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